Elections in Armenia

[Gevork]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

Folks can someone explain the incident with Jirayr Sefilian. I just dont want the hatred for Levon to blind us to what is going on in our homeland.

[Gevork]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

He is in prison for 'very' good reasons, and after the shit he tried to pull he should rot in prison. Having fought in the Artsakh war of liberation does not necessarily make one a saint, nor does it make one a politician/diplomat nor does it make one a rational individual. I have written enough about his case.

what is his case? i dont know

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

Gevork: Armenian, Crusader1492 and Virgil are completely disconnected from reality and the truth re: the opposition or who comprises it and political prisoners in the RA. You can't trust them to tell you the weather let alone the goings on in the RA.

For instance, Serzh, through his spokesperson, has recently admitted, on or about 4/17/2008, that the opposition exists beyond merely LTP supporters. http://www.armpress.com/asbarez/2008/04/17/1004/“Levon Ter-Petrosian does not represent all opposition forces,” said Sargsyan, adding that a large number of groups and individuals opposing the current government and not represented in parliament have come out against the policies, approaches and statements made by Armenia’s first president.

Yet, this axis of stupidity can't wrap their little bug brains around such a concept (i.e. that one could be opposed to both LTP and the current government)

And, except for LTP, Kocharian does not experience such a hasty rise to power.

Forgive them, Gevork, they are dumb and cannot comprehend such complexities.

[Gevork]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

From doing a little research online, I found out that Jirayr Sefilyan is opposed to the idea of giving up the liberated lands (around Artsakh)

actualy as patriots his views are more similar to ours. This guy is a hardliner. So from what I see, the present RA government imprisons those who are hardliners, and those who are sided with the "west"

Which gets me to the conclusion that they just dont want anyone taking power from them.


Im not against a dictatorship infact I would want Armenia to be a Monarchy but this person has to be for the Armenian people and not just worry about his own power.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

Armenians in the RA prefer more information not less and are equally weary of information from the state and the opposition for want of objectivity and excessive prosletyzing. http://www.hetq.am/eng/politics/8032/

A variety of opinions exist in the RA re: free & independent media, problems faced by the press and fixing the media. http://www.hetq.am/eng/politics/8011/

A discussion exists in the RA public re: the current political crisis. http://www.hetq.am/eng/politics/7988/

http://www.hetq.am/eng/politics/7966/

You see that group sksel-a id'd in the above link? At least one newssoure in the RA is reporting that a Russian analytical report is claiming that they are a U.K. funded youth movement. http://www.azg.am/EN/2008050104

And a British-Armenian blogger is reporting that another blogger in the RA is linking sksel-a to activists close to LTP and a politically biased organization acting as a tool for the radical opposition. http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/20...d-youth-group/

Another article mentioninig sksel'a. http://cache.search.yahoo-ht2.akadns...icp=1&.intl=us

Another article about sksel'a by the British-Armenian blogger above. http://www.eurasianet.org/department...v040507b.shtml (apparently, release of Jirair is part of their platform)

Here is the somewhat dormant (shutdown?) website for sksel'a. http://sksela.wordpress.com/

Another somewhat dormant website for the group. http://armyouth.blogspot.com/

A propaganda video from the group. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN0VkZGJpEM

Hey, they flashmob. http://sksela.wordpress.com/2007/03/14/23/

A more recent website of the group. http://sksela.info/

[Armenian]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

what is his case? i dont know

Lifelong ARF member Jirayr Sefilian was a courageous war time leader, but, in the opinion of many close to him, his relative wartime fame got to his head in peacetime. Even in the opinion of many high ranking ARF-ers that I have spoken to, including ARF members in Canada that know Jirary personally, Jirayr clearly overstepped his boundaries. Apparently, he and several others were organizing an armed group with the intention of assassinating Armenian official for planning to give Armenian lands to the Azeris. He and his armed group were getting ready to assassinate Armenian politicians simply based on vicious rumors and hearsay, stupid and dangerous rumors such as the widespread tale about Kocharyan selling Artsakh to the Azeris for 9 billion US dollars. This dangerous rumor was relatively widespread in Armenia a year or two ago. Having fought in the Artsakh war of liberation does not necessarily make one a saint, nor does it make one a politician/diplomat nor does it make one a rational individual. The arrest of Jirayr should not worry anyone too much, the authorities did the right thing.

As a result of Jirayr's unrepentant and aggressive attitudes in court, the government has not released him. As a result of his imprisonment, Jirayr sided with the treasonous criminal Levon Ter Petrosian to make a case for himself. Even according to his close ARF comrades what Jirary has been doing is irrational, self-serving and borderline insane. Putting aside what Jirayr attempted with Levon Petrosian, on the face of it, what Jirayr and his comrades did was noble and even commendable. However, a viable nation, a strong government, a healthy society, can 'NOT' allow military men, or politicians for that matter, to simply assemble armed gangs for whatever reason just because they feel like it. The mere thought of it is absurd on many levels, it's simply third world. In the longterm, such a chaotic situation would be a serious danger to the internal health of our nation - after all, we are not Afghans, nor are we Somalians. There needs to be a 'line' that military men, such as Jirayr, should not cross. What Jirayr and company did cannot be allowed in our nation, no armed gangs regardless of how well meaning can be allowed free reign. And yes, there can only be 'one' armed gang, one mafia - the central authorities. This is the case in much of the civilized world.

Having said that, I have to say that there is no chance in hell that the current administration in Yerevan, Kocharyan/Sarkissian, is willing to give up any of our lands in Artsakh. Such talk is absolute nonsense it only serves the interests of Washington DC and Ankara. As bad as Kochryan and Sarkissian are domestically, they have done an excellent job diplomatically and strategically, especially in the field of foreign policy and establishing ties with Russia and Iran. Nonetheless, if one day some politician in Yerevan decides to give away lands in Artsakh - rest assured, we wont need Jirayr, there will be a multitude of men that would rise up and put a stop to it. So, I would suggest you all not to worry too much about Artsakh - unless that is, the next president is pro-American, as in the case of Levon Petrosian. What's more, even if Armenians collectively decided to give Artsakh away to the Azeris - Russia and Iran would not allow it. So, let's grow up and not spread stupid rumors like - Kocharyan is willing to sell Artsakh back to the Azeri Turks for 9 billions dollars.

The rest of the war veterans (Erkrapah) must first get to know the world they live in before they began to dictate or demand long-term state policy. The Erkrapah should not get involved in international diplomacy. The Erkarpah is made up of simple men who somehow ended up in the Artsakh conflict, and now are war veterans with 'political' ideas. Despite the fact that they fought, many them are corrupt and ignorant. We have few professional military individuals like General Seyran Ohanian. The rest of our powerful military, men like the late Vazgen Sarkisian, or the drug addicted monster of Etchmiadzin Manuel Grigorian are simple village folk, with village mentalities.

However, this does not mean that we should all close our eyes and allow officials in Yerevan to do whatever they want. When we see obvious and blatant mistakes, or treason, like the ones we saw with Levon Ter Petrosian, than the military and the public can step in and made proper adjustments in government. Thus far, I do not see any geostrategic problems coming out of Yerevan. Kocharyan and company have stopped the "Paul Gobble" plan, the "TARC" movement, Levon's treason, American meddling in Armenian politics and many-many other things. I also believe that the current leadership in Yerevan has done a masterful job in strengthening Russian-Armenian relations, Iranian-Armenian relations, at the same time kept close and cordial relations with the EU and America.

One of the fundamental reasons that lead to the Erkrapah dispute with the ruling authorities was over taxes. Since the war in Artsakh, the Erkrapah have not been paying taxes. Many within the Erkarpah are successful businessmen, wealthy and powerful. A new law was passed not too long ago that required the Erkrapah to start paying taxes. As a result of this new regulation, many of the Erkrapah hierarchy, those who had previously pushed Levon Petrosian out of office in 1998, miraculously jumped onto the Levon Petrosian camp. Naturally, getting rid of the Artsakhtsi power in Yerevan and replacing it with Yerevantsi power also played a role in the psychology behind their decision to back Levon. Vicious lies against Kocharyan and Sargsyan played their role as well. Nonetheless, regardless of the reasons, what the Erkraph did was self-serving and despicable.

Unfortunately, most Armenians today only think about today, not tomorrow. Most Armenians only think about their stomachs, not Armenia. Simple people can not see past their stomachs nor their empty wallets.

[Gevork]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

Lifelong ARF member Jirayr Sefilian was a courageous war time leader, but, in the opinion of many close to him, his relative wartime fame got to his head in peacetime. Even in the opinion of many high ranking ARF-ers that I have spoken to, including ARF members in Canada that know Jirary personally, Jirayr clearly overstepped his boundaries. Apparently, he and several others were organizing an armed group with the intention of assassinating Armenian official for planning to give Armenian lands to the Azeris. He and his armed group were getting ready to assassinate Armenian politicians simply based on vicious rumors and hearsay, stupid and dangerous rumors such as the widespread tale about Kocharyan selling Artsakh to the Azeris for 9 billion US dollars. This dangerous rumor was relatively widespread in Armenia a year or two ago. Having fought in the Artsakh war of liberation does not necessarily make one a saint, nor does it make one a politician/diplomat nor does it make one a rational individual. The arrest of Jirayr should not worry anyone too much, the authorities did the right thing.

As a result of Jirayr's unrepentant and aggressive attitudes in court, the government has not released him. As a result of his imprisonment, Jirayr sided with the treasonous criminal Levon Ter Petrosian to make a case for himself. Even according to his close ARF comrades what Jirary has been doing is irrational, self-serving and borderline insane. Putting aside what Jirayr attempted with Levon Petrosian, on the face of it, what Jirayr and his comrades did was noble and even commendable. However, a viable nation, a strong government, a healthy society, can 'NOT' allow military men, or politicians for that matter, to simply assemble armed gangs for whatever reason just because they feel like it. The mere thought of it is absurd on many levels, it's simply third world. In the longterm, such a chaotic situation would be a serious danger to the internal health of our nation - after all, we are not Afghans, nor are we Somalians. There needs to be a 'line' that military men, such as Jirayr, should not cross. What Jirayr and company did cannot be allowed in our nation, no armed gangs regardless of how well meaning can be allowed free reign. And yes, there can only be 'one' armed gang, one mafia - the central authorities. This is the case in much of the civilized world.

Having said that, I have to say that there is no chance in hell that the current administration in Yerevan, Kocharyan/Sarkissian, is willing to give up any of our lands in Artsakh. Such talk is absolute nonsense it only serves the interests of Washington DC and Ankara. As bad as Kochryan and Sarkissian are domestically, they have done an excellent job diplomatically and strategically, especially in the field of foreign policy and establishing ties with Russia and Iran. Nonetheless, if one day some politician in Yerevan decides to give away lands in Artsakh - rest assured, we wont need Jirayr, there will be a multitude of men that would rise up and put a stop to it. So, I would suggest you all not to worry too much about Artsakh - unless that is, the next president is pro-American, as in the case of Levon Petrosian. What's more, even if Armenians collectively decided to give Artsakh away to the Azeris - Russia and Iran would not allow it. So, let's grow up and not spread stupid rumors like - Kocharyan is willing to sell Artsakh back to the Azeri Turks for 9 billions dollars.

The rest of the war veterans (Erkrapah) must first get to know the world they live in before they began to dictate or demand long-term state policy. The Erkrapah should not get involved in international diplomacy. The Erkarpah is made up of simple men who somehow ended up in the Artsakh conflict, and now are war veterans with 'political' ideas. Despite the fact that they fought, many them are corrupt and ignorant. We have few professional military individuals like General Seyran Ohanian. The rest of our powerful military, men like the late Vazgen Sarkisian, or the drug addicted monster of Etchmiadzin Manuel Grigorian are simple village folk, with village mentalities.

However, this does not mean that we should all close our eyes and allow officials in Yerevan to do whatever they want. When we see obvious and blatant mistakes, or treason, like the ones we saw with Levon Ter Petrosian, than the military and the public can step in and made proper adjustments in government. Thus far, I do not see any geostrategic problems coming out of Yerevan. Kocharyan and company have stopped the "Paul Gobble" plan, the "TARC" movement, Levon's treason, American meddling in Armenian politics and many-many other things. I also believe that the current leadership in Yerevan has done a masterful job in strengthening Russian-Armenian relations, Iranian-Armenian relations, at the same time kept close and cordial relations with the EU and America.

One of the fundamental reasons that lead to the Erkrapah dispute with the ruling authorities was over taxes. Since the war in Artsakh, the Erkrapah have not been paying taxes. Many within the Erkarpah are successful businessmen, wealthy and powerful. A new law was passed not too long ago that required the Erkrapah to start paying taxes. As a result of this new regulation, many of the Erkrapah hierarchy, those who had previously pushed Levon Petrosian out of office in 1998, miraculously jumped onto the Levon Petrosian camp. Naturally, getting rid of the Artsakhtsi power in Yerevan and replacing it with Yerevantsi power also played a role in the psychology behind their decision to back Levon. Vicious lies against Kocharyan and Sargsyan played their role as well. Nonetheless, regardless of the reasons, what the Erkraph did was self-serving and despicable.

Unfortunately, most Armenians today only think about today, not tomorrow. Most Armenians only think about their stomachs, not Armenia. Simple people can not see past their stomachs nor their empty wallets.

These people who were/are backing him up, how significant are there numbers? does he have support from the military? If he does, I see nothing wrong with his message. He is saying that morality is becoming more and more insignificant in Armenia and amongst Armenians. He is arguing that with out the "Haykakan namus/tasib" we as a people will parish. Prostitution in Armenia is prevailent, and stripclubs are everywhere. If this kind of life style is becoming the norm, then Nationalism will surely perish.

[Armenian]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

These people who were/are backing him up, how significant are there numbers? does he have support from the military? If he does, I see nothing wrong with his message. He is saying that morality is becoming more and more insignificant in Armenia and amongst Armenians. He is arguing that with out the "Haykakan namus/tasib" we as a people will parish. Prostitution in Armenia is prevailent, and stripclubs are everywhere. If this kind of life style is becoming the norm, then Nationalism will surely perish.

Jirayr supporters can be anyone who has a problem with the current government. For obvious reasons, Jirayr has supporter in the Erkrapah circles but virtually none in the professional military. In a certain sense, those who support Jirayr don't care about him, what they care about is to discredit the government. I have met some individuals who know Jirayr personally. Thus, unlike all the hearsay in our community regarding his case, I know what I am talking about. Due to Jirayr's aggressive, unrepentant, irrational, illogical attitude, the ARF has more-or-less washed its hands from helping him and the government will not release him any time soon.

Gevork, I don't mean to insult you but are you an adult?

You need to stop thinking of Armenia as an insulated 'community' and start thinking of it as a 'nation' in development. I know that you as a diasporan will have a difficult time with dealing with this. War hero or no war hero, Jirayr is full of shit. What haykakan "namus" what haykakan "tasib" is he bullshitting about when he is bending over for a treasonous criminal like Levon Petrosian? During Levon's rule all the whorehouses, strip clubs and casinos were right in the center of Yerevan. Corruption and immorality was ripe throughout the country during Levon's rule. Armenia was being sold to Turks during Levon's rule. Would a man that talks of namus and tasib align himself with Levon Petrosian and his treasonous criminals? That is what our war hero Jirayr did.

Besides, let's keep namus and tasib in the family and not in the government. I don't expect to see morality in government circles. I simply expect the government to protect Armenia's borders and help promote the nation's economy - by any means necessary. When fathers and mothers instill namus and tasib in their children, they won't grow up to be street punks and prostitutes. Nonetheless, prostitution is found in all nation, especially in poor struggling nations. As a matter of fact, prostitution is a problem even in Iran. Prostitution is not "prevalent" in Armenia, nor are strip clubs "everywhere." But they do exist. In the case of strip clubs, it's new for them, it's western it's what they see in American films, let them get it out of their system. Nation building has never been easy, anywhere.

[Gevork]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

Armenian, I was reading the articles you posted, and it looks like Russia practicaly owns Armenia From the nuclear plant, to the Aluminum mines which are 40% of Armenia's export. All of that revenue that should go to Armenia is going to Russia.

Russia has got Armenia by the balls. They have a military presence in Armenia, and take that as a reason to takeover Armenia's assets. Also I read that Levon was also Pro-Russian. I did not know that. I think Russia is a double edged sword to us. We are not allies with them we are subbordinate to them. It is a difficult situation.

Geogia was in the same place as us, they broke away from russia, and now have Abkhazia and Ossetia funded by russia trying to break free.

[Gevork]

Re: Presidential elections 2008 in Armenia

Armenian, I was reading the articles you posted, and it looks like Russia practicaly owns Armenia From the nuclear plant, to the Aluminum mines which are 40% of Armenia's export. All of that revenue that should go to Armenia is going to Russia.

Russia has got Armenia by the balls. They have a military presence in Armenia, and take that as a reason to takeover Armenia's assets. Also I read that Levon was also Pro-Russian. I did not know that. I think Russia is a double edged sword to us. We are not allies with them we are subbordinate to them. It is a difficult situation.

Geogia was in the same place as us, they broke away from russia, and now have Abkhazia and Ossetia funded by russia trying to break free.