The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

According to reliable information sometime during the last couple of days Armenian troops in Nagorno Karabagh carried out a successful military operation (I believe in Martakert) liberating a strategic hill from Azeri control. According to this information, there were Azeri deaths. This development has not yet been reported in the news.

[Federate]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

According to reliable information sometime during the last couple of days Armenian troops in Nagorno Karabagh carried out a successful military operation (I believe in Martakert) liberating a strategic hill from Azeri control. According to this information, there were Azeri deaths. This development has not yet been reported in the news.

As much as I believe something like this happened, it's surprising the Az media has not made a huge deal out of it... usually it is very fast into painting us as aggressors, monsters, baby-killers etc. Strange.

[RSNATION]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

According to reliable information sometime during the last couple of days Armenian troops in Nagorno Karabagh carried out a successful military operation (I believe in Martakert) liberating a strategic hill from Azeri control. According to this information, there were Azeri deaths. This development has not yet been reported in the news.

Ah man, can you give us more????

[Kanki]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

According to reliable information sometime during the last couple of days Armenian troops in Nagorno Karabagh carried out a successful military operation (I believe in Martakert) liberating a strategic hill from Azeri control. According to this information, there were Azeri deaths. This development has not yet been reported in the news.

If it is true, intelligence offices have already known it.

[crusader1492]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

As much as I believe something like this happened, it's surprising the Az media has not made a huge deal out of it... usually it is very fast into painting us as aggressors, monsters, baby-killers etc. Strange.

Perhaps they're too embarresed/humiliated by the losing...again.

I'd like to here more about this too....

Armenian, I hope you get a dedicated internet connection soon!

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

After the recent events, things will change in favor of Armenia and Russia. Hopefully the Georgians will wise up. The Chechen did the Georgians will be a piece of cake. They will submit. Azerbaboon will be isolated they will too submit. This is the best thing that could happen to Armenia.

After this bloody beating Georgia got the Georgian population will be even more anti-Russian and Turks/Azeris will be even more afraid of stepping out of line in the Caucasus region. I am glad Armenia stayed out of this mess. Realizing that Russian intentions in Georgia was merely to destroy Tbilisi's war making capability/punish Saakashvili's government and not annex or destroy the country, official Yerevan could not risk ruining its already stressed relations with the Georgian government. Let's not forget that the vast majority of goods and supplies, including gas and benzine, get to Armenia via Georgia.

Although I'm upset that the war ended quite fast, I was, nevertheless, very-very impressed by Russia's war making capabilities both on the battlefield and within the halls of government. This was nothing less than a massive victory for the Russian Federation and its regional allies. This was also one of the rare instences in recent history where Moscow actually enjoyed the moral high ground and executed the war virtually flawlessly. Militarily, what Moscow accomplished with limited military resources (between 10-15 thousand soldiers) within a few short days was simply put, outstanding. We need to take into consideration that South Ossetia is a rugged and forested territory that favors the defender, in this case the invading Georgian force. Georgian forces, trained, armed and funded by the EU, USA and Israel, had also been preparing for this invasion for several years. Nevertheless, Within two short days, the Russian military thoroughly routed the Georgian invasion force, a force that was armed with modern multiple rocket launchers, anti-aircraft missiles, anti-tank rockets and heavy armor. Without any trouble Moscow also managed to take the war deep into Georgian territory and was able to bring Tbilisi to its knees within three/four days. And, as predicted, NO ONE was able to do anything for Tbilisi.

Which leaves one wondering, what the 'fuck' was Saakashvili thinking when he gave the order to invade South Ossetia?!?!?! Could this be a case of treason, insanity or a classic case of miscalculation rooted in blind/extreme nationalism... In my opinion, it was a combination of all three: Georgians were blinded by their extreme nationalism and hate and allowed themselves to be fooled into believing that the West would help them in time of real need. As a result, Saakashvili's government was found to be utterly incompetent and, in a sense, treasonous. Through all this, Armenia enjoys the highest standing within the region. Anyway, this was the blood letting that Moscow needed to carry out in order to show the world that beyond its harsh political rhetoric, increasing wealth and flashy military parades, it is fully capable, and ready, to execute major military operations flawlessly using minimal resources.

Compare this war to that of wars fought by western forces in the Balkans and in the Middle East. This swift and thorough victory by Russian forces puts to shame the combined militaries of western nations, including that of the US.

Ah man, can you give us more????

I got the information from the mother of a young Yerevantsi soldier serving in Martakert. The young man called his mother two days ago to inform her that a significant military operation was undertaken to liberate a strategic hill. According to this information, the liberated hill in question was somehow made famous by the late Monte Melkonian. The operation was successful, the hill was liberated and there were Azeri deaths. Beyond this I don't know much else.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Georgia Says Russian Troops Still Fighting Despite Accord

Georgia on Wednesday accused Russia of attacking and occupying the central Georgian city of Gori, in flagrant defiance of an agreement struck only hours earlier to end the war that flared up last week. There were unconfirmed reports that a column of Russian tanks had left Gori and was on the road toward Tblisi, the Russian capital. “As I speak, Russian tanks are attacking the town of Gori,” Mr. Saakashvili said. His protests were joined by the leaders of several former Soviet countries from Eastern European, who were in Tblisi to show their support for Georgia. Valdas Adankas, the Lithuanian president, said: “Let the world finally wake up and take action, and provide security for the region. We are creating a situation that could get out of hand.” The Russian attacks on Gori could not be independently confirmed and Russia denied that its tanks were in Gori. The confusion underscored the fragility of the agreement, which Russian and Georgian leaders, still seething at one another, signed under pressure from Western countries eager to prevent the escalation of the conflict in the volatile Caucasus region.

Outside of Gori, black smoke could be seen rising from the city from the direction of a Georgian military base. Inside the city, there was the sound of small arms fire and two tank rounds were fired, but the firing later died down. Russian troops had apparently taken up new positions on the outskirts of Gori. They said they were stationed there to protect the population from irregular fighters who were reported to be stealing cars in the area. Two Russian tanks blocked the entrance to the town on the road from Tblisi. About 20 soldiers stood nearby, holding Kalashnikov rifles and smoking. Their commander, who gave only his first and middle names, Mikhail Petrovich, said the troops were securing the area against harassment from both sides in the conflict. He said there was sporadic shooting fired by locals and from thieves, including “non-local Ossetians,” an apparent reference to pro-Russian irregulars. White smoke rose from behind a nearby hilltop and some gunfire could be heard. Mr. Saakashvili and Mr. Medvedev agreed early Wednesday morning on a framework that could end the war, after five days of fighting.

Declaring that “the aggressor has been punished,” Mr. Medvedev had announced early Tuesday that Russia would stop its campaign, although Russian airstrikes had continued during the day as mediators tried to broker the agreement. By 2 a.m. on Wednesday, Mr. Medvedev and Mr. Saakashvili had agreed on a plan that would withdraw troops to the positions they had occupied before the fighting broke out. But the situation on the ground remained complicated on Wednesday. In western Georgia, in the town of Senaki, about five Russian personnel carriers and a tank were parked inside a military base, from which they had previously withdrawn. Residents and a police official said Russian troops had looted refrigerators and food. One Russian tank had crashed, apparently accidentally, through a fence and was sitting in the front yard of a house as soldiers fixed it. Whether the agreement takes holds, Russia has achieved its goals, effectively creating a new reality on the ground, humiliating the Georgian military and increasing the pressure on a longtime antagonist, Mr. Saakashvili.

Russian authorities make no secret of their desire to see Mr. Saakashvili prosecuted on war crimes in The Hague, and could well try other measures to undermine him. Mr. Medvedev also authorized Russian soldiers to fire on “hotbeds of resistance and other aggressive actions.” As the conflict cools and hardens, the two separatist regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, could wind up permanently annexed by Russia. But in signing on to an accord, Russia appears to have stopped short of a full-scale invasion that would have set off a broader cold-war-style confrontation with the West. Its actions have already aroused widespread alarm about Russia’s redrawing of the geopolitical map, and some fear that they could undermine democratic gains in a region that was once part of the Soviet sphere. But Mr. Saakashvili’s military attack on the South Ossetians, which set off the crisis last Thursday, has also drawn criticism as needlessly provocative. “The tanks should go. I hope they will,” Mr. Saakashvili said on Tuesday, as he emerged from a meeting with President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, who carried the document from Moscow to Tbilisi.

“There was a degree of constructive ambiguity” in the document that allowed the announcement to be made, said a senior European diplomat, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Western negotiators, who had shuttled between the Georgian and Russian governments for days, said they were optimistic that the crisis was under control. “Traditionally, we will see a few skirmishes, but frontal attacks and positioning will end,” said Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb of Finland, the chairman of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. The Bush administration is expected to cancel a scheduled naval exercise with Russia and to press NATO to prohibit a Russian warship from joining a separate alliance exercise. A cancellation would be the first concrete reprisal against Russia for its military actions in Georgia. As the news of an impending cease-fire filtered across Georgia on Tuesday, citizens reacted with relief and defiance. At a rally in Tbilisi, a euphoric crowd waved signs that read “Stop Russia,” and Mr. Saakashvili announced Georgia’s withdrawal from the “Russia dominated” Commonwealth of Independent States. “I saw Russian planes bombing our villages and killing our soldiers, but I could not do anything, and this will always be with me,” he said. “I promise that I will make them regret this.”

The presidents of five former Soviet satellite states and republics — Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Poland — flew into Tbilisi and appeared beside Mr. Saakashvili in a show of solidarity. “I am a Georgian,” said Toomas Hendrick Ilves, the president of Estonia. In Gori, citizens ventured out of their hiding places and began to sweep up glass and debris. Cars began to move on the streets of the city. Izmar Chivolidze sat on a curb that was stained with blood and strewn with broken glass. “Putin did this,” he said, speaking of Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin of Russia. “Putin created this circus.” Other areas of the country remained on a war footing. In the port of Poti, bombing was heard an hour after Mr. Medvedev’s statement early Tuesday morning. Under attack by Abkhaz and Russian forces, Georgia later withdrew its remaining soldiers from the Kodori Gorge after four days of attacks, said Shota Utiashvili, a spokesman for Georgia’s Interior Ministry. He said 22 civilians had been killed after Mr. Medvedev said the campaign would end. “Russia has said it has ended its invasion, but in reality, it has not,” Mr. Utiashvili said. “We should all prepare for the worst.”

The long-running dispute between Russia and Georgia boiled over on Thursday, after Mr. Saakashvili ordered Georgian forces to move into South Ossetia, a breakaway region with strong ties to Russia. Russian authorities say 2,000 people were killed in fighting around Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, and more than 30,000 refugees fled over the Russian border. These numbers could not be confirmed independently, and some analysts believe that Russia is citing them to bolster its war crimes allegations against Mr. Saakashvili. During talks throughout the day between Mr. Saakashvili and Mr. Sarkozy, the French leader had to call Mr. Medvedev twice to clarify points that had concerned the Georgian president. Mr. Saakashvili insisted that Russian peacekeepers remaining in the disputed territories be the same ones previously stationed there, and not crack troops swapped in anticipation of fighting. He also insisted that there be no discussion of the breakaway regions’ seceding from Georgia. Once Russian and Georgian forces pull back, international mediators will have to confront a flurry of problems. Will Russian and Georgian troops withdraw to their positions of last Thursday, before the latest fighting broke out, or to their positions in 1991, when the dispute over Georgia’s enclaves began?

Who will enforce a cease-fire — the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which currently monitors South Ossetia; the United Nations, which monitors Abkhazia; or some other organization, like the European Union? France is seeking support from its European Union partners for the deployment of European peacekeeping monitors, The Associated Press reported Wednesday. Diplomats have tried to keep the parties to the conflict focused on short-term practical steps — first, a cease-fire, second, allowing humanitarian aid into the war zone, and third, withdrawing troops. Only then, said Mr. Stubb, of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, would Russian and Georgian officials begin a peace effort to address the actual causes of the conflict. Sergei Markov, of Moscow’s Institute for Political Studies, said Western pressure had some effect, but Kremlin strategists became worried about doing permanent damage to Moscow’s already troubled relationship with Georgia. “Our relationship with Georgia is more important, so that Russia will have influence over the whole south Caucasus, just as it has for centuries,” he said.

The cease-fire negotiations coincided with bombing and artillery barrages that landed mostly on the outskirts of the city of Gori, and in villages in a plain to the north. Five people, including a Dutch journalist, were killed when a missile landed on Stalin Square. As Mr. Medvedev was making his announcement early Tuesday that the military campaign would be halted, Russian troops were spotted farther inside Georgia on the western front, south of Abkhazia. The troops drove through the port city of Poti, digging into positions on the city’s outskirts. There were reports that Russian troops were engaged in similar activities in the western Georgian towns of Zugdidi and Kareli, an American official said. A dozen armored vehicles guarded a bridge connecting Poti to Batumi, another Black Sea port. The troops, who spoke Russian and wore patches indicating they were paratroopers, said they were peacekeepers. A Georgian police official, who would not give his name because he was not authorized to speak, appeared downcast. He said he had had no contact with the Russians. “We have no orders to talk to them,” he said. “They came here themselves.”

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/wo...tml?ref=europe

[Armanen]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

"The Russians never keep their promises," Gokashvilli spat out.

You mean like all great powers? Especially the u.s.? Oh wait Russia kept it's promise to the people of SO.

[Armanen]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

"The Georgians figured it was better to ask forgiveness later, but not ask for permission first," an administration official told the newspaper. "It was a decision on their part. They knew we would say no'."

Just in case anyone was still in doubt over who's pawn sackaxxxxvile is.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Beaten Georgia Feels Humiliated By Russia

(A soldier gestures from a tank beside his comrade as part of a Russian military convoy travelling on its way on a main road leading to the Georgian city of Zugdidi, which is about 350 km away from Georgia's capital Tbilisi, August 13, 2008. Georgia accused Russia on Wednesday of sending tanks from South Ossetia into the Georgian town of Gori but Russia issued a swift denial and an eyewitness said the town was empty.)

OUTSKIRTS OF GORI, Georgia — - The Russian bombs and shells were falling fast Tuesday afternoon, dropping unseen through mist that clung to the mountains and wisped over the valleys. Panicked refugees pressed the gas pedal to the floor and roared toward the capital city of Tbilisi, trying to outrun the explosions. Russian helicopters hung low over the foothills. Russian President Dmitri Medvedev had already said that the "operation to force the Georgian authorities to peace" was finished. But here in Georgia, the war dragged on. "They want to destroy us," groaned Aftondil Huroshvili, who begged for a drink of water in a crowded hospital ward in Tbilisi. The retired topographer was strolling through Gori's central square when Russia bombed the post office. Shrapnel from the blast shattered his lower leg. The Conflict By The Numbers "They want to invade and take everything," he said, rolling his balding head back and forth in pain. "Why are they doing this?" As a battered country waited Tuesday to see whether a cease-fire would finally come to fruition, it was clear that Russia had already made its point. It took just five days of war to deal a shattering blow to Georgia's collective psyche. People who had started to divorce themselves from the ominous, Soviet-era sense of threat from their massive northern neighbor, who had started to dream of NATO membership and Western-style democracy, have just learned a hard lesson in their own vulnerability.

"We are like an example for the others, that Russia can do the same to anybody," said Nikoloz Kvachatze, a young doctor in Tbilisi's Republic Hospital. "They must be stopped. They won't stop by themselves. They'll start with Georgia, and then it will be Poland and Estonia and Ukraine." Until this week, some Georgians believed that their newly improved armed forces, trained and outfitted with help from the United States, might hold their own against Russia's much larger but aging military. There was a sense that Georgia was moving beyond the reach of Moscow's ire and would soon find a place among Western states. Many thought that Georgia's gestures of solidarity, from the troops sent to fight alongside the Americans in Iraq to the street named after George W. Bush, might induce the United States to back them up militarily if they ever found themselves menaced by Russia. But they were wrong.

After Georgia launched a surprise attack to seize control of the breakaway republic of South Ossetia, killing hundreds of civilians and a handful of Russian peacekeepers, they found themselves alone — and facing Moscow's wrath. "They are invading us, and it's happening in the 21st century, and the whole world is watching," said Teia Tsvertsvadze, a slim paramedic who wore a wooden cross tied around her neck on a string. "We're frustrated. If we were given more active support, maybe Russia wouldn't dare." This war has neatly illustrated that Russia has the military might to overcome Georgia in just a few days. Russian troops have at times appeared to be showing off: Cutting main roads only to relinquish them; occupying towns in Georgia proper and then leaving again; dropping bombs on military and civilian targets at will. "The morale of the people is destroyed," said Vaso Suramelo, 46, staring in dismay at the smoldering hills.

The remains of a hard battle littered the country road leading into Gori from the capital. Burned-out tanks and broken-down artillery canons lay scattered like forgotten toys on the charred roadway. Two hulking personnel carriers had smashed into one another, head-on. Passing cars slowed down and eased around them. But the soldiers were gone. The road to the capital stretched out, half-deserted and stripped of military protection. There were signs Tuesday that the war could be drawing to an end, but many Georgians remain skeptical. Russia will continue to fight, they said, until they take over the entire country, or until the Georgian government falls. "They have no right to do it," said ambulance driver Shalva Gokashvilli. "They want to keep us under control, to keep us from NATO. They never wanted us to be independent." "The Russians never keep their promises," Gokashvilli spat out.

Source: http://www.courant.com/news/nationwo...0,953425.story

Georgia Claims Russian Tanks Enter Key City

Georgia is accusing Russia of sending tanks into the strategic city of Gori despite a cease-fire in the fight over two pro-Russian breakaway Georgian regions. Georgian National Security Council Secretary Alexander Lomaia told reporters Wednesday that about 50 Russian tanks and armored vehicles had entered the city. Russia has denied the presence of tanks, but says troops have set up several checkpoints near the largely-abandoned city. There were no reports of combat. Both Georgia and Russia have agreed to the main points of a French-brokered peace plan which calls for the withdrawal of forces from two Georgian breakaway regions and free access for humanitarian aid workers. French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner says the European Union should deploy peacekeeping monitors to help diffuse the situation. Kouchner spoke Wednesday ahead of a meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels, Belgium. Georgia's Health Minister Alexander Kvitashvili says that 175 Georgians have died in five days of air and ground attacks. Russia says the death toll is at least 1,500. There are no independently confirmed casualty figures. South Ossetia and Abkhazia declared independence from Georgia in the early 1990's but have not been internationally recognized.

Source: http://voanews.com/english/2008-08-13-voa9.cfm

And in related news:

Rice told Georgia to avoid conflict with Russia: report

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice privately warned Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to avoid a conflict with Russia during her trip to Tbilisi in July, The New York Times reported Wednesday. "She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use of force pledge on the table," an unnamed senior US official who accompanied Rice on the trip told the newspaper. The message was delivered during a private dinner on July 9, the report added. Publicly, however, during the trip Rice blamed Russia as a source of continuing unrest in the country. Russia "needs to be a part of resolving the problem and solving the problems and not contributing to it," she said at a July 10 joint press conference with Saakashvili. Rice's July visit to Georgia came amid increased diplomatic confrontation between the Washington and Moscow over Georgia's desire to join NATO, as well as the status of the separatist provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Despite the public bravado, top US officials warned the Georgians not to allow the conflict to escalate through until hours before Georgia launched its attack, the newspaper reported. The top US envoy for the region, Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried, received a phone call from Georgia's foreign minister on Thursday saying their country was under attack, the report stated. "We told them they had to keep their unilateral cease-fire," the unnamed official told the newspaper. "We said, be smart about this, don't go in and don't fall for the Russian provocation. Do not do this'." Saakashvili did not inform Washington ahead of the offensive, senior US officials told the newspaper. "The Georgians figured it was better to ask forgiveness later, but not ask for permission first," an administration official told the newspaper. "It was a decision on their part. They knew we would say no'."

Source: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...h8eOXcJKXZwRuw

Georgia's Israeli arms point Russia to Iran

JERUSALEM - With the eruption of fighting between Russia and Georgia, Israel has found itself in an awkward position as a result of its arms sales to Georgia. Israel is now caught between its friendly relations with Georgia and its fear that the continued sale of weaponry will spark Russian retribution in the form of increased arms sales to Iran and Syria. After fighting broke out late last week between Georgia and Russia over the breakaway provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Israel's Foreign Ministry over the weekend recommended suspending the sale of all weapons and defense-related equipment to Georgia, the daily Ha'aretz newspaper reported. The paper quoted an unnamed senior official saying that Israel needed "to be very careful and sensitive these days. The Russians are selling many arms to Iran and Syria and there is no need to offer them an excuse to sell even more advanced weapons."

Israel's immediate concern is that Russia will proceed with the sale of the S-300 anti-aircraft missile system to Iran, which would help it defend its nuclear installations from aerial attack. Israel, like the US, believes that Iran's nuclear program is aimed at developing a bomb, and Israeli leaders have refused to rule out the possibility of a pre-emptive strike aimed at derailing Iran's nuclear aspirations. Israel recently conducted a major aerial exercise over the eastern Mediterranean and Greece that was widely viewed as a rehearsal for a possible strike against Iran's nuclear installations. But with the US and Europe resorting to diplomatic pressure in the form of sanctions to deter Iran, Israel is loathe to anger Russia, which until now has opposed harsher sanctions on Tehran. Israel's relations with Georgia have been close, partly because there is a large Georgian xxxish community in Israel. In recent years, ties have also taken on a military dimension, with military industries in Israel supplying Georgia with some US$200 million worth of equipment since 2000. This has included remotely piloted planes, rockets, night-vision equipment, other electronic systems and training by former senior Israeli officers.

"Israel should be proud of its military, which trained Georgian soldiers," Georgian Minister Temur Yakobashvili told Israel's Army Radio in Hebrew shortly after the fighting erupted. Israel is not a major supplier of arms to Georgia, with the US and France supplying Tbilisi with most of its weaponry. But the arms transfers have attracted media attention partly because of the role played by some high-profile Israeli figures, including former Tel Aviv mayor Roni Milo, who conducted business in Georgia on behalf of Israel Military Industries. According to media reports, Brigadier General Gal Hirsch, a senior commander in the 2006 Lebanon war who resigned after the release of a highly critical report on the way the war was conducted, served as an adviser to Georgian security forces. Further attention was drawn to the Israel-Georgia arms trade earlier this year when a Russian jet shot down an Israeli-made drone being operated by the Georgians.

Even though weapons transfers were modest in scope, Russian diplomats began increasingly relaying to Israel their annoyance over its military aid to Georgia, including the special forces training provided by security experts. Israel decided about a year ago to limit military exports to defensive equipment and training. New contracts weren't approved as the arms sales were scaled back. Georgia's request for 200 advanced Israeli-made Merkava tanks, for example, was turned down. There were reports in Israel that the sale of the tanks didn't go through because of a disagreement over the commission that was to be paid as part of the deal. But Amos Yaron, the former director general of the Defense Ministry, insisted it had to do with "security-diplomatic considerations" - a clear reference to the sensitivity of the arms sales to Georgia. Israel, Yaron added, didn't want "to harm Russian interests too much". Asked about the motivation to initially engage in the sale of weaponry to Georgia despite concerns it might anger Russia, Yaron replied: "We did see that there was potential for a conflagration in the region but Georgia is a friendly state, it's supported by the US, and so it was difficult to refuse."

Source: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JH14Ak02.html