Disturbing question on Artsakh

[hrai]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

Turks are clean people, they will never have intercourse
with hairy, big-nosed apes. He was probably hired by hairy big-nosed apes to spread some new propaganda.

So you must be pretty well celibate then.

[hrai]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

you should watch your tongue, that was racist and you can be glad I don't moderate because I would have slapped you with the ban glove long ago, that goes for any racist

Pedro, you're a racist, I'm a racist. Everyone's a racist to varying degrees. It goes all the way back to pre-history and the survival of family/tribal groups.

Today it's non-PC to be racist, rightly so to it's extreme, where racism leads to murder, genocide, displacement etc.

Please don't deny your racism, you've posted enough about WASPs for anyone to see it. It's not a bad thing, provided it's controlled.

No amount of contrition,recognition and restitution can ever remove my inherent despisal of turcs/tatars. Does that mean I attack turcs in the street?
Of course not. Does your racism mean you attack WASPs in the street? I hope not.

[jgk3]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

From Thomas De Waal's book:

"For seventy years there was almost no instance of mass violence between Armenians and Azerbaijanis. They lived side by side, traded with each other and intermarried."

This guy is saying implicitly that Artsakh's Armenians are basically central Asian seljuks.
I know that [unfortunately] some sick Armenians did marry them and it's a fact that those sick people now live in the Netherlands, France, Germany etc because they were not accepted in either country. I want statistics because Europeans do intermarry with seljuks in great numbers. If you ever visit Europe you'll know what I'm talking about, the Germans, French, English marry turks, blacks, arabs etc in huge numbers. And this guy has the nerve to tell us we are seljuks?

Anyway I'd like some more info from experts here.

What are you so worried about? Yes, some Armenians intermarried with them, and they just aren't going to be the force that is capable of fighting on either side of the war. Artsakh is a land for those who will not accept Azeris trying to gain control over our people, and this includes via blood relations, so I'm glad to hear that those who did intermarry left the country so that they can go intermarry with other races too and soon pass out of the Armenian line forever.

Are you that faithless in our tradition and spirit that you get scared at every instance of an Armenian who does not live up to them? At every instance of an Armenian who goes and marries a Turk? There are some Armenians who believe in humanistic ideas about how we should all sit down and love eachother regardless of race, and follow the path of romance. This idea is pursued by members from any race, it is to be expected. It's just that these individuals will not be able to partake in our warfare, and their relations with us must be treated accordingly with this fact.

I would however like to say that when we get back Western Armenia, rebuild our churches and what not... it is to be expected that we will get some converts from the Muslim side. Afterall, God gives them every right to convert to Christianity and join our Armenian Apostolic Church. This occurred in the Greek Orthodox Church to a great extend, whereby the initially Muslim converts had to go on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land (Jerusalem), a pilgrimage called "khatzi" by the Greeks, and after their conversion, their patronymic bore the this word as a prefix, so you'd get names like Hatzistamatiou, Hatzimarkou, etc... for son of Stamatiou, or Markou. This lead to an important social distinction for these new members of Greek religious society, and Armenians can definitely do well to use a similar device for future Muslim converts. However, after enough generations, the force of this distinction can fade as this individual has intermarried more and more with the general Greek Orthodox population, resulting that the "Hatzi" stem in their name is just a surviving relic of a father of a father of a father of a father who happened to be a convert.

The main difficulty I see for Armenians in doing such a thing is the size of our race, a meager 3 million in the Caucasus. When the Greeks used this device for conversions, they were strong and well established as a cultural and imperial Byzantine force. Perhaps for them, it was both an affordable measure, and also a necessary one for extending their cultural influence to the peoples they dominated. For Armenians, I foresee that we would need to incorporate these measures to degrees relative to how much we will be able to chew without changing our own general racial characteristics. I guess admittance to our church would require a large measure of commitment and show of devoutness by the convert. A traditional pilgrimage to the Holy Land seems to show great enough commitment to me that they aren't just doing it for economic or common social reasons.

What do you guys think?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

I think I like the way you think, however.... I don't think the majority of the diaspora thinks like this.....

"There are some Armenians who believe in humanistic ideas about how we should all sit down and love eachother regardless of race, and follow the path of romance."

Thats probably more of how they think... while they sit down and watch more hollywood propaganda.

[jgk3]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

I'm aware of that Andre, and that is why I value the choices of Armenians who are oriented to their cultural tradition and civilization much more than I value those oriented towards Hollywood and other modern age pro-assimilation drivel.

[hrai]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

Are you that faithless in our tradition and spirit that you get scared at every instance of an Armenian who does not live up to them? At every instance of an Armenian who goes and marries a Turk? There are some Armenians who believe in humanistic ideas about how we should all sit down and love eachother regardless of race, and follow the path of romance. This idea is pursued by members from any race, it is to be expected. It's just that these individuals will not be able to partake in our warfare, and their relations with us must be treated accordingly with this fact.

I agree nearly totally with your post jgk, nearly.

This situation where Armenians marry foreigners is not ideal but it's a fact of life. My personal view is that both parents being Armenian is the sought after ideal however, where there is only one parent Armenian, we have to have an even greater faith in our traditions and spirit for the children of these marriages to be Armenian, not Armenian-Whatsitnationality.
I have friends who are married to Greek & Ukrainian wives and their children, when asked, always proclaim their Armenianness, all three children speak Armenian, were baptised in Apostolic Church and I see no reason why they should be considered as any less Armenian than any other.
As a nation we cannot afford to "cast aside" half-Armenians any less than we can afford the danger of assimilation.
Therefore we need to give even greater support than usual to family & friends who marry outside of Haik's children.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

I agree nearly totally with your post jgk, nearly.

This situation where Armenians marry foreigners is not ideal but it's a fact of life. My personal view is that both parents being Armenian is the sought after ideal however, where there is only one parent Armenian, we have to have an even greater faith in our traditions and spirit for the children of these marriages to be Armenian, not Armenian-Whatsitnationality.
I have friends who are married to Greek & Ukrainian wives and their children, when asked, always proclaim their Armenianness, all three children speak Armenian, were baptised in Apostolic Church and I see no reason why they should be considered as any less Armenian than any other.
As a nation we cannot afford to "cast aside" half-Armenians any less than we can afford the danger of assimilation.
Therefore we need to give even greater support than usual to family & friends who marry outside of Haik's children.

I agree, we have to make sure that 1/2 is more likely to become 3/4 in the future than 1/4.

[merhayrenik]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

What are you so worried about? Yes, some Armenians intermarried with them, and they just aren't going to be the force that is capable of fighting on either side of the war. Artsakh is a land for those who will not accept Azeris trying to gain control over our people, and this includes via blood relations, so I'm glad to hear that those who did intermarry left the country so that they can go intermarry with other races too and soon pass out of the Armenian line forever.

Are you that faithless in our tradition and spirit that you get scared at every instance of an Armenian who does not live up to them? At every instance of an Armenian who goes and marries a Turk? There are some Armenians who believe in humanistic ideas about how we should all sit down and love eachother regardless of race, and follow the path of romance. This idea is pursued by members from any race, it is to be expected. It's just that these individuals will not be able to partake in our warfare, and their relations with us must be treated accordingly with this fact.

I would however like to say that when we get back Western Armenia, rebuild our churches and what not... it is to be expected that we will get some converts from the Muslim side. Afterall, God gives them every right to convert to Christianity and join our Armenian Apostolic Church. This occurred in the Greek Orthodox Church to a great extend, whereby the initially Muslim converts had to go on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land (Jerusalem), a pilgrimage called "khatzi" by the Greeks, and after their conversion, their patronymic bore the this word as a prefix, so you'd get names like Hatzistamatiou, Hatzimarkou, etc... for son of Stamatiou, or Markou. This lead to an important social distinction for these new members of Greek religious society, and Armenians can definitely do well to use a similar device for future Muslim converts. However, after enough generations, the force of this distinction can fade as this individual has intermarried more and more with the general Greek Orthodox population, resulting that the "Hatzi" stem in their name is just a surviving relic of a father of a father of a father of a father who happened to be a convert.

The main difficulty I see for Armenians in doing such a thing is the size of our race, a meager 3 million in the Caucasus. When the Greeks used this device for conversions, they were strong and well established as a cultural and imperial Byzantine force. Perhaps for them, it was both an affordable measure, and also a necessary one for extending their cultural influence to the peoples they dominated. For Armenians, I foresee that we would need to incorporate these measures to degrees relative to how much we will be able to chew without changing our own general racial characteristics. I guess admittance to our church would require a large measure of commitment and show of devoutness by the convert. A traditional pilgrimage to the Holy Land seems to show great enough commitment to me that they aren't just doing it for economic or common social reasons.

What do you guys think?

I understand what you're saying but I don't want to have mongol population even if they become Orthodox or whatnot. Now if that were the case every slant eyed seljuk would convert and say, yes neg achkani mongol hay em.

[merhayrenik]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

I think I like the way you think, however.... I don't think the majority of the diaspora thinks like this.....

"There are some Armenians who believe in humanistic ideas about how we should all sit down and love eachother regardless of race, and follow the path of romance."

Thats probably more of how they think... while they sit down and watch more hollywood propaganda.

Humanism = the destruction of my race right?
Humanism opposed the idea of racial preservation.
Humanists say your race, religion, ethnicity etc doesn't
matter, let's all intermarry and create a hybrid population
together forgetting all national racial cultural and ethnic pride.

[jgk3]

Re: Disturbing question on Artsakh

I agree nearly totally with your post jgk, nearly.

This situation where Armenians marry foreigners is not ideal but it's a fact of life. My personal view is that both parents being Armenian is the sought after ideal however, where there is only one parent Armenian, we have to have an even greater faith in our traditions and spirit for the children of these marriages to be Armenian, not Armenian-Whatsitnationality.
I have friends who are married to Greek & Ukrainian wives and their children, when asked, always proclaim their Armenianness, all three children speak Armenian, were baptised in Apostolic Church and I see no reason why they should be considered as any less Armenian than any other.
As a nation we cannot afford to "cast aside" half-Armenians any less than we can afford the danger of assimilation.
Therefore we need to give even greater support than usual to family & friends who marry outside of Haik's children.

Well, I don't see how this contradicts my assertion. The half Armenians who hold their Armenianness in great joy, who are dedicated towards our tradition are not the example of "humanists" I was addressing. The ones I was addressing were those who by seeking intermarriage with other races, or even marriage with another Armenian, who wish to cast aside their tradition and culture, they are the otaramols who pat themselves on the back with modern liberal ideas of freedom, democracy, egalitarianism. They live for "high standard of living" and like flies go to a turd, they seek a place where the economy is "doing well" so they can raise their families and adopt whatever otar ideal of the land they settle in.