Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

`Antranig and His Times' by Hratchig Simonian


http://groong.usc.edu/tcc/tcc-20050228.html

http://groong.usc.edu/tcc/tcc-20060612.html

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Artsakh Garegin remained a committed Dashnak to his death. Like many great Dashnak leaders, Garegin had serious quarrels with the Dashnak leadership. They disagreed on policy matters. However, Garegin never once stopped from being a Dashnaktsakan. I suggest you read his biography as well.

I possess all of Njdeh's works, and some very rare items as well. I am completely Njdehakan from head to toe. I love and worship him with all of my heart and sould.

However, the fact of the matter is, Njdeh had some definite problems with the ARF leadership, which led to his resignation from the party in 1937. Read his memvours.

As regards Dro, while he was a superb military commander, he was an inexperience politician and allowed some serious political mistakes. And it was Dro who signed the handover of the Armenian republic to the bolsheviks and thereafter "abandoned" Armenia...How's that for "Death or Freedom"..

[AR MENIA]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

General Andranik and the Armenian revolutionary movement, Andranig Chalabian.

I have read posts of Armenian for a long time now and personally i think he is the best poster Armenia has ever had

Sorry but on this one i can't agree with you enker Armenian: "When the geopolitical climate in the Caucasus got unbearable General Andranik, unlike Dro and Garegin, abandoned the Armenian nation"

General Andranik has dedicated his life fighting for Armenia, if he wasn't alive in those times many more Armenians had fallen to the hands of the turks.
Maybe he was a bad politician, maybe he should listen more often to the "real politicians" but saying general Andranik abandoned the Armenian nation is not correct.

The ARF is supposed to serve the nation but it's not the nation, therefore abondoning the ARF does not mean that one is also abondoning the Armenian nation.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

The dashnaks of those days were politicians, the only thing they could think about was their own, people like Andranik come maybe ones in a hundred years. The dasnak have betraid him, selling him to the Turks, you're saying that Andranik was not a great politician I say xxxx politics they needed to train a army form a allaince with Europe and xxxx the turks from evrey side not work with our enemies. Dashankner have done great things but they've also maid great mistakes like when the young turks came in power, Andranik warned the dasnaks about them but they ddin't listen.

[Armenian]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

And it was Dro who signed the handover of the Armenian republic to the bolsheviks and thereafter "abandoned" Armenia...How's that for "Death or Freedom"..

Yeah, I'm sure you would have preferred death for the Armenian nation. Correct?

The ARF slogan "death or freedom" applies to the martiks, not the nation. Enough Martiks died at the hands of Turks and Bolsheviks to prove their slogan accurate.

Artsakh, this is perhaps the most stupid comment you have made thus far. I hope you were laughing when you wrote this. Your obsession and your futile attempts at proving yourself correct is compromising your intellectual integrity. Your comment was so stupid, such as desperate move, that I'm not even going to waste by time trying to explain it. I'm sure sane individuals can see right through it.

It's so pathetic at how low you would reach to justify your sick obsession.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

However, no matter how one looks at it, it's accurate. When things got geopolitically unbearable for Andranik he left for California. Simple as that. No one told him to retire in Fresno, he decided to do that all by himself.

Are you completely ignorant?

The republic of Armenia of 1918, under Dashnak control, signed the following agreement with the Turks:

"The republic of Armenia promises to help the Turks to fight against General Andranik."

What's a miracle is that, Andranik continued to opperate secretly in Armenia for as long as he did.

Needless to say, it is kind of difficult to stay somewhere when the dashnaks have sent their entire security organs after you. It's kind of hard to operate under such circumstances. If they captured Andranik, they were going to hand him over to the Turks. Thus, Andranik had not only the external enemies-ie turks- to worry about, but also internal enemies.

before he left, the hero handed Njdeh the torch to continue the struggle.

[Armenian]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

The dashnaks of those days were politicians, the only thing they could think about was their own, people like Andranik come maybe ones in a hundred years. The dasnak have betraid him, selling him to the Turks, you're saying that Andranik was not a great politician I say xxxx politics they needed to train a army form a allaince with Europe and xxxx the turks from evrey side not work with our enemies. Dashankner have done great things but they've also maid great mistakes like when the young turks came in power, Andranik warned the dasnaks about them but they ddin't listen.

Enker, I know you are young. All I can tell you is do the research yourself. Read Chalabian's biography about Andranik and Dro. Read various serious publications about the ARF. Better yet, see if you can befriend a serious ARF member. See if you can research the geopolitical climate of the Caucasus during the First World War and thereafter. Look into the role the ARF has played in the Armenian Diaspora. Look up operation Nemesis. Look up the Justice Commandos. Look into the role the ANC plays in Washington, in Artsakh, in Javakhq. And then compare what you have learned about the ARF to anything else in existence in the Armenian Diaspora.

Contemplate it all and then we'll discuss this topic further.

But whatever you do, just don't listen to all the Bolshevik era derived crap about the ARF being spewed to this day by Cold War relics. Just look it up yourself.

[Armenian]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

General Andranik and the Armenian revolutionary movement, Andranig Chalabian.

Yes, an excellent work by Chalabian about Andranik. He recently wrote another great biography about Drastamat "Dro" Kanayan as well.

I have read posts of Armenian for a long time now and personally i think he is the best poster Armenia has ever had

Sorry but on this one i can't agree with you enker Armenian: "When the geopolitical climate in the Caucasus got unbearable General Andranik, unlike Dro and Garegin, abandoned the Armenian nation"

I knew all hell would break loose once I made that comment.

However, no matter how one looks at it, it's accurate. When things got geopolitically unbearable for Andranik he left for California. Simple as that. No one told him to retire in Fresno, he decided to do that all by himself. In contrast, individuals like Garegin and Dro continued the armed struggle within and around the region in question. Even after they "wisely" and reluctantly handed over the Republic to the Bolsheviks, they moved their operations first to Iran and then elsewhere. In short, they struggled for the Armenian nation to the very end of their lives. Dro and Garegin were exceptionally unique in this regard.

Without doubt, Andranik was one of our bravest wartime leaders. His military contribution to the Armenian nation remains sacred. However, he was not a politician nor a diplomat. For example, when the Armenian nation was newly formed, when the nation could barely survive, Andranik was under the impression that with several thousand volunteers he could free Western Armenian. There is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. When the ARF leadership was forced to sacrifice Gars and Ardahan for the protection of the Armenian Republic because they simply did not have the military resources nor the international backing to defend them, Andranik with several hundreds volunteers were attempting to wage a liberation war inside Western Armenia. What Andranik at the time was doing, despite its braveness, was politically/strategically foolish. He had a mind of his own, and that is never a wise thing to do in the world of real politics.

Great combat leaders have seldom proven to be good political leaders.

We find a similar situations with individuals like Jirayr Sefilian. He was a courageous war time leader, but his relative wartime fame got to his head in peace time. Unlike geniuses here who like to bring him up every time the ARF comes up in discussion, I happen to know ARF members who are relatively close to Jirayr and his legal defense team. Even they admit that Jirayr may have crossed the line. He and his group were essentially boasting about assassinating the Armenian leadership simply based on vicious rumors and hearsay. Stupid rumors such as the crap about Kocharyan selling Artsakh to the Azeris for 9 billions US dollars. What they did cannot be allowed in our nation, no armed gangs regardless of how well meaning can be allowed free reign. Armenia is not Afghanistan nor is it Zimbabwe.

And yes, there can only be one armed gang, one mafia - the central authorities. This is the case in much of the civilized world, not the least of which is the USA.

General Andranik has dedicated his life fighting for Armenia, if he wasn't alive in those times many more Armenians had fallen to the hands of the turks. Maybe he was a bad politician, maybe he should listen more often to the "real politicians" but saying general Andranik abandoned the Armenian nation is not correct.

What we are discussing is not meant to take anything away from his wartime record, which is impeccable. However, at times he was a loose canon. And he did essentially abandon Armenia when he gave up his armed struggle and moved to California and got married to a very young pretty chick? Was he forced to retire in sunny Cali? Was he too old? Well, I guess it's all a mater of perspective. However, as legendary as his wartime deeds were, the final chapter of his life was not fitting his persona.

The ARF is supposed to serve the nation but it's not the nation, therefore abondoning the ARF does not mean that one is also abondoning the Armenian nation.

This debate is not about blindly defending the ARF. I'm very critical of the party when I'm discussing such topics with well informed, objective and not obsessed individuals. However, at the same time, I admire what the party has accomplished during its 100+ years existence. I admire what it has done and continues to do in Artsakh. I admire what it is doing in Javakhq. I admire what it has done and continues to do in Lebanon and in various other diasporan communities. In short, I admire the party's history, versatility and longevity.

I'll gladly engage in critical discussion, but I will simply won't allow weirdos to unjustifiably insult, attack and slander a national institution that has sacrificed so much in the name of the Fatherland.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Yeah, I'm sure you would have preferred death for the Armenian nation. Correct?

The ARF slogan "death or freedom" applies to the martiks, not the nation. Enough Martiks died at the hands of Turks and Bolsheviks to prove their slogan accurate.

However, no matter how one looks at it, it's accurate. When things got geopolitically unbearable, Dashnaks, spearheaded by Dro, signed an agreement of Armenia's handover to Bolshevik Empire after which all Armenian officers were murdered and Dro left abroad safe and sound. Simple as that. No one told him to leave, he decided to do that all by himself.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Without doubt, Andranik was one of our bravest wartime leaders. His military contribution to the Armenian nation remains sacred. However, he was not a politician nor a diplomat.

What does that mean he was not a politician? Can you please clarify what that means?

Even after the serious political errors that the ARF has allowed and its naieve and short-seighted policies, and even after it became clear that Andranik was right all along, you say that "he was not a politician"? what does that mean?

if being a politician, as the ARF supposedly is, means making mistakes that cost the nation to suffer, then I'd much rather have a warrior like andranik in charge, thank you.