Eurasian Customs Union

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

I guess you need to define what "true independence" is. For me being independent means being able to provide the basics for your people (including security), and being able to make the right decisions regarding the countries future despite outside pressures. I do not see a Armenia today doing this and i do not see this happening anytime soon thus i say Armenia is not independent. Once you start taking the basic principles of independence and making them relative then you diffuse the very meaning of the term and the concept thus making it meaningless. Independent or not i do agree with your concluding remark Hakob that we do need unity but what it is that you are united about is just as important. There is some degree of power that you can earn if you prove that the good and right thing can be done. If Armenia despite all the obstacles in her way is able to form a society that is fair, just and prosperous then even Russia might start taking Qs and doing the same. If all you want to do is watch gangster movies and imitate their lifestyle then that is all you will ever be. Build a good society, infrustructure, government, and you will see that others will be imitating you for a change and not the other way around.

I am not looking at independence in terms of some standard or defining points. Not as some international comparative ranking.
I am looking at it from our perseptions and what we really want and are able to achieve. How much of our ideals are based on economical motivations and how much they are based on rigid ideologies.
Technically countries like Liberia and Somali are more independent than Armenia. But I doubt that any Armenian would want anything like it.
We like to talk about Switzerland. But is Armenian society redy to accept an individual's right and responcibility to own and maintain firearms and become part of national militias? Are we ready for anything like that? Or would this turn streets of Yerevan into mayhem like in Liberia?
In blockade and cold winters of 1992-94, while talking about europe, why didn't we form warmed up shelters in neighborhood schools like people did in England in WW2?
See, those societies have achieved some levels of cohesive public mentality that we still have to learn and evolve to achieve.
Nobody talks about this kind of things or how important it is on the road to independence.
Nobody from outside will hand us independence. It is not only about fight and war or political achievement. It is also a state of achievement in individual's mentality in and towards society.
I am not saying that our society is worse or better then any other's. Just a lot needs to be done within us.
I know my people. We did not have the environment (under ottoman, russian empire and communism ) to evolve as a national society.
But if we did on the level of how much we did as individuals, then nobody would be able to pull any gas or blockade or association cartoon comedies on us.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

Is interesting that the author mentions Switzerland as an example Armenia should try to follow. In another post in another thread I was also comparing the historical similarities of Switzerland to Armenia (in response to some idiot who said Armenia is nothing at all like Switzerland).


ARMENIA MAY PAY HEAVY PRICE FOR CHOOSING CUSTOMS UNION - EXPERT

12:15 ~U 16.12.13

In an interview with Tert.am, state administration expert Harutyun
Mesrobyan presented his forecasts on Armenia's decision to join the
Russian-led Customs Union. He stressed the need of understanding
the expectations and the possible losses. The expert believes that
Armenia is immersed in a permanent crisis.

Mr Mesrobyan, what benefits will the Customs Union membership offer
Armenia?

I would pose the question the following way: what expectations do
we have? What is the price, and what are the expected losses? Once
we have the answer to such questions, we will be able to evaluate
the situation. When we speak only about expectations, that's only a
negative or positive PR by different politicians or civic activists.

As for the price, it is only about sovereignty. If the prices is big -
and I am sure it will be - then all our key problems, including the
Artsakh [Nagorno-Karabakh] issue will be exposed to a higher risk.

Armenia is weakening its independence by every year, as it is, we
now turn out to be moving ahead along the same path.

Customs Union or the European family? Which do you think is the
right choice?

The Russians have a proverb saying, "Choose the lesser of the two
evils". The Anglo-Saxons have a different saying, which is definitely
close to my ideology. They choose none. That wording is a proof of
being free from the slave psychology, because once we start making
a choice, we are already ready to at least partially give in.

I can bring Switzerland's example. Switzerland is in the middle of
Europe; it isn't part of any alliance. The result is that Switzerland
hasn't seen a war since the start of the 19th century, whereas Europe
saw two world wars, and Napoleon's invasion.

What's your evaluation of Armenia's current state administration
system?

Our political arena demonstrated its obvious insolvency in the past
20 years [since gaining independence]. That made people absolutely
indifferent because those politicians or parties beating their breast
eventually formed different alliances with different forces, including
the pro-government ones. Hence, the word party itself drives many to
negative emotions, causing nothing but allergy.

What about the civil society?

When the party domain began decomposing de facto, civic initiatives
naturally appeared on the area. The start was quite promising,
"Trchkan", "Mashtots Park". The logic was likely to have a continuation
and gain momentum, but we unfortunately have a curse, the negative
selection. That's the situation when the higher your position, the
more the likelihood that an unworthy person will be awarded it.

And that negative selection did not pass round our civil society
either. So now, actually it is an absolute winner in both the
government hierarchy and on the political arena, as well as in the
civil society; because the political arena exhausted itself in the
past 20 years. And that's a threat that the civil society too, will
be exhausted in two years. The negative selection has taken its roots
so deep that it has accelerated the decomposition processes.

A proof of it is that the people do not massively join the civic
rebellions. They don't believe those who beat their breasts most of
all. Sowhen they start criticizing the people in such circumstances,
I think that it isn't moral, to say the least. Once the people feel
that those raising the flag are pure people with spotless track
record and, why not, ready to sacrifice life, they will stand up for
struggle. But as long as the people don't, that remains the biggest
slap on the face of both the political and the civic circles. They
cannot do a good job and accuse the people of failing to join them.

What is the expected outcome?

In early 2009 I drew the curve of Armenia's crisis. The administration
system has a methodology. When I prepared the curve, I obtained a
result predicting the worst scenario until the autumn of 2014 and the
best scenario until the autumn of 2016 when Armenia will be facing
shocks. As to what they will be like, I cannot say. But there will
be factors provoking them. We must pull ourselves together as quickly
as possible. Only a force majeure or a major development not planned
globally may weaken that forecast.

Armenian News - Tert.am

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

It was mentioned that "wop" was a derogatory term for Italians in the USA during the early 20th century.
Although it was perceived by the general population as derogatory & used that way too on many occasions, in fact it meant" with out papers" referring to an illegal immigrant.

Really? Didn't know that. A bigger really is that Arty-farty has actually told me something I did not know.

[Serjik]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

Bro, you make the most sense here in this thread. I used to be anti Russian myself until I started reading up on serious politics and history. I now just dont see how Armenia can survive without Russian friendship. This vrej1915 is a wacko for constantly posting info from lragir which is more popular in Azerbaijan than Armenia. and I dont care if he is a NKR war veteran, which I highly doubt btw. But who says soldiers have to be smart?

I guess you need to define what "true independence" is. For me being independent means being able to provide the basics for your people (including security), and being able to make the right decisions regarding the countries future despite outside pressures. I do not see a Armenia today doing this and i do not see this happening anytime soon thus i say Armenia is not independent. Once you start taking the basic principles of independence and making them relative then you diffuse the very meaning of the term and the concept thus making it meaningless. Independent or not i do agree with your concluding remark Hakob that we do need unity but what it is that you are united about is just as important. There is some degree of power that you can earn if you prove that the good and right thing can be done. If Armenia despite all the obstacles in her way is able to form a society that is fair, just and prosperous then even Russia might start taking Qs and doing the same. If all you want to do is watch gangster movies and imitate their lifestyle then that is all you will ever be. Build a good society, infrustructure, government, and you will see that others will be imitating you for a change and not the other way around.

[Haykakan]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

I guess you need to define what "true independence" is. For me being independent means being able to provide the basics for your people (including security), and being able to make the right decisions regarding the countries future despite outside pressures. I do not see a Armenia today doing this and i do not see this happening anytime soon thus i say Armenia is not independent. Once you start taking the basic principles of independence and making them relative then you diffuse the very meaning of the term and the concept thus making it meaningless. Independent or not i do agree with your concluding remark Hakob that we do need unity but what it is that you are united about is just as important. There is some degree of power that you can earn if you prove that the good and right thing can be done. If Armenia despite all the obstacles in her way is able to form a society that is fair, just and prosperous then even Russia might start taking Qs and doing the same. If all you want to do is watch gangster movies and imitate their lifestyle then that is all you will ever be. Build a good society, infrustructure, government, and you will see that others will be imitating you for a change and not the other way around.

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

Haykakan. I agree about all your points about our internal problems, but I beg to differ about independence. A true independence is very possible for us, but we have to accept the fact that historically and specially nowadays it is very relative value for every country. Not having our own government for many centuries, we have become accustomed in thinking about independence in absolute terms. That is why we are very confused between our ideals and reality at hand. For that reason, Armenian society has turned it's attention to outside factors and away from real internal problems. That is why there is all kind of criticisms flying between factions including diaspora. In all those years for example all kinds of criticisms and accusations have been exchanged between diaspora and Motherland, but real dialogs are still pending about corruption or policies. That is why our goverment and diaspora or internal groups see each other as adversaries. We have not learned yet to communicate with each other free of ideologies or stereotyping. We have not yet christalised a singular national ideology from which we would derive our answers to internal and external problems. Independence and united and free Armenia are great and true ideas(values). But they are not enough to sustain a unified social and economical environment. They do not answer or help shape the future Armenian citizen. I hope that many years of independence, however incomplete it may be, can bring us into unification in social and economical spheres and most important , who and what are the identity and responsibilities of citizens of independent Armenia.

[Haykakan]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

Vrej those rose colored sunglasses never do leave your eyes do they. You claim Armenia would be better off wo Russia yet neither you nor anyone else has ever presented a scenario where Armenia even exists at all wo Russia. I think both Hakob and Vrej bring up good points about assigning blame to ourselves for much of the corruption that is reality in Armenia but the true culprit is never identified in this regard in neither ones argument. In Armenias case there are two distinct problems to deal with 1) is the strategic situation and 2) is the socio-economic situation. While these problems seem distinct they are very much linked in reality for we cannot choose contradictory paths regarding them. In reality it is sad to say that Armenia simply has no real choices to pic from (despite what Vrez and the Raffi Hovhanessians of the world will tell you). The dream of Armenian independence is exactly that a DREAM. Do you think Georgia is independent because it forced a war with Russia? It is as dependent on the west as we are on Russia and this is despite having ports and turkish friends. Instead of blaming the russians or the eu it may be far more productive to identify the true culprit that is behind the illness at hand. We can only do so much about our geostrategic situation but we can do a lot about the kind of society we forge. The truth is that it is values that determine the kind of society we have and no i am not talking about christian nor family values i am talking about simple human values. The only reason we have oligarchs and corruption is because we have grown to value money and possessions above all else.The truth is that such societies are sick and suffer from a huge array of syptoms from anxiety and depression to crime, disease, hunger.. Armenia can be a good place to live despite the blockade and regardless of whose orbit it is under and all it takes to achieve this is to value ourselves as human beings rather then commodities, consumers, $$$$.. The truth is that even the oligarchs would be better off in a society that was more equal and valued humanity then they are now. There is not much of a point in talking about our geostrategic situation since we really do not have a choice in the matter (assuming the existence of Armenia is nonnagotiable as it should be) and since our socioeconomic situation is linked with our geostrategic situation there is not much of a decision to make about which side to choose there either. The difference to be made is on the domestic end of the socioeconomic situation of Armenia. If we can start placing value on our fellow Armenians then perhaps less of them would be willing to leave Armenia. The sickness of oligarchy is an inherent part of capitalism and it exist in all capitalist countries because capitalism values capital and not people. If you want to change things in Armenia (or anywhere else for that matter) you have to start with the basic values. A society such as Armenia where gangster movies get top rating you will never get progress until the people who watch those shows come to realize that there is something very wrong with this picture, that we do not want gangster values in our families and communities and we do not find such a lifestyle desirable or even entertaining. Changing our values from embracing $$ to embracing each other is a very powerful force quite capable of transforming society towards a much better country. People like Vrej will bring up a a very poor argument that the gangster values were instilled in Armenia via Russia and thus Russia is to blame...they somehow manage to disregard the fact that gangsters are a western phenomenon to begin with and an infestation which has taken over the entire western world. Gangsters are not just common street gangs they are also bankers and politicians. The USA and England have been ruled by such gangsters for a long time now and it so happens that inequality, depression and anxiety have increased in these societies in direct proportion the hold they have over these societies. The arguments here can go back and forth until all involved are blue in the face but since you guys did touch on the actual problem i figured i would make a contribution to the issue.

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

It's useless to debate a solution that was never on the table.
Yet, comparing EU with CCCP is funny....

Yet again, it's useless to debate history with ifs... but I feel no gratitude towards Imperial Russia, even more so to Lenin/Stalin regime.
But for the honesty towards past, let's correct one well propaganded soviet lie: even if it is true that England (a traditional anti Armenian power), via Gen Wilson's decision did favor Azerbaijan in Artsakh, it is THE SOVIET UNION that decided the bondaries of RSA, offering Artsakh and Nakhitchevan to Azerbaijan, after a belly dance with Ataturk!!
Even if Germany was the ally of independent Georgia, as well as Turkey as a matter of fact (see Nationalist Georgia's direct role in the Armenian Genocide, in destroying Javakhk's population, "Pakurian Tragedy"), it is yet the same SOVIET UNION who draw today's borders, offering Javakhk + Treghk to Stalin's fatherland....

Last: France has huge guilt, yet deserving at least a pardon request on Kilikia.... but compared to Russia, it is nothing!
Every Russian move, systematically, ended by a tragedy for us, since Katherine the Great.
Main Reason: or Russophylia was granted, while others favors needed a price... at our expense.
The day we will speak to Russians, the way Azaris do, we may be saved....

I perfectly understand what you mean by "the way Azeris do".
For them russia has no commonality. For us, and maybe that is our problem, russia is a fellow christian state.
By the way we have shown this kind of weakness, I'd say "odaramolutyun", towards any christian state, including european.
It is from our internal unity or bonding, that any christian state is looked like that.
For russia, my feelings are not a gratitude but rather come from analising our geopolitical situation.
Remember it is not ordinary Armenians that have blind love for russia, but as far back as I can see our elite or corupted elite has relied on russia in strengthening up. I am sure if we turned to europe, big part of us would for rather personal advancement.
If and when we become internally balanced and monolithic nation, instead of Arevelahay, Akhpar, Barskahay, Kharabakhtsi("turk" what a way to insult and alienate one another), maybe then we will stop our odaramolutyun.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

I consider european union the same as customs union. just more wealthy and open. By becoming a member, a country gives up economic, social, strategic suvereinity the same in both.
You have to abide and exept financial controll, changes that could be contrary to your own national customs and identity. You will conduct your external and internal policies with the will of Brussells and laws accepted in common community just same as from moscow. All the same.
Am I missing a point?
I blame EU in situation in Greece or Romania because it enforces policies and machinations of financial establishment with destroying said countries ethnic bastions, like villages, religions, changes ethnic composition. What diffrence is there between soviet destraction of ethnic identity or assimillation into dominating ethnic group because of ideology or EU's because of ideology plus economy(money or prosperity bait) if the end result is the same?
When someone speaks about how the youth has emigrated in those countries in search of work in other countries, it reminds me of our youth in russia.
EU consists of dominating trio, Germany, France and England, dictating others of how to live and work and where.
I look at this trio and remember the past as you do. Germany helping turkey in Armenian genocide. France giving Cilikia to turks(1938) and England, Javakh to georgians(helping to win in war).
For me introducing and forcing gey rights and parades in Yerevan or forcing sexual education classes (just like it is obligatory for all EU members) in our schools where 12 year olds are tought (whith pictures) how to copulate and use condoms, is as much moral colonialisation as communism.
And no, I don't speculate about what might happen in future. I look where our arms come from. Why aren't turkey and baku restarting the war yet. and have diffrent opinion about russia for future.
As you say russia that has free hands. That I think depends from us and from situation in world politics.
And yes, I look back at our history and see that if not for russia or czarist colonialization(I know that makes you unhappy at least) there would be no Armenia. Turkey would absorb and eliminate Armenians from those territories just like it did with the rest.
I don't consider as if EU membership was offered to us. It is the Mouradian/Lragir group behaving like it was offered. Just signing an association agreement has no security guarantees at all.
Anyway what was going to is happening. No matter how much we disagree or agree. At least now maybe opposition should start concentrating a fight against corruption because that opportunity might be lost one day too.

It's useless to debate a solution that was never on the table.
Yet, comparing EU with CCCP is funny....

Yet again, it's useless to debate history with ifs... but I feel no gratitude towards Imperial Russia, even more so to Lenin/Stalin regime.
But for the honesty towards past, let's correct one well propaganded soviet lie: even if it is true that England (a traditional anti Armenian power), via Gen Wilson's decision did favor Azerbaijan in Artsakh, it is THE SOVIET UNION that decided the bondaries of RSA, offering Artsakh and Nakhitchevan to Azerbaijan, after a belly dance with Ataturk!!
Even if Germany was the ally of independent Georgia, as well as Turkey as a matter of fact (see Nationalist Georgia's direct role in the Armenian Genocide, in destroying Javakhk's population, "Pakurian Tragedy"), it is yet the same SOVIET UNION who draw today's borders, offering Javakhk + Treghk to Stalin's fatherland....

Last: France has huge guilt, yet deserving at least a pardon request on Kilikia.... but compared to Russia, it is nothing!
Every Russian move, systematically, ended by a tragedy for us, since Katherine the Great.
Main Reason: or Russophylia was granted, while others favors needed a price... at our expense.
The day we will speak to Russians, the way Azaris do, we may be saved....

[Vrej1915]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

I'd like to add that nobody, russia too, cannot force us to steal and bribe the way it has been carried out in our country. It is our fault. It will make dependency feel as if slavery, financial inflow to dissapear before anything gets to us.
We are a way off before external influences can affect us good or bad. The closest and fastest fixes are right there in Armenia.

Agree.