Eurasian Customs Union

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

The following Article has been published in Huffington Post, Dec. 22 2013.
All the euroholics, that scream about "loosing suvereinity", colonialism and such, should open their eyes wide or rather staple this article on their foreheads before daydreaming about Europe in caucasus.
This article is about Greece, but europe has ruined agriculture and the economy in Bulgaria and Ruminia and others as well.
I see some euroholics are protesting about russian controll of our gas industy, an industry that allmost 100% relies on Russia supplying of what we cannot afford from someone else(there is no one else besides Iran at much higher prices). Good to resist and wish that it would be controlled by us. But if they slighly open their eyes about europe they would see that such killer controll would be on everything that Armenia has, plus destraction of Armenia's national and traditional family values.



Evaggelos Vallianatos Adjunct professor of environmental analysis, Pitzer College
Why Are Greek Children Going Hungry?
Posted: 04/22/2013 11:39 am
Follow
European Union , Hunger , IMF , Greece Debt Crisis , Marshall Plan , America , Troika , World News
SHARE THIS STORY

Some of the Greeks I talk to on the phone tell me Greece now is reliving some of the harsh realities of WWII German occupation when hundreds of thousands of Greeks starved to death. Nazi Germany included famine in its extermination policies.

Once again, in 2013, a huge number of Greeks are without work. Many of these people are so impoverished they eat sporadically and, some of them, go hungry. Increasingly, the children of these destitute people eat little or not at all, fainting in schools.

Two basic reasons explain the return of hunger in Greece.

First, bad policies nearly emptied Greek villages, luring peasants to the cities. I will never forget my anguish in visiting Mahairas, a lush village in Central Greece. I asked the elementary school teacher about her students. Embarrassed, she said she only had four pupils, all children of Albanian farm workers. All young Greek families left Mahairas for Athens and other cities. Those still farming are raising cash crops.

Greek authorities justify this detrimental rural policy on the basis of foreign models of development. After all, the U.S. emptied rural America of small family farmers and gave all their land to giant farmers who converted the countryside into very few massive industrialized farms and agribusiness corporations. Then the European Union, copying the U.S., has been funding large farmers as well.

The toxic industrial farming model and European agricultural subsidies destroyed Greek food security. Now bankrupt Greece borrows money to import food. A country blessed by sunlight and modest water, ideal for growing fruits and vegetables, even imports fruits and vegetables. Sometimes, Greece also imports olive oil -- the gift of goddess Athena to the Athenians.

Most Greek milk comes from Holland; beef is imported from several European countries. You go to buy groceries in Greece and the grocery is probably German. The Italians buy Greek olive oil and repackage it for export. I visit the village of my birth in Kefalonia, a Greek island in the Ionian Sea, and no one is growing wheat -- the real stuff of life for millennia all over Greece. Every day villagers buy French-like soft white bread!

Second, the current asphyxiating "austerity imposed on Greece by the troika: America's International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Commission is converting Greece into a colony that lives or dies at the whim of its masters.

These masters demand repayment for Greece's debt, no matter the social and ecological costs. But instead of helping Greece to create jobs and wealth so as to repay her debt, the foreigners demand higher taxes, the elimination of social services, and drastic cuts in pensions, salaries and government spending. They also require that the Greek government privatize all state enterprises, including drinking water.

Rich Greeks, like the rich everywhere, park their wealth into foreign banks.

The violence of this colonial policy has nowhere to go but foster resistance, anti-foreign sentiments, and more violence. Desperate people protest and, eventually, revolt. Hungry children are proof Greece will blow up.

No one, least of all the United States, would benefit from the coming upheaval in Greece. A peaceful or violent overthrow of the Greek government, which the overwhelming number of Greeks consider a foreign collaborationist government, will mean an overthrow of most Greek links to the West, especially a rejection of NATO and the European Union.

My hope is that non-violent but constructive alternatives prevail for the resolution of the continuing degradation of Greece. The policies of the despised troika are simply cannibalistic and unacceptable. Imagine the European Union, for example, causing hunger in one of its members, Greece, and still calling itself "union"?

A much more civilized approach towards Greece, the very country that brought light and civilization to the West, would be the forgiving of debt and a Marshall Plan for reconstruction and humane development.

America should lead such an effort because America did it before in the post-WWII reconstruction of Europe. In addition, the U.S. controls the IMF and Germany. The United States can simply order the IMF out of this barbarism parading as austerity in Greece. The U.S. can also direct Germany to take a constructive rather than destructive role in enabling Greece to stand on her own feet.

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

Here are some photos of food rioting in Greece.

http://planet.infowars.com/uncategorized/starving-greeks-riot-for-food

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/04/22/schoolchildren-in-greece-going-hungry/

http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/greece/2012/04/06/visualizza_new.html_162378646.html

[Vrej1915]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

The following Article has been published in Huffington Post, Dec. 22 2013.
All the euroholics, that scream about "loosing suvereinity", colonialism and such, should open their eyes wide or rather staple this article on their foreheads before daydreaming about Europe in caucasus.
This article is about Greece, but europe has ruined agriculture and the economy in Bulgaria and Ruminia and others as well.
I see some euroholics are protesting about russian controll of our gas industy, an industry that allmost 100% relies on Russia supplying of what we cannot afford from someone else(there is no one else besides Iran at much higher prices). Good to resist and wish that it would be controlled by us. But if they slighly open their eyes about europe they would see that such killing controll would be on everything that Armenia has, plus destraction of Armenia's national and traditional family values.



Evaggelos Vallianatos Adjunct professor of environmental analysis, Pitzer College
Why Are Greek Children Going Hungry?
Posted: 04/22/2013 11:39 am
Follow
European Union , Hunger , IMF , Greece Debt Crisis , Marshall Plan , America , Troika , World News
SHARE THIS STORY

Some of the Greeks I talk to on the phone tell me Greece now is reliving some of the harsh realities of WWII German occupation when hundreds of thousands of Greeks starved to death. Nazi Germany included famine in its extermination policies.

Once again, in 2013, a huge number of Greeks are without work. Many of these people are so impoverished they eat sporadically and, some of them, go hungry. Increasingly, the children of these destitute people eat little or not at all, fainting in schools.

Two basic reasons explain the return of hunger in Greece.

First, bad policies nearly emptied Greek villages, luring peasants to the cities. I will never forget my anguish in visiting Mahairas, a lush village in Central Greece. I asked the elementary school teacher about her students. Embarrassed, she said she only had four pupils, all children of Albanian farm workers. All young Greek families left Mahairas for Athens and other cities. Those still farming are raising cash crops.

Greek authorities justify this detrimental rural policy on the basis of foreign models of development. After all, the U.S. emptied rural America of small family farmers and gave all their land to giant farmers who converted the countryside into very few massive industrialized farms and agribusiness corporations. Then the European Union, copying the U.S., has been funding large farmers as well.

The toxic industrial farming model and European agricultural subsidies destroyed Greek food security. Now bankrupt Greece borrows money to import food. A country blessed by sunlight and modest water, ideal for growing fruits and vegetables, even imports fruits and vegetables. Sometimes, Greece also imports olive oil -- the gift of goddess Athena to the Athenians.

Most Greek milk comes from Holland; beef is imported from several European countries. You go to buy groceries in Greece and the grocery is probably German. The Italians buy Greek olive oil and repackage it for export. I visit the village of my birth in Kefalonia, a Greek island in the Ionian Sea, and no one is growing wheat -- the real stuff of life for millennia all over Greece. Every day villagers buy French-like soft white bread!

Second, the current asphyxiating "austerity imposed on Greece by the troika: America's International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Commission is converting Greece into a colony that lives or dies at the whim of its masters.

These masters demand repayment for Greece's debt, no matter the social and ecological costs. But instead of helping Greece to create jobs and wealth so as to repay her debt, the foreigners demand higher taxes, the elimination of social services, and drastic cuts in pensions, salaries and government spending. They also require that the Greek government privatize all state enterprises, including drinking water.

Rich Greeks, like the rich everywhere, park their wealth into foreign banks.

The violence of this colonial policy has nowhere to go but foster resistance, anti-foreign sentiments, and more violence. Desperate people protest and, eventually, revolt. Hungry children are proof Greece will blow up.

No one, least of all the United States, would benefit from the coming upheaval in Greece. A peaceful or violent overthrow of the Greek government, which the overwhelming number of Greeks consider a foreign collaborationist government, will mean an overthrow of most Greek links to the West, especially a rejection of NATO and the European Union.

My hope is that non-violent but constructive alternatives prevail for the resolution of the continuing degradation of Greece. The policies of the despised troika are simply cannibalistic and unacceptable. Imagine the European Union, for example, causing hunger in one of its members, Greece, and still calling itself "union"?

A much more civilized approach towards Greece, the very country that brought light and civilization to the West, would be the forgiving of debt and a Marshall Plan for reconstruction and humane development.

America should lead such an effort because America did it before in the post-WWII reconstruction of Europe. In addition, the U.S. controls the IMF and Germany. The United States can simply order the IMF out of this barbarism parading as austerity in Greece. The U.S. can also direct Germany to take a constructive rather than destructive role in enabling Greece to stand on her own feet.

My Dear,
This article is classical greek BS!
The basic logic being: everybody is villain, everybody wants to steel us, everybody owes us Everything, since we INVENTED DEMOCRACY, WE HAD HOMEROS, WE ARE THE ORIGIN OF CIVILISATION.......;
It happens, that I have been in Greece before, during and after the crisis, as well as Bulgaria.
The primary reasons Greece in the state it is, is:
1- Everybody stole, at its own level the state, and was certain the EU Bonanza WILL LAST FOR EVER, since Greece is the ORIGIN of Europe...
Greece received hundred of Billions in EU cash money, for more than 3 decades, to modernise, invest ..... but corruption at higher levels (in which certainly Brussels apparatchiks were part), and then casual Greek everyday and omnipresent corruption made the rest... nevertheless, the input was such huge, that they still have marvelous rests, as the transport, air infrastructure, a poor country like Greece would never have aforded.
2- The Greek state is poor, but Greeks are RICH ! Most of them, at their own level, compared to France, Germany citizens, etc.... simply because no one paid taxes, or virtually not. So hearing of Greek children starving is rather paradoxical... if the Greek children are starving, then ours are dead since the beguining.....
3- The Greeks are 'Dzuyl' ! I've been in Crete, just before the crisis of 2008, ans after, and I know what that same island looked like 40 years back. Crete is a huge island, with 5 big districts, each making the size of 3 Armenian districts at least. (Each of these districts had its own village named 'Armenia', founded by the survivors of the Genocide, or might be before... but it none, assimilation left anything but one or two artisans with arminian surnames..., but that's an other history, even if it tells a lot about Greek nationalist assimilation policy when it comes to christians, and their inability towards muslim villages (most Pomak (Bulagar ethnic groop in the Balkans) of Gypsies, they labeled as 'turk', and managed to turkicise!!). So, Crete turned from a poor, semi desertic rokky stone range, into a huge garden, with every inch covered by olive trees, thanks to EU subventions. It looked like a paradise, but in all the hills, you heard only Albanian, and from time to time Bulgarian! The Elderly Greek owners, turned from poor peasants into millionaires, in a matter of years, thanks to a Brussels decision and the Bonanza it generated..., where all day in the middle of every small and semi deserted (yet evidently entertained and opulent), under a huge tree's shadow, drinking Uzo or Tzipuro, playing nardi... while their sons where spending their millions in Athens or London, if not Melbourne. The poorest guy's son was in Heraklion (Crete capital), dreaming of Athens... till now no problem you would say. But the fact was, that the old Greeks did not head the Albanian labour, they 'shared' the ownership, each on his level, with an Albanian boss, who managed everything: bringged in his own labor force from Albania, managed the harvest, the processing, and even the sale of the olive oil to the italian mafia of Calabria (so the Crete oil was sold as Italian, generatig more profit, but paying nothing to the Greek state's budget)... and this on a huge and country size masshtap.... after a couple of years, the same Albanians bringed in their families, had their 'Greek' children with Greek passports, etc...; In every restaurant, the persoanl was Albanian or Bulgar, or Arab, etc... you would hardly find a Greek working hard labor. Even in Germany, a rich country, you do not see something like that!!
4/ Same was and still is the case in all over Greece. This country having important relative demographic decline, decided to 'resist' depleting Armenia, and partially Georgia (since Greeks did coexist in Armenian districys of Georgia, very few in Tiflis), where there was a 'Greek Pontic community': for every 'Pontic Greek', at least 10 Armenians left for Trakia, half from Armenia's Lori, half from Javakhk, where they had a relative majority in the Treghk District called Dzaghga..., thanks to the corruption of the Greek ambassy in Yerevan, where you can buy a Greek Shengen visa, the cheapest price available, more than a hundred thousand Armenians left for Greece, to counter 'turk'/pomak/muslim expansion in Trakia. Even hundred of Karabaghtzis ended in Greece, thanks to Mehmana.... Today, if you walk in the streets of Alexandrapolis, Xanthi, Salonik, you would hear pretty often Armenian with Lori or Javakhk accent, or Georgian... and when you talk to them, they will refute their Armenian identity, insisting they are Greek!! Yet, it is those same 'migrants', 'new greeks' that do the hard work in every sphere, even small farming works, with a slight difference: minarets are everywhere, and 5 times a day, the muezzin cries in turko/arabic... sooner or later, they will serve as canon meat...
5/ I do not know from where you get the certitude that Bulgaria (& Romania, but I have never been) suffered due to EU policy?? Bulgaria was more than a ruined state, after 1992. The sate of its economy was similar to that of Armenia. Yet, thanks to EU money, huge infrastructure invest was done, the Bulgarian agricultural sector is modernising by far better than ours, and even they will pass Greek capacities soon (just have a trip in the Bulgarian countryside): they have access to modern agricultural technologies, we can only dream about... and yet, in a HIGHLY CORRUPTED, soviet provincial Nomeclatura/Mafia/Oligarkh system.... The Outflow of Bulgarian's is less than 10% of the population (if you do not consider Gipsies), in two decades, while Georgia's or Moldova's (to not mention Armenia, where you will argue the blockade) is at least more than 30% !! Have a trip to Bulgaria, and compare it to 10 years ago...., while remembering the Mafia/Oligarkia, which is stronger than ours, since there are billions...
6/ I do not return on your 'gas' geostrategy... is worthless! Advocating volontary slavery, toward a state that is blackmailing us every now and then, humiliating the remnants of our dignity, is beyond my understanding. I just wrote you, so you could have a good sleep, Greek children are better shaped than ours !

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

My Dear,
This article is classical greek BS!
The basic logic being: everybody is villain, everybody wants to steel us, everybody owes us Everything, since we INVENTED DEMOCRACY, WE HAD HOMEROS, WE ARE THE ORIGIN OF CIVILISATION.......;
It happens, that I have been in Greece before, during and after the crisis, as well as Bulgaria.
The primary reasons Greece in the state it is, is:
1- Everybody stole, at its own level the state, and was certain the EU Bonanza WILL LAST FOR EVER, since Greece is the ORIGIN of Europe...
Greece received hundred of Billions in EU cash money, for more than 3 decades, to modernise, invest ..... but corruption at higher levels (in which certainly Brussels apparatchiks were part), and then casual Greek everyday and omnipresent corruption made the rest... nevertheless, the input was such huge, that they still have marvelous rests, as the transport, air infrastructure, a poor country like Greece would never have aforded.
2- The Greek state is poor, but Greeks are RICH ! Most of them, at their own level, compared to France, Germany citizens, etc.... simply because no one paid taxes, or virtually not. So hearing of Greek children starving is rather paradoxical... if the Greek children are starving, then ours are dead since the beguining.....
3- The Greeks are 'Dzuyl' ! I've been in Crete, just before the crisis of 2008, ans after, and I know what that same island looked like 40 years back. Crete is a huge island, with 5 big districts, each making the size of 3 Armenian districts at least. (Each of these districts had its own village named 'Armenia', founded by the survivors of the Genocide, or might be before... but it none, assimilation left anything but one or two artisans with arminian surnames..., but that's an other history, even if it tells a lot about Greek nationalist assimilation policy when it comes to christians, and their inability towards muslim villages (most Pomak (Bulagar ethnic groop in the Balkans) of Gypsies, they labeled as 'turk', and managed to turkicise!!). So, Crete turned from a poor, semi desertic rokky stone range, into a huge garden, with every inch covered by olive trees, thanks to EU subventions. It looked like a paradise, but in all the hills, you heard only Albanian, and from time to time Bulgarian! The Elderly Greek owners, turned from poor peasants into millionaires, in a matter of years, thanks to a Brussels decision and the Bonanza it generated..., where all day in the middle of every small and semi deserted (yet evidently entertained and opulent), under a huge tree's shadow, drinking Uzo or Tzipuro, playing nardi... while their sons where spending their millions in Athens or London, if not Melbourne. The poorest guy's son was in Heraklion (Crete capital), dreaming of Athens... till now no problem you would say. But the fact was, that the old Greeks did not head the Albanian labour, they 'shared' the ownership, each on his level, with an Albanian boss, who managed everything: bringged in his own labor force from Albania, managed the harvest, the processing, and even the sale of the olive oil to the italian mafia of Calabria (so the Crete oil was sold as Italian, generatig more profit, but paying nothing to the Greek state's budget)... and this on a huge and country size masshtap.... after a couple of years, the same Albanians bringed in their families, had their 'Greek' children with Greek passports, etc...; In every restaurant, the persoanl was Albanian or Bulgar, or Arab, etc... you would hardly find a Greek working hard labor. Even in Germany, a rich country, you do not see something like that!!
4/ Same was and still is the case in all over Greece. This country having important relative demographic decline, decided to 'resist' depleting Armenia, and partially Georgia (since Greeks did coexist in Armenian districys of Georgia, very few in Tiflis), where there was a 'Greek Pontic community': for every 'Pontic Greek', at least 10 Armenians left for Trakia, half from Armenia's Lori, half from Javakhk, where they had a relative majority in the Treghk District called Dzaghga..., thanks to the corruption of the Greek ambassy in Yerevan, where you can buy a Greek Shengen visa, the cheapest price available, more than a hundred thousand Armenians left for Greece, to counter 'turk'/pomak/muslim expansion in Trakia. Even hundred of Karabaghtzis ended in Greece, thanks to Mehmana.... Today, if you walk in the streets of Alexandrapolis, Xanthi, Salonik, you would hear pretty often Armenian with Lori or Javakhk accent, or Georgian... and when you talk to them, they will refute their Armenian identity, insisting they are Greek!! Yet, it is those same 'migrants', 'new greeks' that do the hard work in every sphere, even small farming works, with a slight difference: minarets are everywhere, and 5 times a day, the muezzin cries in turko/arabic... sooner or later, they will serve as canon meat...
5/ I do not know from where you get the certitude that Bulgaria (& Romania, but I have never been) suffered due to EU policy?? Bulgaria was more than a ruined state, after 1992. The sate of its economy was similar to that of Armenia. Yet, thanks to EU money, huge infrastructure invest was done, the Bulgarian agricultural sector is modernising by far better than ours, and even they will pass Greek capacities soon (just have a trip in the Bulgarian countryside): they have access to modern agricultural technologies, we can only dream about... and yet, in a HIGHLY CORRUPTED, soviet provincial Nomeclatura/Mafia/Oligarkh system.... The Outflow of Bulgarian's is less than 10% of the population (if you do not consider Gipsies), in two decades, while Georgia's or Moldova's (to not mention Armenia, where you will argue the blockade) is at least more than 30% !! Have a trip to Bulgaria, and compare it to 10 years ago...., while remembering the Mafia/Oligarkia, which is stronger than ours, since there are billions...
6/ I do not return on your 'gas' geostrategy... is worthless! Advocating volontary slavery, toward a state that is blackmailing us every now and then, humiliating the remnants of our dignity, is beyond my understanding. I just wrote you, so you could have a good sleep, Greek children are better shaped than ours !

Vrej... Youve got points that makes me wonder... In case of EU, with integration, who would replace Armenian farmers, that are prone to subsistence farming in their small villages in transfer to big business cash crop farming? Those farms have to be farmed by transient labor, it's common practice in world business. Muslim emigrants probably? Most likely turks or azeris?
So, some european company would harvest and pack our apricots, lets say, and then turn and sell it back to our villagers(who have lost their small farms to big business or hard working emigrants and are unemployed in Yerevan)? Agricultural output would grow for sure. How about villages?
You know, there was similar conduct, like in Greak countryside, in real estate lending in west, back from around 2002-2003. First housing market was floaded with money as cheap loans. Ordinary house owners became rich because prices went up. Money was spent on other goods, like luxury cars and lifestyle. Economy grew big time and ordinary middle class became richer. Then interest rates were increased(banks wanted their money back) and those middle class lost their hard earned or inherited (hard earned by their parents and such) homes and properties to banks and lenders. Big world business, what can you say.
So for their problems Greeks have to be blamed themselves. Of course they are not hard working enough for european standards. People, who have lived in their villages for thousand years had to work as hard and compete with emigrant labor. Or become destitute.
Not much to say...
In my earlier post, I had put some facts that Bulgaria's population lost around 2 million from about 9, in past few years. Whatever percentage it makes.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

Vrej... Youve got points that makes me wonder... In case of EU, with integration, who would replace Armenian farmers, that are prone to subsistence farming in their small villages in transfer to big business cash crop farming? Those farms have to be farmed by transient labor, it's common practice in world business. Muslim emigrants probably? Most likely turks or azeris?
So, some european company would harvest and pack our apricots, lets say, and then turn and sell it back to our villagers(who have lost their small farms to big business or hard working emigrants and are unemployed in Yerevan)? Agricultural output would grow for sure. How about villages?
You know, there was similar conduct, like in Greak countryside, in real estate lending in west, back from around 2002-2003. First housing market was floaded with money as cheap loans. Ordinary house owners became rich because prices went up. Money was spent on other goods, like luxury cars and lifestyle. Economy grew big time and ordinary middle class became richer. Then interest rates were increased(banks wanted their money back) and those middle class lost their hard earned or inherited (hard earned by their parents and such) homes and properties to banks and lenders. Big world business, what can you say.
So for their problems Greeks have to be blamed themselves. Of course they are not hard working enough for european standards. People, who have lived in their villages for thousand years had to work as hard and compete with emigrant labor. Or become destitute.
Not much to say...
In my earlier post, I had put some facts that Bulgaria's population lost around 2 million from about 9, in past few years. Whatever percentage it makes.

1/ I saw your %, the real question, is the ethnicity of who left.... Gipsies did left, for a million, to beg and rob western Europe. Guess what, Bulgarians are very happy with... You should have a closer look of Bulgarian emigration. Provided you look at unbiased, you would see, that their shape is much, much better than ours...
2/ No one talked about Armenia integrating the EU. I wish it was possible, but this was never offered nor dreamt about, to begin with.
3/ I'm afraid You understood nothing about the Greek character, their problem,and farm problem. You want at any cost to justify pro russia line, that's fair for you, but certainly not objective.... With less per capita subsidies, Spain, Portugal, and the Mezzogiorno (that it south of Italy, poor and Agricultural), managed to modernise their agruculture, and more importantly, their agro-industry...., the Greeks did not, because simply, they taught they were "smarter"....
4/ Our agriculture is already in the state you describe, without EU integration policy, thanks to you beloved system.... Have you an idea how much of meat was produced in SRA? In ex NKAO? In ex territory corresponding to NKR? And what we do produce now?? Have you an idea of the productivity of Armenia's agricultural sectors?? Have you an idea What Sachik & Spyka did this last summer, to Armenia's apricot production? Have you seen the disaster that hit us? Which part of it was natural, which one made by Sarkissian family?? Or are you only based on the lies broadcasted by H1???
5/ To prove your points, be kind, do not use 'arguments' that are related to perspectives that were never offered to begin with.... Any Armenian farmer would dream of 10% of what the casual Greek farmer got! And thanks to our 'pro russian' (I do same as you do, misrepresent realities )
policies, our agriculture is so disastered, and the real levers are so concentrated, that even the worse policy of any country, might do better...
6/ There is much more migrant labor in Spain's agricultural sector, than the entire Greek farmers reunited. Yet there is a difference. The bosses are spanish, the Maroccons get only paid kopecks...
7/ No migrant labor would come to Armenia in foreseable future, to earn less than a 100 USD a month... unfortunately for our farmers. (If we do not consider the treacherous plans of Liska and his bosses, but let me guess, you would not necessary be against , if it was ordered from Russia??)
8/ At last, let's Stop Turning the problem upside down. The question Was and is not baing part of the EU. The offer was never done. The question is accepting willingly, or refusing/resisting to reintegrate the Russian Empire...

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

Wait a minute... wait a minute Vrej... what prorussia? what %age? You are saying yourself that if greeks have any fault of their own, it is their corruption.
If your dream would come trough (it won't, but lets say) and we became a member of european union, then wouldn't our own corruption do the same to us? Wouldn't all those euro funds and grants disappear in some private pockets? Then the payers would have to be ordinary Armenians right? So what makes you think that europe will clean our corruption? On the contrary, some circles there will cooperate and pocket funds themselves too. Like they do in all those eastern european countries.
European human rights laws maybe would make it easier for minorities and make social governance softer and more civilized ( I am not saying humane) but for corruption nothing. Besides an annual corruption rating report by country's rank, all the western structures approach our government without any pretenses. Both, west's and russia's only goal is to keep Armenia in their sphere of influence for strategic reasons. Nothing more. They both deal with our oligarchs the same. As long as any one of them plays the right game they are safe with both sides, and can do their thing. No western country has protested in hosting their millions in their banks.
When the issue comes to corruption or oligarchy in Armenia, you guys kill your own fight by letting it become proeurope or prorussia issue. Because it is not, and not dependent on outside. It was bread by soviet system, right. But now it has life and psychology of it's own in Armenia's society. Only naive would not see that this corruption will nullify any benefits from customs union association too.
This comes to show, as to why the opposition is so weak. It has been getting nourishment and is controlled by west and big part of propaganda is waisted on pro west or antirussian issues, where neither one has interest in fixing corruption for us. Don't you think that oligarchs welcome this?
Our geopolitical situation makes dependence on russia necessary for security. You guys admit that. But when it comes to any particular corruption issue, all you hear from opposition is european values and russia's fault. Don't you guys see how absurd this is?
Igor Mouradian and his followers pushed antirussian agenda(Igor having his reasons for europe), where big part of it was using corruption as a means of persuasion of public and turning popular anger from corruption towards antirussian feelings. But there is a geopolitical reality from which there is no escape. So in choosing the physical security in customs union, public has to automatically except corruption, because that is what opposition disseminates in anti russian propaganda. What a golden opportunity for oligarchs to cement their existence and conduct... Either you choose europe and face the turks alone or russia for existence of your country but with us on your top, because that is what the russia's opponents say, look?... Either except it or country will be destroyed. Oligrchy also has been using opposition's conduct to strengthen an opinion in russia's political circles that any social movement in Armenia is indeed simply anti russian pro west movement.
This is how opposition has let public down and unable to get rid off oligarchy because of confusion and fears of countries security issues. If any oligarkh is chased out or even eliminated, no negative change or damage will acure either for Artsakh or Armenia. But if you have to choose about europe for prosperity or russia for security and youve been thought by "progressives" that choosing russia means choosing oligarchy and corruption, then you give up on hopes of social justice, but choose russia for phisical security.
That is why I speak so low about opposition today(of which I was part and so proud before).
It should be very easy to choose either europe or russia, once we look at it clear from social issues and only from the geostrategic point ( I choose russia as strategic partner).
But all our social issues including poverty, corruption in judicial system, government, education, business practices and health system are mainly internal problems. Those are fed by our own psychology and lifestyle and customs. And unless opposition gets up and really wants to fight it from inside and with people, without becoming a propaganda tool for either europe or russia or anybody else, it cannot play the role that it needs to play for Armenia.
I would rather see a very strong opposition that concentrates it's energy against oligarchs and corruption right where it has to and changes government, moves, educates, prepares better citizenry free of corruption. Not to get bogged down on external geostrategical issue, which it has very limited power to influence.
We need opposition that is sustained by our own people. Prowest or proeast debate should not be the main existential purpose of opposition.
Our orange revolution should not mean loosing strategic security guarantees and geostrategic partners, but social change of people's power and influence in government and society overall.
Only then we could unite in fight against corruption and mean something.

[Artashes]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

It was mentioned that "wop" was a derogatory term for Italians in the USA during the early 20th century.
Although it was perceived by the general population as derogatory & used that way too on many occasions, in fact it meant" with out papers" referring to an illegal immigrant.
Many Italian immigrants knew this and referred to themselves as such as they were honestly stating their status.
So was used by many as derogatory but not all.
Artashes

[Vrej1915]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

Wait a minute... wait a minute Vrej... what prorussia? what %age? You are saying yourself that if greeks have any fault of their own, it is their corruption.
If your dream would come trough (it won't, but lets say) and we became a member of european union, then wouldn't our own corruption do the same to us? Wouldn't all those euro funds and grants disappear in some private pockets? Then the payers would have to be ordinary Armenians right? So what makes you think that europe will clean our corruption? On the contrary, some circles there will cooperate and pocket funds themselves too. Like they do in all those eastern european countries.
European human rights laws maybe would make it easier for minorities and make social governance softer and more civilized ( I am not saying humane) but for corruption nothing. Besides an annual corruption rating report by country's rank, all the western structures approach our government without any pretenses. Both, west's and russia's only goal is to keep Armenia in their sphere of influence for strategic reasons. Nothing more. They both deal with our oligarchs the same. As long as any one of them plays the right game they are safe with both sides, and can do their thing. No western country has protested in hosting their millions in their banks.
When the issue comes to corruption or oligarchy in Armenia, you guys kill your own fight by letting it become proeurope or prorussia issue. Because it is not, and not dependent on outside. It was bread by soviet system, right. But now it has life and psychology of it's own in Armenia's society. Only naive would not see that this corruption will nullify any benefits from customs union association too.
This comes to show, as to why the opposition is so weak. It has been getting nourishment and is controlled by west and big part of propaganda is waisted on pro west or antirussian issues, where neither one has interest in fixing corruption for us. Don't you think that oligarchs welcome this?
Our geopolitical situation makes dependence on russia necessary for security. You guys admit that. But when it comes to any particular corruption issue, all you hear from opposition is european values and russia's fault. Don't you guys see how absurd this is?
Igor Mouradian and his followers pushed antirussian agenda(Igor having his reasons for europe), where big part of it was using corruption as a means of persuasion of public and turning popular anger from corruption towards antirussian feelings. But there is a geopolitical reality from which there is no escape. So in choosing the physical security in customs union, public has to automatically except corruption, because that is what opposition says. What a golden opportunity for oligarchs to cement their existence and conduct... Either you choose europe and face the turks alone or russia for existence of your country but with us on your top, because that is what the russia's opponents say, look?... Either except it or country will be destroyed.
This is how opposition has let public down and unable to get rid off oligarchy because of confusion and fears of countries security issues. If any oligarkh is chased out or even eliminated, no negative change or damage will acure either for Artsakh or Armenia. But if you have to choose about europe for prosperity or russia for security and youve been thought by "progressives" that choosing russia means choosing oligarchy and corruption, then you give up on hopes of social justice, but choose russia for phisical security.
That is why I speak so low about opposition today(of which I was part and so proud before).
It should be very easy to choose either europe or russia, once we look at it clear from social issues and only from the geostrategic point ( I choose russia as strategic partner).
But all our social issues including poverty, corruption in judicial system, government, education business practices and health system are mainly internal problems. Those are fed by our own psychology and lifestyle and customs. And unless opposition gets up and really wants to fight it from inside and with people, without becoming a propaganda tool for either europe or russia or anybody else, it cannot play the role that it needs to play for Armenia.
I would rather see a very strong opposition that concentrates it's energy against oligarchs and corruption right where it has to and changes government, moves, educates, prepares better citizenry free of corruption. Not to get bogged down on external geostrategical issue, which it has very limited power to influence.
We need opposition that is sustained by our own people. Prowest or proeast debate should not be the main existential purpose of opposition.
Our orange revolution should not mean loosing strategic security guarantees and geostrategic partners, but social change of people's power and influence in government and society overall.
Only then we could unite in fight against corruption and mean something.

For once, I do agree on 90% of your last post.
Corruption is an internal problem, and as every nation, we deserve the rulers we have, even if we did not elect them.
Things might change soon, once we would be formally occupied, (our long and ancestral state), when we can once again blame the occupier, and will not even be able to change our rulers, backed by foreign boots...

But yet again, if you admit that corruption is our internal problem, you must be fair, to blame the same for Greece & Bulgaria, Romania, ... and not misuse diverted arguments, blaming the EU for their mismanagement, and the results they taste today... as an argument to prone pro-russia orientation

Am I wrong???

----
Where we do disagree: You consider that Russia garantees our security.
I consider a Russia that has free hands, is the N1 danger to our National security.... , just look back to our history.

You consider that we do not have any choice or chance outside Russian will. We are condemned to accept any Ukaz. You consider, that we can't be independant? as there is no independence possible nowdays (granted, I simplify the problem, but basically, that's what you say)
I do disagree, and consider, that however hard or seemingly impossible, we are condemned to learn diplomacy and geopolitics, to find a way to survive as an INDEPENDANT ENTITY. A s soon as we loose that capacity (however slim, it did exist till 3 September's capitulation, in the sake of the Regime's survival, not the Nation's), whether full Russian, Persian, EU, American, or Indian rule... we are condemned to repeat history.

You consider that we had been offered a place in the EU, and instead we would better choose neo-CCCP.
I consider there is no such problem today. There is a new CCCP or proto-Tzarist Imperial Russia, which tries to reintegrate us, and we must do every impossible act of resistance, to avoid returning into Russian bounderies, because Russia will stab us in the back instantly, at first occasion, for a "belly dance" or an "oil rig", as it always did....

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

For once, I do agree on 90% of your last post.
Corruption is an internal problem, and as every nation, we deserve the rulers we have, even if we did not elect them.
Things might change soon, once we would be formally occupied, (our long and ancestral state), when we can once again blame the occupier, and will not even be able to change our rulers, backed by foreign boots...

But yet again, if you admit that corruption is our internal problem, you must be fair, to blame the same for Greece & Bulgaria, Romania, ... and not misuse diverted arguments, blaming the EU for their mismanagement, and the results they taste today... as an argument to prone pro-russia orientation

Am I wrong???

----
Where we do disagree: You consider that Russia garantees our security.
I consider a Russia that has free hands, is the N1 danger to our National security.... , just look back to our history.

You consider that we do not have any choice or chance outside Russian will. We are condemned to accept any Ukaz. You consider, that we can't be independant? as there is no independence possible nowdays (granted, I simplify the problem, but basically, that's what you say)
I do disagree, and consider, that however hard or seemingly impossible, we are condemned to learn diplomacy and geopolitics, to find a way to survive as an INDEPENDANT ENTITY. A s soon as we loose that capacity (however slim, it did exist till 3 September's capitulation, in the sake of the Regime's survival, not the Nation's), whether full Russian, Persian, EU, American, or Indian rule... we are condemned to repeat history.

You consider that we had been offered a place in the EU, and instead we would better choose neo-CCCP.
I consider there is no such problem today. There is a new CCCP or proto-Tzarist Imperial Russia, which tries to reintegrate us, and we must do every impossible act of resistance, to avoid returning into Russian bounderies, because Russia will stab us in the back instantly, at first occasion, for a "belly dance" or an "oil rig", as it always did....

I consider european union the same as customs union. just more wealthy and open. By becoming a member, a country gives up economic, social, strategic suvereinity the same in both.
You have to abide and exept financial controll, changes that could be contrary to your own national customs and identity. You will conduct your external and internal policies with the will of Brussells and laws accepted in common community just same as from moscow. All the same.
Am I missing a point?
I blame EU in situation in Greece or Romania because it enforces policies and machinations of financial establishment with destroying said countries ethnic bastions, like villages, religions, changes ethnic composition. What diffrence is there between soviet destraction of ethnic identity or assimillation into dominating ethnic group because of ideology or EU's because of ideology plus economy(money or prosperity bait) if the end result is the same?
When someone speaks about how the youth has emigrated in those countries in search of work in other countries, it reminds me of our youth in russia.
EU consists of dominating trio, Germany, France and England, dictating others of how to live and work and where.
I look at this trio and remember the past as you do. Germany helping turkey in Armenian genocide. France giving Cilikia to turks(1938) and England, Javakh to georgians(helping to win in war).
For me introducing and forcing gey rights and parades in Yerevan or forcing sexual education classes (just like it is obligatory for all EU members) in our schools where 12 year olds are tought (whith pictures) how to copulate and use condoms, is as much moral colonialisation as communism.
And no, I don't speculate about what might happen in future. I look where our arms come from. Why aren't turkey and baku restarting the war yet. and have diffrent opinion about russia for future.
As you say russia that has free hands. That I think depends from us and from situation in world politics.
And yes, I look back at our history and see that if not for russia or czarist colonialization(I know that makes you unhappy at least) there would be no Armenia. Turkey would absorb and eliminate Armenians from those territories just like it did with the rest.
I don't consider as if EU membership was offered to us. It is the Mouradian/Lragir group behaving like it was offered. Just signing an association agreement has no security guarantees at all.
Anyway what was going to is happening. No matter how much we disagree or agree. At least now maybe opposition should start concentrating a fight against corruption because that opportunity might be lost one day too.

[Hakob]

Re: Eurasian Customs Union

I'd like to add that nobody, russia too, cannot force us to steal and bribe the way it has been carried out in our country. It is our fault. It will make dependency feel as if slavery, financial inflow to dissapear before anything gets to us.
We are a way off before external influences can affect us good or bad. The closest and fastest fixes are right there in Armenia.