Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

[Armenian]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

What does that mean he was not a politician? Can you please clarify what that means?

OK, let me put it this way so you can understand.

Had I been responsible for the newly created Armenian Republic at a time when the tiny landlocked friendless nation was in utter ruin with less then a million inhabitants half of whom were recent half-starved disease ridden refugees from our western lands; Had I been faced with serious political dangers on all sides; Had I faced war against Georians, Azeris, Turks and Bolsheviks; Had I inherited a nation without natural resources; Had I inherited a nation without resources in men and armaments; Had I inherited a nation without a single penny in the national treasury; Had I inherited a nation that did not have a single protector; And on top of it all, had I had this foolhardy general running around in our Turk occupied western lands battling Turks thereby inviting armed reprisals against Armenia by Turks - I would have personally ordered the execution of the general in question regardless of who and what he was.

Are you this foolish, or have you been watching too many Rambo films? Do anyone of you armchair generals here really understand what it is that you are debating? The fact remains, the Armenian nation was created in 1918 solely thanks to the ARF. The Armenian nation was handed over to the Bolshevik in 1921, as a lesser of the two evils, solely thanks to the ARF. What some of you obsessed ones need to realize is that before talking about those incredibly difficult times the ARF had to face all by themselves - you first need to understand that time period in question.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

I would have personally ordered the execution of the general in question regardless of who and what he was.

there you have it folks. Need i say more?

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

The fact remains, the Armenian nation was created in 1918 solely thanks to the ARF.

The Armenian "Republic" of 1918 was created by the Turks. This so called "independence" was forced upon the Armenians by the Turks. May 28 is a total Sham.

The creation of the little Armenian republic was a smart cover-up for the enormous crimes committed by the Turkish government.

In Talaat Pasha's words, the rationale for Turkey's plan to create a small Armenia on a temporary basis was: “ By creating a small Armenia we will present ourselves to the international peace conference [after the war] as having solves the Armenian Question, and therefore not be regarded as war criminals and perpetrators of the Armenian massacres.”

Andranik knew that the existence of an independent Armenian state on the eastern border of their country could further their immediate political program, but it would not be in their long term national interests. He was certain that the Turks had some hidden agenda that, when uncovered, would explain why they granted “independence” to their age old enemies.

If the peace conference after the war went well for them and nobody asked questions about the Armenian Genocide or tried the Turks as war criminals, then they could wipe Little Armenia out as a state anytime they chose to. THEY TRIED TO DO JUST THAT IN THE FALL OF 1920.

[AR MENIA]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

However, no matter how one looks at it, it's accurate. When things got geopolitically unbearable for Andranik he left for California. Simple as that. No one told him to retire in Fresno, he decided to do that all by himself. In contrast, individuals like Garegin and Dro continued the armed struggle within and around the region in question. Even after they "wisely" and reluctantly handed over the Republic to the Bolsheviks, they moved their operations first to Iran and then elsewhere. In short, they struggled for the Armenian nation to the very end of their lives. Dro and Garegin were exceptionally unique in this regard.

When reading about general Andranik i don't get the impression the general was a quitter, nor do i get the impression he was stupid or dumb.
I don't think the general had given up upon Armenia and it's people.
Like Artsakh stated:

The republic of Armenia of 1918, under Dashnak control, signed the following agreement with the Turks:

"The republic of Armenia promises to help the Turks to fight against General Andranik."

Enker Armenian, imagine what went through the general when he noticed the above?
The general had risked his life and dedicated all he got for them, Armenia and it's people, then suddenly they want to hand him over too the enemy after all he had done for the country, that aint correct and nobody can justify what the ARF wanted to do regarding the general, i don't want to say it but it's called treason.

Maybe the general felt he was pushed into a corner by the enemy but also by the ARF.
Also take into account the general was getting sick and older, almost nobody understood him and his actions even tho he thought it was the right thing to do.

All these factors combined plus many more that were on his mind pushed the general into a corner where the best solution was to do something else then he was doing currently, or else the turks could get him, we all know what would have happend in such a scenario.

Without doubt, Andranik was one of our bravest wartime leaders. His military contribution to the Armenian nation remains sacred. However, he was not a politician nor a diplomat. For example, when the Armenian nation was newly formed, when the nation could barely survive, Andranik was under the impression that with several thousand volunteers he could free Western Armenian. There is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. When the ARF leadership was forced to sacrifice Gars and Ardahan for the protection of the Armenian Republic because they simply did not have the military resources nor the international backing to defend them, Andranik with several hundreds volunteers were attempting to wage a liberation war inside Western Armenia. What Andranik at the time was doing, despite its braveness, was politically/strategically foolish. He had a mind of his own, and that is never a wise thing to do in the world of real politics.

One of the best we ever had!
Chalabian mentioned in his book that the turks were having heavy casualties too and the morale of the turkish army was very low, Andranik knew this and wanted to take advantage of it, as you mentioned enker the general was under the impression that he could defeat the turks, afterall he was the general and had dedicated his life to the struggle, like i mentioned before he could not be stupid or dumb so i think he knew what he was talking about.

We find a similar situations with individuals like Jirayr Sefilian. He was a courageous war time leader, but his relative wartime fame got to his head in peace time. Unlike geniuses here who like to bring him up every time the ARF comes up in discussion, I happen to know ARF members who are relatively close to Jirayr and his legal defense team. Even they admit that Jirayr may have crossed the line. He and his group were essentially boasting about assassinating the Armenian leadership simply based on vicious rumors and hearsay. Stupid rumors such as the crap about Kocharyan selling Artsakh to the Azeris for 9 billions US dollars. What they did cannot be allowed in our nation, no armed gangs regardless of how well meaning can be allowed free reign. Armenia is not Afghanistan nor is it Zimbabwe.

And yes, there can only be one armed gang, one mafia - the central authorities. This is the case in much of the civilized world, not the least of which is the USA.

I totally agree with you, Armenia aint Afrika, and it proved that by doing what it did

This debate is not about blindly defending the ARF. I'm very critical of the party when I'm discussing such topics with well informed, objective and not obsessed individuals. However, at the same time, I admire what the party has accomplished during its 100+ years existence. I admire what it has done and continues to do in Artsakh. I admire what it is doing in Javakhq. I admire what it has done and continues to do in Lebanon and in various other diasporan communities. In short, I admire the party's history, versatility and longevity.

I'll gladly engage in critical discussion, but I will simply won't allow weirdos to unjustifiably insult, attack and slander a national institution that has sacrificed so much in the name of the Fatherland

My dad and uncle's are also Dashnakhakans, some in my family are actually on top of the organization in the country that i live in currently.
I agree with Armenian, it has done so much for our country, the party sacrified allot.
But it seems that the ARF of today isn't the ARF of 100 years ago.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Armenian can you bring me into contact with a few members of the party, where I live there aren't any Dashnakner. It would be great if you can help me

[Armenian]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Armenian can you bring me into contact with a few members of the party, where I live there aren't any Dashnakner. It would be great if you can help me

Where do you live?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

I live in Belgium

[Armenian]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

When reading about general Andranik i don't get the impression the general was a quitter, nor do i get the impression he was stupid or dumb. I don't think the general had given up upon Armenia and it's people.

Enker, its easy to criticize in hindsight. Just put yourself into the shoes of those in charge of protecting the last remnants of the Armenian nation in 1918. Seriously consider the geopolitical and socioeconomic condition under which the Armenian Republic came into being. Andranik was a legendary warrior, but you can't excuse his recklessness. Just think of what you and others here are stating - namely that Andranik was right in thinking that several thousand volunteers could defeat the Turkish state. Don't you see the absurdity in this line of reasoning? Its wishful thinking to the extreme, to the point that individuals like Andranik even risk the destruction of the rest of the Armenian nation by continuing the hopeless war.

Armenia had no economy, no manpower, no supplies, no funds, no international help, Armenia had NOTHING to wage war with at the time. Just because a great warrior thinks he can defeat a massive foe does not make it true.

American generals Patton and Macarthur thought they could defeat the Soviet Union at the end of the Second World War. Well, the same thing happened to them that happened to Andranik. Were Macarthur and Patton stupid? As a matter of fact, the USA at the time was infinitely stronger than Armenia was. Although, in my opinion, it was nearly impossible to defeat the Soviet Union militarily, at the very least what Patton and Macarthur wanted was not as far fetched as what Andranik wanted. Yet, the American generals in question got axed for their dangerous beliefs.

Do any one of you here seriously think that Armenia at the time could defeat the Turkish state and the Bolshevik? I really think there is a lack of understanding, logic and maturity in these discussions.

The general had risked his life and dedicated all he got for them, Armenia and it's people, then suddenly they want to hand him over too the enemy after all he had done for the country, that aint correct and nobody can justify what the ARF wanted to do regarding the general, i don't want to say it but it's called treason.

Those were ugly times in every sense of the word. And the party made many mistakes. What Andranik did could also be translated as treason, for in the eyes of the politicians in Yerevan he was jeopardizing what had remained of the Armenian nation.

Chalabian mentioned in his book that the turks were having heavy casualties too and the morale of the turkish army was very low, Andranik knew this and wanted to take advantage of it, as you mentioned enker the general was under the impression that he could defeat the turks, after all he was the general and had dedicated his life to the struggle, like i mentioned before he could not be stupid or dumb so i think he knew what he was talking about.

It's all hindsight conjecture, enker. Again, just put yourself in the place of those who were trying to save the last remnants of the Armenian nation while a stubborn warrior was out attracting armed reprisals from Turks (and potentially Bolsheviks) at a time when Armenia was at its lowest point and Turkish nationalism and Bolshevism were emerging.

Again, study the geopolitical climate in the Caucasus and the desperate condition in which the Armenian Republic was in at the time. It's all nice and manly to think Andranik could do this or that. Well, you say - He thought he could so he must have been right. Yeah sure, Andranik could wipe out the Turkish presence from within Anatolia with several thousand men without reserves, without war supplies, without funds, without international support. And I'm sure he would have later turned his attention on the Bolsheviks and destroy them as well. Yeah, it is fun to fantasize. The hard reality, however, was no one in our nation at the time could defeat the Turks and the Bolsheviks. Thus, Andranik's warrior adventures were risking our nation total destruction.

What if we blindly followed him and he turned out to be wrong. Would you be willing to lament the total destruction of the Armenian nation? Yes, the ARF may have sacrificed a legendary military figure, but the party did so to preserve what it had salvaged of the Armenian nation. At the very least, that is what the party thought at the time.

I agree with Armenian, it has done so much for our country, the party sacrified allot. But it seems that the ARF of today isn't the ARF of 100 years ago.

Again, this is not about blindly defending the ARF. The ARF was in power during the most difficult time period in the entire history of the Armenian nation. The party made many mistakes, the party had many successes. The party became the catalyst for many great individuals to step forward and serve the Armenian nation, not the lest of which were Andranik, Garegin and Dro. What the party accomplished in this 100 + years history is legendary.

I just can't stand idiots who gather in a circle jerk and spew crap about the ARF being out to destroy the Armenian nation. It's just so damn stupid. As if top level ARF members gather in secret places in the dead of night just to plot the destruction of the Armenian nation.

It's just stupid, bordering on insane.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Enker, its easy to criticize in hindsight. Just put yourself into the shoes of those in charge of protecting the last remnants of the Armenian nation in 1918. Seriously consider the geopolitical and socioeconomic condition under which the Armenian Republic came into being. Andranik was a legendary warrior, but you can't excuse his recklessness. Just think of what you and others here are stating - namely that Andranik was right in thinking that several thousand volunteers could defeat the Turkish state. Don't you see the absurdity in this line of reasoning? Its wishful thinking to the extreme, to the point that individuals like Andranik even risk the destruction of the rest of the Armenian nation by continuing the hopeless war.

Armenia had no economy, no manpower, no supplies, no funds, no international help, Armenia had NOTHING to wage war with at the time. Just because a great warrior thinks he can defeat a massive foe does not make it true.

American generals Patton and Macarthur thought they could defeat the Soviet Union at the end of the Second World War. Well, the same thing happened to them that happened to Andranik. Were Macarthur and Patton stupid? As a matter of fact, the USA at the time was infinitely stronger than Armenia was. Although, in my opinion, it was nearly impossible to defeat the Soviet Union militarily, at the very least what Patton and Macarthur wanted was not as far fetched as what Andranik wanted. Yet, the American generals in question got axed for their dangerous beliefs.

Do any one of you here seriously think that Armenia at the time could defeat the Turkish state and the Bolshevik? I really think there is a lack of understanding, logic and maturity in these discussions.



Those were ugly times in every sense of the word. And the party made many mistakes. What Andranik did could also be translated as treason, for in the eyes of the politicians in Yerevan he was jeopardizing what had remained of the Armenian nation.

Where do you come up with this crap, honestly? Do you sit in your chair all day and right fictional fairly tales? How far will you go to justify the actions of that disgraced "Armenian" revolutionary federation? You are Blind. You are too close to see the truth.

Instead of making up fairly tales, why don't you go open up Andranik Chelebians book, and Hrachik Simonyans book, and start reading. It's all there-in black and white.

[Artsakh]

Re: Dashnaktsutyun - Armenian Revolutionary Federation

Enker, its easy to criticize in hindsight. Just put yourself into the shoes of those in charge of protecting the last remnants of the Armenian nation in 1918. Seriously consider the geopolitical and socioeconomic condition under which the Armenian Republic came into being. Andranik was a legendary warrior, but you can't excuse his recklessness. Just think of what you and others here are stating - namely that Andranik was right in thinking that several thousand volunteers could defeat the Turkish state. Don't you see the absurdity in this line of reasoning? Its wishful thinking to the extreme, to the point that individuals like Andranik even risk the destruction of the rest of the Armenian nation by continuing the hopeless war.

Armenia had no economy, no manpower, no supplies, no funds, no international help, Armenia had NOTHING to wage war with at the time. Just because a great warrior thinks he can defeat a massive foe does not make it true.

ANTRANIG VERSUS THE ARF LEADERSHIP

Rejecting the ARF political trajectory Antranig, across the years,
acted as something of a consistent opposition, sometimes internal,
sometimes external. `The Movement' summarised the essence of his stand
when it reported him arguing for `removing the reigns of leadership
from the (ARF) Bureau officials, from amateurs' and `passing them to
the military revolutionary forces' `working in the Homeland.' (p305)
On a first encounter the detail of Antranig's politics seem to be
marked by a narrow nationalism and militarism that compared poorly
with an apparently more sophisticated political, democratic and
internationalist ARF leadership. But for all the ambiguities of his
formulations in his practical politics Antranig proved to be the more
acute judge.

Antranig's political views were not born of any theoretical or
ideological considerations. Opposing the Young Turks he simply made
what was a correct practical assessment that they were not genuinely
committed to the emancipation of nations oppressed by the Ottoman
Empire. He may not have argued a sophisticated intellectual case but
in contrast to the ARF his experience in the Homeland enabled him to
discern the utterly reactionary character of the Young Turks. So he
rightly turned down offers of a seat in the new Ottoman `parliament'.
`Go ahead and enjoy their company' he told the ARF leadership. `But be
careful of these new comrades of yours'. In `the not too distant
future they will have your heads and those of the people too... A vast
trap is being laid, be careful.' (p321-322) The ARF leadership, whose
politics expressed tragic delusions of the Diaspora intelligentsia did
not heed such sound advice. [2]

The same practical concerns animated Antranig's stand against the
ARF's decision to join ranks with Russian socialists against the
Tsarist state. Opening this new battlefront was in his view an unwise
extension of severely limited Armenian power. Armenians under the
Tsarist yoke were indeed oppressed. But under the Ottoman yoke they
were threatened with imminent extinction. So Antranig urged the
concentration of all resources and effort on the national struggle in
the heart of Armenia ` the western Armenian provinces occupied by the
Ottoman Empire.

Antranig's opposition to the ARF's brand of socialist ideology flowed
primarily from such practical concerns. As this ideology accompanied
the growing intimacy with the Young Turks and the ARF entry into the
anti-Tsarist struggle Antranig condemned ARF socialism as an `alien
path'. In this socialism he saw little more than radical rhetoric that
disguised the `betrayal of national ideals' (p260-261). However
neither his opposition to the ARF-Young Turk accord nor his hostility
to ARF socialism made him a national chauvinist or a friend of the
elite.

Antranig's uncompromising nationalism was prompted only by concern for
the downtrodden. He hated Ottoman tyranny because `executing its work
systematically' it subjects the common people to `artificial famine,
forced emigration... endless and unbearable taxes... plunder,
kidnapping and other such miseries.' (p274) In their attitude to
non-Armenians Antranig and the guerrillas were `honourable and just to
all, irrespective of nationality.' It was not unusual, writes Simonian
`for Kurdish and Turkish working people to turn to the guerrillas' to
right wrongs done them by their own elites. (p92)

The final ideological and political, if not organisational rupture
between Antranig and the ARF crystallized during the ARF's Fourth
General Congress held in Vienna in 1907. Though at the time not
resident in Armenia, he attended as the representative for the
guerrilla movement substituting for Gevorg Chavoush. Urging Antranig
to remain firm, a letter from Chavoush gave vent to guerrilla
bitterness against the exiled leadership for its failure to send
`money or armaments' to Mush and Sassoon. This had `thereby caused the
people to curse' the leadership. (p288) At the Congress besides
reiterating his broad positions Antranig laid enormous stress on
questions of armed organisation and weapon procurements calling for
immediate measures to prepare for national insurrection. Among other
reasons he referred to the emigration that was `draining the land of
up to 50,000 people a year' and so undermining the foundations of the
Armenian nation. What in normal circumstances would `take four years
to do we have to do in one' he argued. (p295-300)

But the 1907 ARF Congress marked the isolation of the guerrilla
leadership and final victory of the Diaspora intelligentsia. The
treatment meted out to Antranig highlighted their polarisation. As
representative of the guerrillas he was sidelined. Throughout
Simonian's account one gets a whiff of the leadership's patronising
haughtiness suggesting that Antranig was incapable of appreciating the
finer points of politics. Antranig may not have received a European
university education, but he possessed a brilliant mind. For all his
political shortcomings he was astute enough to anticipate the Young
Turk trap. But he proved unable to organise a political opposition
that would prevent the ARF leadership walking into that trap.

In 1911 the ARF did eventually accept that its alliance with the Young
Turks had proved to be an error and so moved to terminate it. But
instead of developing an independent, self-reliant policy that
combined Antranig's and Hrair's revolutionary vision, the ARF turned
again to treacherous Europe and nefarious Russia that had so cynically
and so systematically used and betrayed the Armenian people.