Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

[diaukhi]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

Be more specific. You can't argue/make a point by referring me to someone else. Make your point and use the reference to back your claim. I'll 'read kuryon' if I feel the need to check the source of your claim.

We're not talking about that script and we all already know Georgians use it today.

mashtoc didn't know georgian it's fact and if you don't beleave, read kuryon. kuryon wrote that when mashtoc came to iberia by that time king of iberia was bakuri and interestin thing is that when mastoc came to iberia king was pharsman and not bakur.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

read kuryon

Be more specific. You can't argue/make a point by referring me to someone else. Make your point and use the reference to back your claim. I'll 'read kuryon' if I feel the need to check the source of your claim.

We're not talking about that script and we all already know Georgians use it today.

[diaukhi]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

today we use alphabet - mkhedruli, which created in XI century

[diaukhi]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

Where is your evidence that Mashtots did not speak Georgian?

read kuryon

[SevSpitak]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

well mashtoc didn't know georgian and if you don't know language you can't creat alphabet for foreing language it' very logical, but you armenians have Incredible logic maybe mashtoc realy was in iberia but he didn't creat georgian alphabet, he saw georgian alphabet and then creat armenian alphabet it's more logical than he created alphabet for foreing language which he did't know.

Where is your evidence that Mashtots did not speak Georgian?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

well mashtoc didn't know georgian and if you don't know language you can't creat alphabet for foreing language it' very logical, but you armenians have Incredible logic maybe mashtoc realy was in iberia but he didn't creat georgian alphabet, he saw georgian alphabet and then creat armenian alphabet it's more logical than he created alphabet for foreing language which he did't know.

Now can you provide sources or historians that support your opinion? Because all the data delivered here points to the opposite.

[diaukhi]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

well mashtoc didn't know georgian and if you don't know language you can't creat alphabet for foreing language it' very logical, but you armenians have Incredible logic maybe mashtoc realy was in iberia but he didn't creat georgian alphabet, he saw georgian alphabet and then creat armenian alphabet it's more logical than he created alphabet for foreing language which he did't know.

[CrisHartsock]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

There are bound to be some striking similarities in Alphabets of the region. Especially considering the descent of alphabets from early paleolithic pictograms. There was, at some unknown point in the past, a common indo-european language. What Mesrob Mashdots did was travel and reasearch what written languages (pictographic in style) were in use at the time by Armenian peoples. He then created the first Armenian Alphabet that would be fairly recognizable and hence much easier to learn by all Armenian people. Look at Abril Books...they have a chart that describes the documented history of this progression. Not suprisingly it seems that paleolithic and neolithic pictograms on the plains of Ararat are a bit older than those commonly found in Europe. It seems to me that we need to be giving credit for settling and creating the first societies to those early Armenians instead of to the Sumerians.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Similarities between Georgian and Armenian alphabets

Here is an interesting chart I found on a Georgian grammar website, www.armazi.com/georgian. If you look at Columns B and C (Asomtavruli and Nuskhuri versions of the alphabet), you will see that a lot of the letters, while not matching Armenian sounds, are either identical or nearly identical to the Armenian alphabet.

Especially of note are #5 (ղ), 13 (ծ,ժ), 14 (հ), 16 (ա), 18 (վ), 20 (ն), 22 (վ), 25 (փ), 28 (ց), 29 (ի), 30 (ը), 32 (պ), 37 (տ) and 38 (ծ,ժ). There are just too many "coincidences" for there not to be any link between the Georgian and Armenian alphabets.

There's more. The #16 ա letter is equivalent to our "ո" (o). And the letter #22 վ is equivalent to our "ւ" (small v, usually transcribed "w"). Check what comes right after (#23). ավ = "ու" = "oo"/"u". And like mentioned earlier, the sounds match Armenian sounds as well. Notice how "F" is also missing in their alphabet? (We added F/Ֆ centuries later due to our contact with the French & Crusaders).

[Federate]

Re: Similarities between Armenian and Georgian alphabets

List of academic sources that acknowledge Armenian Mesrop Mashdots was the creator of the Georgian alphabet.

1. Lenore A. Grenoble. Language policy in the Soviet Union. Springer, 2003. ISBN 1402012985. P. 116. "The creation of the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop, who is also credited with the creation of the Armenian alphabet."

2. Donald Rayfield "The Literature of Georgia: A History (Caucasus World). RoutledgeCurzon. ISBN 0700711635. P. 19. "The Georgian alphabet seems unlikely to have a pre-Christian origin, for the major archaeological monument of the first century 4IX the bilingual Armazi gravestone commemorating Serafua, daughter of the Georgian viceroy of Mtskheta, is inscribed in Greek and Aramaic only. It has been believed, and not only in Armenia, that all the Caucasian alphabets — Armenian, Georgian and Caucaso-Albanian — were invented in the fourth century by the Armenian scholar Mesrop Mashtots.<...> The Georgian chronicles The Life of Kanli - assert that a Georgian script was invented two centuries before Christ, an assertion unsupported by archaeology. There is a possibility that the Georgians, like many minor nations of the area, wrote in a foreign language — Persian, Aramaic, or Greek — and translated back as they read."

3. Catholic Encyclopedia. Mesrob. "But his activity was not confined to Eastern Armenia. Provided with letters from Isaac he went to Constantinople and obtained from the Emperor Theodosius the Younger permission to preach and teach in his Armenian possessions. He evangelized successively the Georgians, Albanians, and Aghouanghks, adapting his alphabet to their languages, and, wherever he preached the Gospel, he built schools and appointed teachers and priests to continue his work. Having returned to Eastern Armenia to report on his missions to the patriarch, his first thought was to provide a religious literature for his countrymen."

4. Britannica. Alphabet. "The Aramaic alphabet was probably also the prototype of the Brāhmī script of India, a script that became the parent of nearly all Indian writings. Derived from the Aramaic alphabet, it came into being in northwest India. The Armenian and Georgian alphabets, created by St. Mesrob (Mashtots) in the early 5th century ad, were also based on the Aramaic alphabet."

5. Glen Warren Bowersock, Peter Robert Lamont Brown, Oleg Grabar. Late antiquity: a guide to the postclassical world. Harvard University Press, 1999. ISBN 0674511735. P. 289. James R. Russell. Alphabets. " Mastoc' was a charismatic visionary who accomplished his task at a time when Armenia stood in danger of losing both its national identity, through partition, and its newly acquired Christian faith, through Sassanian pressure and reversion to paganism. By preaching in Armenian, he was able to undermine and co-opt the discourse founded in native tradition, and to create a counterweight against both Byzantine and Syriac cultural hegemony in the church. Mastoc' also created the Georgian and Caucasian-Albanian alphabets, based on the Armenian model."

6. George L. Campbell. Compendium of the World’s Languages. — Routledge; New edition edition (May 14, 1998) — ISBN 0415160499. P. 183. "Old Georgian was written in the xucuri character, traditionally invented by Mesrop Mashtots, to whom the Armenians owe their script. In the eleventh century the ecclesiastical xucuri was replaced by the character known as the mxedruli 'civil', which is in use today. Georgian is the only Caucasian language to have developed its own script."

7. Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of Literature. Merriam-Webster, 1995. ISBN 0877790426. P. 756. "Mesrob". "A collection of biblical commentaries, translations of patristic works, and liturgical prayers and hymns is credited to Mesrob, corroborating his reputation for having laid the foundation of a national Armenian liturgy. He is also credited with contributing to the origin of the Georgian alphabet."

8. Russian: «История Востока», ЗАКАВКАЗЬЕ В IV—XI вв — Институт Востоковедения РАН. "Христианизация закавказских стран имела важные последствия и для развития местной культуры. На рубеже IV-V вв. появилась армянская письменность, созданная Месропом Маштоцем. Не без его помощи были изобретены и национальные алфавиты в Грузии и Албании. "

9. Peter R. Ackroyd, C. F. Evans, Geoffrey William Hugo Lampe, Stanley Lawrence Greenslade. The Cambridge History of the Bible: From the Beginnings to Jerome — Cambridge University Press, 1975 — ISBN 0521099730. P. 367. "Georgia was converted during the fourth century, tradition has it by the agency of an Armenian slave woman, and whether these details are in any measure true or not, the tradition probably indicates the source of the Georgians' knowledge of Christianity and the Christian scriptures. These did not begin to be translated into Georgian until Mesrop, provider of an Armenian alphabet, also supplied the Georgians with an adequate means of transcription for their speech."