The Sick Man of Europe -- Again

[winoman]

Yeah agree - nice to see this in the WSJ Op-Ed. Perhaps a bit overly concetrated on the Cyprus issue - but good to see these points raised/emphasised as a counter to the great deal of pre-Turkish propaganda one sees everywhere...

[CatWoman]

Wow, the US Ambassador to Turkey resigned last week!!
I wonder if that has anything to do with the current tensions between the former allies.
Also found this interesting: Turkey, US relations hit new rough spot

[winoman]

Very interesting Catwomen - yeah something is certainly up (and I think it all goes back to Turkey expressing sympathies for Palestinians...and this is Isreal's revenge/attempt to learn them the consequences - etc)

This statement/claim (from your linked article) is quite a reach however (and makes me think that there are forces behind the scenes trying to trump up the "dispute" etc) :

on Sunday, US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said that by "blocking" US efforts to get into Iraq from the north two years ago, Turkey had allowed the insurgency there to "flourish."

The article later has more of Rumsfeld's comments expanding this line of reasoning. I'll just withhold comment...but yeah some very interesting developments. I have a good friend in Northern Iraq right now working with the Kurds. I discussed this issue of Turkish interferrence and he didn't really think it a factor (then or yet...etc) - then again might be possible to miss.

[CatWoman]

Yeah, I heard about Donald Rumsfeld's statement!

Also guess what's the best selling book in Turkey now?
Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf"!!! lol, yeah... I guess anti-Semitism is rising in Turkey, which is weird since Jews have always supported Turkey and are a big supporter of their entrance to EU.

Look what I found on latimes about this and it's connection to the Armenian genocide!!

How Should We Read Sales of 'Mein Kampf' in Turkey?

March 23, 2005

The article about the popularity of Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" in Turkey ("Hitler Finds an Audience in Turkey," March 16) causes one to speculate about the sudden rise of anti-Semitism in Turkey.

One reason could be that with anti-Semitism rising again in Europe, the Turks, who have desperately sought entry into the European Union, are only trying to fit in with Europeans. Another could be that Hitler's genocidal policies dovetail quite nicely with Turkish history. Let us not forget that the Turks popularized modern genocide when they killed up to 1 1/2 million Armenians during World War I. Not only won't the Turks apologize for their heinous crime, they won't even acknowledge it. The Turks also have long denied the rights of ethnic Kurds who live in Turkey. The Turks are so hateful of Kurds that they will not even allow a Kurdish state to be born outside of Turkey's borders.

Josh Baker

San Francisco

latimes

Cool, no?

[winoman]

Yes obvioulsy the type of ideas expressed in Mein Kampf dovetail quite nicely with the standard Turkish/Pan-Turkick beliefs in the superiority of the Turk in all things and the type of jingoism that is very common over there...but perhaps Mouse (a big fan of the book) can enlighten us more why the Turks might approve of such ideas...

[bell-the-cat]

Turkey has a formidable military that could cause havok in the region. Their elites believe in a kind of pan-Turkick manifest destiny that will once again make them some sort of world superpower...and (many/most?) Turks really buy into this idea of Turks being the most special people in the world (ahem - sound familiar anyone? lol) - and they reeally feel that the rest of the world is still in conspiracy against them (purely from jeolosy that they are not Turkish - the supreme race)...sure most Turks likely do not spout this or even believe it (who knows really) - but enough sure do - and this has been force fed them since birth (certainly throughout their schooling) along with the veneration of Ataturk's godhood...and of course that all their past enemies and those who hate them are in fact only traitors who have had no legitimate reason to ever dislike the Turks who only believe in "Peace at Home and Peace in the World"...all that being said - most Turks are pretty nice and friendly people when you get to know them who mostly like to party and have a good time...such a dichotomy...what a case study in mass mental illness they might make...

Hohum, Wino thinks that because he's made a couple of visits to Turkey, and slept with a few Turkish women, he's now an expert on the place. Nonsense quotes like "Their elites believe in a kind of pan-Turkick manifest destiny" show that he is not. If by "elites" he means the post-WW1 Ataturk regime and its successors then actually they were almost religiously NOT pan-Turkic, but were intent on Turkey abandoning all past dreams of empire and instead accepting that Anatolia, and Anatolia alone, was now and forever the only homeland of Turks. Hence Ataturk's abandoning of Turkish claims to Northern Iraq. Not that all that helped Armenia, since it just made Republican Turkey all the more eager to make Turkey an ethnically 100% Turkish state, with borders that would never move even an inch.

Now, as for case studies, Wino would be a good case study for individual mental illness. But that's another topic, isn't it.

[bell-the-cat]

BEAUTIFUL!!!

Beautiful in that it shows that the Greek diaspora's cesspit is just as full of xxxxe as the Armenian and Turkish ones.

[winoman]

...the post-WW1 Ataturk regime and its successors then actually they were almost religiously NOT pan-Turkic, but were intent on Turkey abandoning all past dreams of empire and instead accepting that Anatolia, and Anatolia alone, was now and forever the only homeland of Turks. Hence Ataturk's abandoning of Turkish claims to Northern Iraq. Not that all that helped Armenia, since it just made Republican Turkey all the more eager to make Turkey an ethnically 100% Turkish state, with borders that would never move even an inch.

I understand that this became the offical Turkish position (out of necessity) and was Ataturk's brilliant re-defintion of (as it were) "Turkism" - inward to Anatolia (what they could legitimatly think to hold onto). However, since the fall of the Soviet union this view has changed and the Turkish elite now see themselves as leading an eventual Turkish confederation of states (even if not politically - economically). To this end they have inundated the Turkick former Soviet States with Turkish media and such and suggested that they rightly are the lead - the example for all Turks of the world (witness also their involvement/advocacy with the Uighurs of China). So no - I'm not off base with this claim.

As for the rest - still a crybaby eh?

[CatWoman]

Beautiful in that it shows that the Greek diaspora's cesspit is just as full of xxxxe as the Armenian and Turkish ones.

The most meaningless post of the year!!!
Perhaps you should know that genocide recognition is on Armenia's foreign policy agenda and isn't only a diaspora issue.

[bell-the-cat]

Yawn, yet more Wino misunderstandings - he never tires of producing them, does he!

I understand that this became the offical Turkish position (out of necessity) and was Ataturk's brilliant re-defintion of (as it were) "Turkism" - inward to Anatolia (what they could legitimatly think to hold onto). However, since the fall of the Soviet union this view has changed and the Turkish elite now see themselves as leading an eventual Turkish confederation of states (even if not politically - economically). To this end they have inundated the Turkick former Soviet States with Turkish media and such and suggested that they rightly are the lead - the example for all Turks of the world (witness also their involvement/advocacy with the Uighurs of China). So no - I'm not off base with this claim.

Firstly, the "Turkish elite" in the 1980s and 90s did not involve itself in grubby matters like politics.
Secondly, of those that did (i.e. politicians), in the early 1990s there were some who thought to increase their status within Turkey by going on foreign trips to the various newly independent Turkic states in the former Soviet Union, and making "we are your brothers" type of comments. For example, there is a particularly widespread (in Turkey) photo of the leader of Turkey's MHP party addressing a large political rally in Azerbaycan. However, nobody took these speeches seriously even at the time (remember, Turkey never did intervene to help Azerbaycan).
Thirdly, all real interest in establishing some sort of "Turkish commonwealth" evaporated long ago, when Turkey realised that all it was ever going to get from it would be never ending demands for more money from basket-case economies. Today, there is NOBODY in Turkey, political or otherwise, that that would ever wish for Turkey to be leading "an eventual Turkish confederation of states".