The Sick Man of Europe -- Again

[winoman]

Hi Winoman!thnks for 'welcome'...I'm originally from north east but living in northwest.......by the way.hi for all people here!

Where from - Kars? Rize? Trabzon? or thereabouts? Are you Hemshin?

I was amazed (when I was there 2 years ago) with the climate along the Black Sea coast in the Northeast - so different then anywhere else in Anatolia - amost tropical - really quite an eye opener. Wish that I had had more time to spend there...and had got to try more of the local tea...I've also been to the Northwest - Istanbul (of course) - also spent a day at Gallipoli before crossing Maramara and heading to Troy, Bergama, Izmir, Ephesos, Fetayie, Atalia, Side and so on and so forth (in 1991....)...

[TUR-Friend]

Eee, hi.
Is anti-semitism rising in Turkey? Yeah, maybe. But just not enough to make you folks happy. This one has been a minor news in Turkey, nothing to pay attention to. There are more jews living in Turkey then there are in Israel.

[TomServo]

Wheeeeeeeee! TUR-Friend, you're a Turk!

[TUR-Friend]

Yeap, I am indeed. Hehe...

[TUR-Friend]

Simple! Actually Hitler stole most of his "smarter" ideas from us, the Turkish Genelkurmay. Anyway, look, we just can't take the idea that we lost so much land during WW1, and the big-huge Ottoman Empire turned into the Turkish Republic who exists only in Anatolia. So, we're angry, but that's not all. Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Arabs and some others claim Anatolia for themselves... and then what happens in the mind of an already-pissed Turk? Here's how a regular Turk thinks...

"Those suckers took advantage of the WW1 and betrayed our Ottoman government. Because of these *back stabber* minorities, we had to actually fight against six enemies (British, Italian, French, Arab, Kurdish, Russian/Armenian), in many fronts. We even had to do a war called "Independence War." We, the glorious Turks, had to actually defend ourselves? Unbelievable, but true. It's all the fault of our once beloved minorities; Armenians, Kurds, Arabs, Greeks and others. And now they claim even Anatolia for themselves? Eargggh! They sure deserve to be wiped out of history!"

See? We know that we mass killed some Armenians, but I assure you we didn't do it for fun. I'm not supporting such crimes but it was more like an action-reaction event. If we wanted to kill you we would do it much earlier when the Ottoman Empire was much stronger, we wouldn't wait until we're too weak, both economically and militarily, because of the WW1. Afterall, we had lived peacefully for such a long time before. We had no problems with you, we trusted and loved you, as if you were one of us, an Ottoman. The word "Armenian" once meant "A person who's always behind his words." But things changed because of the war, and it all got messed up.

[winoman]

We know that we mass killed some Armenians.

Yes this part of your statement is true. The rest is too simplistic an explanation thus is not entirely accurate. For many hundreed of years Armenians were highly valued by Ottomans for the great benefits they provided the Empire (and they prosperd as well - no doubt). So what changed? That is the question.

The fact that Armenians became noticibly more educated and successful and began to wish for (and petion for and demand) legal protections (for their gains and just in general) against increasing depredations by Kurds and other nomadic types and the various other Turkicks that the Ottomans were settling amongst the Armenians who preyed upon them - and importantly - when they got no response from the Sultan (except negative response) they began to petion to outside powers - primarily the co-Orthodox Russians (and also Brits & French & such) - mortal enemies of the Ottomans - this caused the Sultan and the population to resent the Armenians - they were getting to uppity for guivor Christians - and here it was first felt that maybe they weren't 100% with the Ottoman program (but neither too were the Young Turks and others seeking reform). There was great resentment (by the Sultan and a great many Moslems in general) against the Tanzimat reforms forced on the Sultan in the 1800s (and that he repealed at first chance) and the Ottomans used massacre to repress Armenians who were asserting themselves against terrible double taxations (extortion) and other abuses.

As the Ottoman Empire started disolving - because other minorites on the fringes had similar (unresolvable) issues and obtained their freedom with outside support/sponsorship - the Ottoman paranoia grew (and they did not even have the ability - the concept to understand nationalism and they could percieve the designs against their Empire by the Imperialist western nations). Turkish nationalism - that started late - was naturally extreme and reactionary (internally and externally). It included a great resentment of Armenian fortunes (social, political and economic) and a great idealization of Turkism and the past waring and bloody tradition and history of the Turks. The resentment (and fear of potential sedition) of the Armenians resulted in a backlash - and a scapegoating - (falsely) blaming them for the Empire's misfortunes - and using them as an easy target for frustrations concerning the Imperialist Christian states (and the capitulations - that evolved into the economic nationalisation plan of the CUP - the "National Economy" with continued boycotts of Greek and Armenian businesses). Obvioulsy any Armenian political action (and remember such was actually in concert with the Young Turks who initially were preaching liberty, equality and fraternity (a la the French Revolution) - as the liberal CUP faction did believe (but not the military faction who were Pan-Turkick in orientation). Well the CUP began to see the Armenian parties who had supported them as competetors - (as happens in many revolutions where the extremists rise and take over - even while the Armenian parties and Armenains in general had kept their hopes on CUP reform - right up until the end). And in the extreme and religious and racially based CUP nationalism - Pan-turan or Turkism - there was no place for the Armenians in the society they envisioned - and in fact the Armenians were in the way - living in the heartland of Anatolia. Contrary to this - the Armenian revolutionary parties never found any great support among the Armenians - who realized that they could not form a nation apart from the Turks (untirely unrealistic) - that is was physically and politically impossible. Even your bud McCarthy has stated how nationalism failed to take hold of the Armenians prior to WWI. The little bit of rebellious behavior (mostly in response to over requestioning by the Army or because of continuing Kurdish raids) or revolutionary violent activities (some isolated perhaps - but this had pretty much died down to nothing) or activities in support of the Russians (more sympathies expressed - with some Ottoman Armenains actually fleeing accross the border to fight with the Russians - just as Turks were doing fleeing Cacasia to fight with the Ottomans - and in fact the "special organization" was originally formed to encourage this and to conduct operations behind Russian lines...). So after the start of the war these sorts of activites that did occur were used as the excuse - the rational - to do what was essentially being planned (and certainly contemplated) anyway - at the very least expulsion and certainly destruction of the Armenian "nation" (which in this sense refers to ethno-religious community and not a country) - and - with their backs to the wall - with the Brits, French & Anzacs at their doorstep and the very potential immenent doom of the Ottoman State - they decided upon the extreme measure to in fact destroy the Armenians utterly (and they had oppurtunity with wartime to excuse it as a move for military necessity) - so that even in defeat - there might be no "Armenia" left for the allies to one day partition from Turkey. So it was not the actions of the Armenians per se - not at all (just as one cannot blame the Jews for their destruction - it is the same) - it was exaggerated and paranoid perception and (self serving) mal-intent on the part of the CUP (and don't forget the idea of CUP to take control of the economy from Armenians - and this continued and was finally realized under Ataturk and just after) . ANd the CUP central commitee did order, plan and conduct a deliberate Genocide of the Armenians - it is proven by documented intent as well as action.

And OK - the above is likewise a brief summary - but at least it is based in (unbiased and accurate) fact and not supposition from a particular national (as well as false and denialist) viewpont!

[Mankurt]

No my friends, Turkey isn’t the sick man of Europe, it’s the dead man of Europe. Yes folks, unfortunately we’re long dead.

Strangely, even our dead body is capable of sending you lowly people like Armenians, Greeks and all shivers of terror. You’re still obsessed with us. You’re constantly weeping and whining and complaining about us to your bigger sisters. You’re trying to make everyone believe the lies you manufactured, like the so called Armenian genocide. As a matter of fact, you’ve begun to believe in them too.

You know nothing about the history. You know nothing but lies. Let me remind you: that was you who attempted to genocide Muslim peoples of Anatolia. That was you who massacred half a million Turks and Kurds while all the military-age men were sent to countless fronts of the Great War. But you weren’t man enough to go on and succeed and you got punished for your sins. No my friends, we didn’t massacre you but sent you to the calmer regions of the Empire.

Now we’re dead. But that doesn’t keep us from dreaming about fighting with the sole super power of the world in the name of justice (vide supra The Metal Storm). Nor does it keep you from crying and boohooing and complaining and slandering. Go on my friends. The more ridicule you’re, the wider the grin on our dead face is.

[TomServo]

No my friends, Turkey isn’t the sick man of Europe, it’s the dead man of Europe. Yes folks, unfortunately we’re long dead.

Strangely, even our dead body is capable of sending you lowly people like Armenians, Greeks and all shivers of terror. You’re still obsessed with us. You’re constantly weeping and whining and complaining about us to your bigger sisters. You’re trying to make everyone believe the lies you manufactured, like the so called Armenian genocide. As a matter of fact, you’ve begun to believe in them too.

You know nothing about the history. You know nothing but lies. Let me remind you: that was you who attempted to genocide Muslim peoples of Anatolia. That was you who massacred half a million Turks and Kurds while all the military-age men were sent to countless fronts of the Great War. But you weren’t man enough to go on and succeed and you got punished for your sins. No my friends, we didn’t massacre you but sent you to the calmer regions of the Empire.

Now we’re dead. But that doesn’t keep us from dreaming about fighting with the sole super power of the world in the name of justice (vide supra The Metal Storm). Nor does it keep you from crying and boohooing and complaining and slandering. Go on my friends. The more ridicule you’re, the wider the grin on our dead face is.

Erdogan's little helpers are replicating.

[Murtaza]

Tom Servo do you know, Erdogan is best you can have.The other would be more nationalist.

[TomServo]

No. Worst would be having an Azeri as President of Turkey. Allah forbid!