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**Aramo** · 06-03-2007, 06:01 PM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

ooops, sorry guys, didn't notice in the beginning, that similar thread already exists. Sorry one more time, please delete this thread.

**Armenian** · 06-03-2007, 06:13 PM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

No one is giving away the liberated territories.

Not even a square meter of our liberated territories can be in discussion. Besides the fact that the territories in question belong to Armenians, they are also vital for the Armenian Republic militarily and economically. What's more, most of the lands in question are already privatized and divided up amongst the native population in Artsakh. The Artsakh military, and the general population there, will fight to the last soul to ensure their hold on every square meter of the liberated territories.

Thus, anyone that even attempts to give up any amount of our liberated lands will be killed promptly. There are many individuals, organizations, associations, militants, etc, that will make sure that such an attempt does not go unpunished. Have no doubt.

In my opinion, such rumors about "imminent" deals being made with Turks/Azeris most probably stem from foreign intelligence services and the political manipulations of certain major powers interested in the region. These anti-Armenian forces are attempting to start a social/political upheaval within the Armenian Republic similar to what they have done elsewhere.

Several moths ago the big rumor was that Kocharyan and company had struck a deal to sell Artsakh to the Azeris for 9 billion US dollars. Sadly, because the ruling administration is hated by the hungry masses, there were many Armenians willing to believe the dark fairy tale in question.

Just realize that these dangerous rumors begin circulating around election times. Several weeks ago it was the elections in Armenia. And now, its the upcoming elections in Artsakh. Nonetheless, no one, especially the dominant Artsakhtsi establishment in Yerevan and Stepanakert, is willing to give away any lands.

I fear, however, that some well meaning but ignorant Armenian, feeling betrayed and distraught by such rumors, may attempt to bring harm to our leadership by assassination. If such an attack occurs against the current leadership in Yerevan and/or Stepanakert, it will only serve to weaken the Armenian Republic. Moreover, such an attack will only serve to weaken Armenia's vital alliance with Russia and Iran and it will only serve to endanger the unique internal stability that our nation has thus far enjoyed.

A violent uprising against the current leadership in Armenia and Artsakh is what our enemies want, it's what certain major powers want. The aforementioned have been seeking an internal uprising, a social upheaval in the Armenian Republic. Sadly, because the general public generally speaking only understands the politics of the stomach, Armenia today is in danger of falling victim to foreign manipulation. In this respect, I have more confidence in Moscow and Tehran not allowing Armenian politicians too veer to far off course.

Nevertheless, it's always good to be vigilant.

**Aramo** · 06-03-2007, 06:15 PM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

Originally posted by Armenian

No one is giving away the liberated territories.

Not even a square meter of our liberated territories can be in discussion. Besides the fact that the territories in question belong to Armenians, they are also vital for the Armenian Republic militarily and economically. What's more, most of the lands in question are already privatized and divided up amongst the native population in Artsakh. The Artsakh military, and the general population, will fight to the last soul to ensure its hold on every square meter of the lands in question.

Thus, anyone that even attempts to give up any amount of our liberated lands will be killed promptly. There are many individuals, organizations, associations, militants, etc, that will make sure that such an attempt does not go unpunished. Have no doubt.

In my opinion, such rumors about "imminent" deals being made with Turks/Azeris most probably stem from foreign intelligence services and the manipulations of certain major powers - ones that are attempting to start a social/political upheaval within the Armenian Republic.

Several moths ago the big rumor was that Kocharyan and company had struck a deal to sell Artsakh to the Azeris for 9 billion US dollars. Sadly, because the ruling administration is hated by the hungry masses, there were many Armenians willing to believe the dark fairy tale in question.

Just realize that these dangerous rumors begin circulating around election times. Several weeks ago it was the elections in Armenia. And now, its the upcoming elections in Artsakh. No one, especially the dominant Artsakhtsi establishment in Yerevan and Stepanakert, is willing to give away any lands.

I fear, however, that some well meaning but ignorant Armenian, feeling betrayed and distraught by such rumors, may attempt to bring harm to our leadership by assassination. If such an attack occurs against the current leadership in Yerevan and Stepanakert, it will only serve to weaken the Armenian Republic. Moreover, such an attack will only serve to weaken Armenia's vital alliance with Russia and Iran and it will only serve to endanger the unique internal stability that our nation has thus far enjoyed.

A violent uprising against the current leadership in Armenia and Artsakh is what our enemies want, it's what certain major powers want. The aforementioned have been seeking an internal uprising, a social upheaval in the Armenian Republic. Sadly, because the general public generally speaking only understands the politics of the stomach, Armenia today is in danger of falling victim to foreign manipulation. In this respect, I have more confidence in Moscow and Tehran not allowing Armenian politicians too veer to far off course.

Nevertheless, it's always good to be vigilant.

Agree with some of it, not with all though (particularly with Moscow and Tehran part of your posting), but I guess this is not the time for the internal arguments.

So, let me just tell the main point of this action. It is to show to people, first of all to our government, that Armenian people will not accept any trade. This, on one hand will help Kocharyan on negotiations, cause he will be able to say that it is not so much him, it is the people who are against the surrender,and bring the proofs of it. On the other hand, if surrender is his intention, this action will show him that Armenians will not tolerate it. However, we do not pursue any internal political goal. On the comments page we already deleted huge amount of comments, just because some people were trying to use this as a propaganda against the president. It is not that we support or do not support him. This action will not be used against or in favor of Kocharyan. Again, the only goal of this is to show, that people are against the surrender, and will not let that happen.

P.S. Moderators, again please move our posts in the other similar thread and close this one. Thanks.

**Armenian** · 06-03-2007, 07:00 PM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

Originally posted by Aramo View Post

Agree with some of it, not with all though (particularly with Moscow and Tehran part of your posting), but I guess this is not the time for the internal arguments.

If you think that Tehran and Moscow will allow Armenia to mutilate itself thereby serving Turkish, Azeri, American, Georgian interests - then you simply do not understand the national interests of Russia and Iran.

So, let me just tell the main point of this action. It is to show to people, first of all to our government, that Armenian people will not accept any trade. This, on one hand will help Kocharyan on negotiations, cause he will be able to say that it is not so much him, it is the people who are against the surrender,and bring the proofs of it. On the other hand, if surrender is his intention, this action will show him that Armenians will not tolerate it. However, we do not pursue any internal political goal. On the comments page we already deleted huge amount of comments, just because some people were trying to use this as a propaganda against the president. It is not that we support or do not support him. This action will not be used against or in favor of Kocharyan. Again, the only goal of this is to show, that people are against the surrender, and will not let that happen.

You appear to be approaching this matter rather responsibly and objectively. However, your actions in spreading such false information may cause undue panic within some circles. As a result, your actions may serve to undermine Armenia's internal stability. These types of misinformation circulate around election times. And as we all know, in several weeks Artsakh will elect a new government.

No one is going to give away any of the liberated territories.

**Aramo** · 06-03-2007, 10:36 PM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

Originally posted by Armenian View Post

If you think that Tehran and Moscow will allow Armenia to mutilate itself thereby serving Turkish, Azeri, American, Georgian interests - then you simply do not understand the national interests of Russia and Iran.

This is not what I meant. I am saying that relying on Moscow, Tehran, Paris, Washington or the Lord himself is the biggest mistake that we can make. In fact, we already are making that mistake. I strongly believe that we can rely only on ourselves and no one else.

No one is going to give away any of the liberated territories.

OK, than read this articles please, and after you do so, answer this questions.

FM Mammadyarov: "Agreement on deployment of peacekeepers in security belt achieved"

http://www.today.az/news/politics/41398.html

OSCE Minsk Group made "sensational statements" in Baku, Azeri media says

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=22444

NKR President: Do not believe in tales as if Lachin will be handed over to Azerbaijan

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=22368&page=8

Bryza lifts veil of secrecy from coordinated principles on Karabakh

http://panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=22511

nytimes.com

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/01/america/NA-GEN-US-Armenia-Azerbaijan.php

Now please answer this question: If nobody is going to give to azers the liberated territory, why the hell our minister of foreign affairs is not making a statement, that all this is just bs? Why in reply to all this we keep hearing from him about the necessity of peaceful negotiations, compromises and the necessity of Independence to Artsakh. But nothing about the liberated territory. Instead, president of Artsakh is declaring, that Kashatagh will not be given to azeris.

NKR President: Do not believe in tales as if Lachin will be handed over to Azerbaijan

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=22368&page=8

I understand that, very good, but how about the rest of it? It looks like it will be given to them, isn't it?

Anyway, if you prefer after all this to sit and think that Moscow and Tehran "will not let this happen", and nobody is going to give anything, its your choice. We are not ready for that, that is why we started this "petition", and will take this even further, to the streets. As far as the internal stability and Kocharyan, I personally as an Armenian agree to a civil war in Armenia, if that is what it takes to preserve the liberated territory. Even more, I agree to loose the internal stability of Armenia, if that is what it takes to stop this talks about the surrender. This talks and this mentality is harming Armenian people very bad.

P.S. By the way, Armenia is not that internally stable.

**skhara** · 06-04-2007, 02:38 AM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

Originally posted by Aramo View Post

Anyway, if you prefer after all this to sit and think that Moscow and Tehran "will not let this happen", and nobody is going to give anything, its your choice. We are not ready for that, that is why we started this "petition", and will take this even further, to the streets. As far as the internal stability and Kocharyan, I personally as an Armenian agree to a civil war in Armenia, if that is what it takes to preserve the liberated territory. Even more, I agree to loose the internal stability of Armenia, if that is what it takes to stop this talks about the surrender. This talks and this mentality is harming Armenian people very bad.

One has to pay lip service to certain to certain powerful elements.

**Lucin** · 06-04-2007, 05:24 AM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

Originally posted by Aramo View Post

Anyway, if you prefer after all this to sit and think that Moscow and Tehran "will not let this happen", and nobody is going to give anything, its your choice.

It's not a choice.Unfortunately, as painful as it sounds Armenia�s fate is not totally in her hands. Tehran and Moscow�s impact are huge and determining. You are living in a fantasy if you can�t see that.

We are not ready for that, that is why we started this "petition", and will take this even further, to the streets. As far as the internal stability and Kocharyan, I personally as an Armenian agree to a civil war in Armenia, if that is what it takes to preserve the liberated territory.

Civil war???Against who? No one wants to give our lands back. Your kinds are dangerous.

Even more, I agree to loose the internal stability of Armenia, if that is what it takes to stop this talks about the surrender. This talks and this mentality is harming Armenian people very bad.

P.S. By the way, Armenia is not that internally stable

Actually, your shallow mentality is harming Armenians.

**Armenian** · 06-04-2007, 05:36 AM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

Generally speaking, I support what you are doing. At the very least, individuals like you are showing officials in the US State Department and elsewhere that Armenians are seriously concerned about the future of the liberated territories. However, be careful of the rhetoric you use, for it may have dire consequences. Its a fine line you are walking.

Originally posted by Aramo View Post

This is not what I meant. I am saying that relying on Moscow, Tehran, Paris, Washington or the Lord himself is the biggest mistake that we can make. In fact, we already are making that mistake. I strongly believe that we can rely only on ourselves and no one else.

This is a bit naive of you. When you have a tiny, landlocked, beleaguered, impoverished nation of two million people you "will" be dependent on others - be it Moscow, Tehran, Paris, Washington or the Lord himself...

Regardless of how much a cat may want to roar like a lion, it can't. Thus, Armenia, in her current state, is dependent on foreign power for survival. And the only real options we have in the world today is Moscow and Tehran.

Now please answer this question: If nobody is going to give to azers the liberated territory, why the hell our minister of foreign affairs is not making a statement, that all this is just bs? Why in reply to all this we keep hearing from him about the necessity of peaceful negotiations, compromises and the necessity of Independence to Artsakh. But nothing about the liberated territory. Instead, president of Artsakh is declaring, that Kashatagh will not be given to azeris... I understand that, very good, but how about the rest of it? It looks like it will be given to them, isn't it?

Like enker Skhara stated, in diplomacy, especially when you are a small dependent struggling power, you have to pay lip service to various major powers. I suggest you take a few courses in political science or international diplomacy. There are serious diplomatic games going on. That is essentially what I see happening when I read comments made by this or that politician in Yerevan. Having said that, however, I must also say that the situation on the ground seems to be quite different. If you have not traveled to Artsakh I suggest you do so. There are no indicators there that the liberated territories are to be handed back. On the contrary, I see people there very confidant about their hold on the territories. I also see Armenia/Artsakh engaged in a diplomatic game of deception.

Anyway, if you prefer after all this to sit and think that Moscow and Tehran "will not let this happen", and nobody is going to give anything, its your choice.

Moscow was quite involved in making sure that Kocharian's/Sarkisian's Republican party stayed in power during the elections several weeks ago. I also see them needing Armenia as a strong regional force for the foreseeable future. However, fundamentally, we need to primarily rely on ourselves. But there is only so much you could do by yourself.

We are not ready for that, that is why we started this "petition", and will take this even further, to the streets. As far as the internal stability and Kocharyan, I personally as an Armenian agree to a civil war in Armenia, if that is what it takes to preserve the liberated territory. Even more, I agree to loose the internal stability of Armenia, if that is what it takes to stop this talks about the surrender. This talks and this mentality is harming Armenian people very bad.

The above is what Turks and other antagonists are waiting for. You are walking a very dangerous line with you rhetoric. I don't know what to make of you. Care to tell us who and/or what you are representing? Are you one of those Diasporan "warriors" who prefer waging virtual wars from your suburban homes within the United States?

P.S. By the way, Armenia is not that internally stable.

Relatively speaking and comparatively speaking Armenia is quite stable. The Armenian economy also continues to grow despite its major handicaps. The Armenian military continues its modernization. As a result, we don't need doom-sayers and panic mongers ruing it for us.

**Aramo** · 06-04-2007, 10:39 PM

Re: Against Surrender Of Liberated Territories

First of all, I didn't come to this forum to engage in political arguments. However, I will write a few words now.
Lucin- The civil war thing was just an example to show, that we don't care about Kocharyan, Sarkisyan, Demirchyan or anyone else from Armenian political elite. All we care about right now is the preservation of the land. About Moscow, Tehran etc. Then, if you don't like, lets change it. Don't just sit and say that this is so bad, sounds painful bla bla bla. Change it. Do something. I am doing. Not much, but this is my maximum, I can't do anything else. First of all, lets delete this good old armenian habit- nstel taxtin spasel baxtin. As far as shallow mentality and harming the nation... well that is your opinion, stay with it, I am not going to argue about this.

Armenian

This is not naive at all.
Naive is to sit and rely on someone else (Moscow, Tehran etc) rather than on your own nation, naive and harmful is to think that Armenians should always be under some other superpower, when we have the potential to live our own lives without taking orders from someone else, naive is to believe that we are playing some kind of a game, and azers and Minsk group reps are dumn enough not to understand that, naive is to think that when azers and third parties are declaring the surrender and our reps say that we will not give Kashatagh means that we will not give anything, naive is to forget the lessons of the past, naive is to forget what general Dro, our great hero, who first entered Artsakh and fought azeri musavatists did, to forget that he ordered Garegin Njdeh to leave Syunik, thanks God Njdeh didn't obey the order, Naive is to forget that Kars was surrendered without a single shot because of the diplomatic maneuvers, similar to those we have now, naive is to forget that 3 Armenian generals were imprisoned in Kars because they were not believing that Kars can be surrendered, naive is to think that Armenian economic growth is due to the government efforts, naive is to forget that this government has enough bastards to arrest Jirayr Sefilyan, the hero of Armenian nation... I can continue this for a long time.

P.S. You don't have to write an answer. There will be no reply. I understood already that this site is not going to support the action. However, if you still want to chat, you can find me on one of the forums mentioned in my first posting here. Good bye guys, stay good, and let God bless all Armenians.

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