Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

[Armenian]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

So the psychobabbling it is a she after all

For once, I'm lost for words...

[Siamanto]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

(Strategically speaking, I must say this was not a very wise move on your part, Lucin, I mean, in the context of this discussion, given the "reactionary" reputation associated with the author.

Thanks for the suggestion; but, do you really think that I did not have enough time and opportunities to observe her conservative, square, rough and narrow minded self?
In any case, do you really think that she's intuitive and perceptive enough to see such "nuances" - yes, for a rough mind like hers, such obvious differences may seem as "nuances."

No doubt our progressist friend Siamanto will take advantage of this in order to denounce the collusion of the "reactionaries" )

Kogh sird@ togh????
By the way, did you read the title and some of the first posts? What do they inspire you?

[Siamanto]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

Just read Gaïdz Minassian's book.

Just read a book???? Can we be a mit more serious???

I hope that your opinions are based on first hand experiences - either yours or of people close to you; as for me, I have ample first hand experience and know enough people who had ample first hand experience of the ARF and would not - and do not - base my opinion of the ARF on a book.

In any case, which one did you have in mind? His Ph.D. thesis may be of some relevance, in this context.

Most importantly, it is unfortunate to see that you have conveniently eluded the main questions that I have raised and chose to focus on a couple of secondary details. I can understand that - to use your own words - you "are not willing to engage in a sterile debate;" but, in that case you should not have opened, and with such confidence, Pandora's Box with utterly untenable statements like
" The ARF in France has always had close ties with the socialist party" and
" Generally speaking, Armenians in France have traditionally associated with the left."
Don't you think that it's a bit gratuitous to make exaggerated and untenable statements and consider any discussion of them as "a sterile and childish debate?"
Why run away from a situation that you have created?


I will remind - even if they remain unanswered - the questions that I have raised. Furthermore, I will add a new one - the last one.

1. How come "Rue Bleue" - i.e. the ARF headquarters in Paris - symbolizes a long series of horror stories to left minded Armenians???

2. How come in Dashnag families, right wing newspapers are far more popular than left wing ones?

3. How do you explain that in one country the Armenian Reactionary Forces support a Fascist party - that you mildly call "nationalist" - and in another a Socialist party??? Can it be a sign of Intellectual Integrity and Honesty or the lack of it?
Also, how do you explain the fact that the ARF was financed by the SAVAK of Iran's Shah? Would you consider the Shah as Socialist minded?

[For obvious reasons, I will limit myself to well known cases that are "common knowledge???"]
4. Wasn't Ara Toranian kicked out of the "Nor Serount" for being left minded? Many like Ara have been kicked out of the "Nor Serount," ostracized and harassed for being left minded.

5. Can you please tell us why Aram Ter Minassian - the Grandson of Roupen Ter Minassian, a famous Dashnag - who's father was among the leaders of the party, left the "Nor Serount?"

6. What "Nor Serount" did to liberate Paradjanov and why did they limit themselves to mocking and labeling the members of "Comite Paradjanov" as "faggots?"

The ARF in France has had socialist leanings in the past (and still has in my understanding).

Repeating the same does not elucidate it. I have raised enough questions; so why don't you answer them????
Most of all, leave books aside and focus on reality.

Santini... He's an individual figure and his popularity (?) among Armenians doesn't have much to do with his political affiliation but rather with the perception of him being supportive of armenians.

Do you think that his Socialist or Communist opponents do not make similar pre-electoral promises and wouldn't be as supportive of Armenians???? Of course, they do and, of course, would be as supportive.
In any case, the point was that
1. In reality, political orientation is not determined by "socio-cultural" affinities
2. "Generally speaking, Armenians in France" have not "traditionally associated with the left"

I will not even comment on Balladur and Devedjian.
The first one I do not consider armenian, the second, so what...
I was speaking in general terms. Individuals (and Devedjian is a bit of a lone wolf) may stand on the other end of the political spectrum.

Please, let me remind you that the focus was neither Balladur nor Devedjian or Govciyan; the focus was the Armenian Community that produced them. Regardless of what may be our opinion of them, the fact remains that they are the products of the Armenian Community and, somehow, reflect it.

Can you please tell us how many Socialist or Communist parliamentarians do we have - or had in the recent past?

Armenians may have voted en masse for Nicolas Sarkozy in the last elections

As they have voted "en masse" for Chirac instead of Jospin; Giscard instead of Mitterand, Chirac instead of Mitterand etc. etc.

This doesn't invalidate my argument about general trends in the twentieth century at a time where the majority of armenians (as most immigrants) could not possibly associate with the right but felt rather inclined towards the left.

Your view is a reminiscence of Marx's "material conditions" and, though, I see some merit in "Historical Materialism," it remains a theory because the underlying model proved to be incomplete. In fact, Armenians, despite their socio-economic situation and conditions, mostly associated themselves with the right, instead of the left.
However, it is true that in France the proportion of left minded Armenians is, probably, the highest in the Diaspora; but, that is a reflection of the French Society and is not specific to Armenians.

Some armenians today are members of the front national, you know...

That simply make my point more credible as for the "socio-cultural" affinities. Yes, I'm aware that you said "in general."

"gay pride"

well, this obviously stems at the beginning from a left-oriented "societal" current. left-oriented outlooks in the "societal" sphere are nowadays often combined with "right"-oriented economics so the distinction is blurred.

but I gave this example only to make clear that the ARF (which I am neither a proponent nor an opponent of) is a complex organization traversed by contradicting currents.

First of all, if your goal was to show that the ARF is a "complex organization traversed by contradicting currents" than shouldn't you have mentioned a set of contradictory aspects, instead of just a single aspect? Contradictions, by definition, involve more than a single fact/aspect.

Second of all, in the context, what was the point in showing that the ARF is a "complex organization traversed by contradicting currents?"

And this might be explained by the fact it is spread accross different regions of the globe and that as the result its members do not share the same cultural perspectives.

The above is true of other Armenian organizations; however, only the ARF is known for
1. Political opportunism and flip-flopping
2. Physical aggression and harassment - including assasination - of members of the community

PS: I am not willing to engage (and waste my time) in a sterile and childish debate (where some people argue for the sake of arguing) on xxxxty armenian diaspora politics.

*repeats*
I can understand that - to use your own words - you "are not willing to engage in a sterile debate;" but, in that case you should not have opened, and with such confidence, Pandora's Box with utterly untenable statements like
" The ARF in France has always had close ties with the socialist party" and
" Generally speaking, Armenians in France have traditionally associated with the left."
Don't you think that it's a bit gratuitous to make exaggerated and untenable statements and consider any discussion of them as "a sterile and childish debate?"
Why run away from a situation that you have created?

PPS: I don't understand why you are so adamant to support the newly elected (thanks to massive spin) american puppet and how you can possibly label Lucin a hypocrite (?!).

Honestly, did you take the time to read the thread??? Did you take into consideration the words that I had for Sarkozy; or is the above just another gratuitous statement???
Bringing attention on the misinformation campaign of a couple of sore loser, envious Dashnags is not a support for Sarkozy. Dashnags resort to similar misinformation campaigns each time they lose a battle.

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

axel,
Have you read Axël?

I may have...

"Maintenant, puisque l'infini seul n'est pas un mensonge, enlevons-nous, oublieux des autres paroles humaines, en notre même Infini..." ?

(Strategically speaking, I must say this was not a very wise move on your part, Lucin, I mean, in the context of this discussion, given the "reactionary" reputation associated with the author. No doubt our progressist friend Siamanto will take advantage of this in order to denounce the collusion of the "reactionaries" )

[Lucin]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

Siamanto, I'm just having a hard time accepting that you are a female...

Oh, did I tell you that Sarkozy has appointed her as his good will attorney, following the discussion we had here? But can
you guess why he chose the Miss Female man over the much experienced Devedjian?

This is yet another uninformed statement by garmir biber.

axel,
Have you read Axël?

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

Just read Gaïdz Minassian's book.
The ARF in France has had socialist leanings in the past (and still has in my understanding).

Santini... He's an individual figure and his popularity (?) among Armenians doesn't have much to do with his political affiliation but rather with the perception of him being supportive of armenians.

I will not even comment on Balladur and Devedjian.
The first one I do not consider armenian, the second, so what...
I was speaking in general terms. Individuals (and Devedjian is a bit of a lone wolf) may stand on the other end of the political spectrum.

Armenians may have voted en masse for Nicolas Sarkozy in the last elections
This doesn't invalidate my argument about general trends in the twentieth century at a time where the majority of armenians (as most immigrants) could not possibly associate with the right but felt rather inclined towards the left.

Some armenians today are members of the front national, you know...

"gay pride"

well, this obviously stems at the beginning from a left-oriented "societal" current. left-oriented outlooks in the "societal" sphere are nowadays often combined with "right"-oriented economics so the distinction is blurred.

but I gave this example only to make clear that the ARF (which I am neither a proponent nor an opponent of) is a complex organization traversed by contradicting currents. And this might be explained by the fact it is spread accross different regions of the globe and that as the result its members do not share the same cultural perspectives.

PS: I am not willing to engage (and waste my time) in a sterile and childish debate (where some people argue for the sake of arguing) on xxxxty armenian diaspora politics.

PPS: I don't understand why you are so adamant to support the newly elected (thanks to massive spin) american puppet and how you can possibly label Lucin a hypocrite (?!).

[Siamanto]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

The ARF in France has always had close ties with the socialist party.

First of all, the "always" - that I have put in bold - would raise many eyebrows.

Second of all, how sincere or "close" - as you say, that I have also put in bold - it is...considering that, in Dashnag families, a right wing newspaper like "Le Figaro" was far far far more popular than left wing newspapers like "Liberation" or "L'humanite"..I still don't know many of them who read - or would read - "Liberation."

Most of all, "Rue Bleue" - i.e. the ARF headquarters in Paris - symbolizes a long series of horror stories to left minded Armenians???

Ideologically speaking, in the past, it has often stood opposed to the lebanese branch (with the socialist outlook taking over the nationalist one)

How do you explain that in one country the Armenian Reactionary Forces support a Fascist party - that you mildly call "nationalist" - and in another a Socialist party??? Can it be a sign of Intellectual Integrity and Honesty or the lack of it?
Also, how do you explain the fact that the ARF was financed by the SAVAK of Iran's Shah? Would you consider the Shah as Socialist minded?

Generally speaking, Armenians in France have traditionally associated with the left (for a number of reasons, socio-cultural, political and historical)

First of all, the Armenian Community of France should not be confused with the Armenian Reactionary Forces and the latter does not and - cannot - represent it - because they became of relatively minor importance; that's probably one of the main reasons why the Armenian Community of France had many achievements???

Second of all, the political spectrum of the community is much wider than what your statement seems to suggest. Is it an indication that Devedjian and Balladur belong to the right and Govciyan a centrist?

Most of all, how are the populations supporting right wing political groups different from the Armenians and/or the Socialists from a "socio-cultural" point of view? What does it mean???

Let's take the example of Issy-les-Moulineaux, one of the oldest and most important Armenian neighborhoods of the close suburbs of Paris - i.e. the Watertown of Paris????
1. Is Santini - who was and still is popular among Armenians - a member of the left?
2. Are the non-Armenians voting for him "socio-culturally" different from Issy's Armenians?
I don't know if the Corsicans of Issy voted for Santini more massively than the Armenians; but, the Corsicans that I knew did not vote for him.

So how was the Armenian Community "socio-culturally associated with the left???"

The french "Nor Seround" participates in such events as the gay "pride".

First of all, what does "Gay Pride" have to do with political orientation? Are you saying that no right wing organization supports "Gay Pride?"


Most of all
[For obvious reasons, I will limit myself to well known cases that are "common knowledge???"]
1. Wasn't Ara Toranian pushed out of the "Nor Serount" for being left minded? In fact, many like Ara have been kicked out of the "Nor Serount," ostracized and harassed for being left minded.

2. Can you please tell us why Aram Ter Minassian - the Grandson of Roupen Ter Minassian, a famous Dashnag - who's father was among the leaders of the party, left the "Nor Serount?"

[Armenian]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

Siamanto, I'm just having a hard time accepting that you are a female...

[Siamanto]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

Its funny how the ARF bunnies are supporting Royal merely because Sarkozy kicked them out of his coalition haha.

Կարմիր Բ,
I would not say that "Sarkozy kicked them out," but they were left with only one credible choice, because of the Devedjian-Sarkozy and the Govciyan-Bayrou associations. (Thanks God that) They don't have the political clout that they used to enjoy within the Armenian Community of France and they are desperate to "score points," so they have to "distinguish" themselves with political alliances.

I think they have done the same in Lebanon with Hesbollah. Flip-flop.

A couple of weeks ago, when I read, on Groong, about their flip-flop in Lebanon; I googled a bit to learn more about their historical alliance with the Phalange Party and found out a document that suggests that they - the Armenian Reactionary Forces - were financed by the Shah of Iran.
Yes, their political opportunism is no secret anymore.

[Siamanto]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

IN SEGOLENE ROYAL'S WORDS, SARKOZY CAN NOT KEEP HIS PROMISE ON STOPPING TURKEY-EU NEGOTIATIONS

PARIS, MAY 29, NOYAN TAPAN. Nicolas Sarkozy can not keep his promise concerning stopping the Turkey-EU negotiations process," Nikolas Sarkozy's opponent socialist Segolene Royal stated during the president's elections of France.

A press conference connected with the parliamentary elections to take place in France in June was organized on May 26 at the Mayor's Office of the city of La Rochelle. Some statements were made during the press conference.

Royal mentioned that some part of promises given by Sarkozy during the pre-electoral campaign were simply for getting a vote. In her words, the newly elected President "lied," promising to make changes in a number of spheres. "The time of truth will come for Sarkozy, as people will gradually understand the circumstance of their being cheated, because of unrealizable proposals put forward," Segolene Royal stated.

Source: http://www.nt.am/news.php?p=6&c=0&t=...onth=05&day=29 &shownews=100446&LangID=1

1. LOL What a surprise? Segolene Royal who lost the elections against Sarkozy has stated, during an electoral campaign, that Sarkozy won't be able electoral to keep pre-electoral promises!!!
LOL You're using the above to make your point????? How immature and unintuitive are you???
In any case, is Segolene Royal a "foe" for being in favor of continuing the negotiations for a full membership?

2. Let's assume - for the sake of the argument - that Sarkozy cannot - different from "will not" - succeed in keeping his promise because of geopolitical or other constraints or priorities:
2.1 Would that make him a hypocrite? No, because failing to execute a promise, despite all efforts, does not make a person a hypocrite.
2.2 Would that make him a foe? No, because failing to execute a promise, despite all efforts, would not make him a foe - as if it had to do with Armenians.


3. Most of all, why don't you produce the original and integral text of the electoral debate and stop hiding behind others, Miss Hypocrite???? I wonder how much more of your dishonesty we will witness???