Current Condition of Armenia

[Mher]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

I think you really only appreciate it when the Turks or Azeris are (real or metaphorically) at your throats - then you will expect and demand that Armenia is everyone's business and everyone has to pay attention to you. But until then, and on any subject when pressed, its "hands off - this is our business, none of your concern".

Its ironic that the type of posts that are almost completely absent from this forum are those about the sort of things that only an Armenian would experience or could write about. There is nothing specifically "Armenian" about corruption, about institutionalised criminality, about economic collapse, about being a failed state with a population in a state of collapse. So anyone can comment on those things. You might think that the fact that there are some very high paying careers in Armenia is signficant - but in the wider scheme of things it is not - every country has such jobs, and if the native population doesn't do them then foreign workers come in to do them. What is significant is the lack in Armenia of a large and stable middle class and a flourishing class of small to medium-size entrepeneurs. And of course there is the lack of a rule of law: it's one law for the rich, no law at all for everyone else. Most people don't need the daily protection of the law and the state, but for a country to flourish it is a requirement that people are confident that those services work and are there when needed.

See I never said you have no business in talking about Armenia. Rather I wanted to show you that I know very much what I'm talking about, and your implication that I had no idea how life in Armenia is and that I needed a lesson form you was false. The fact is I probably have a much better idea of how actual life there is than you. But never anywhere in that post did I say you have no business talking about Armenia.

And thank you for giving us a lesson that is taught in the most basic high school level economics class, that a middle class is important.
So here's my question to you? What stage would Armenia have to reach for you to stop complaining about it and it's level of performance?

Because I think everybody can understand it had various serious issues. While they might just be numbers and data to you, my heart burns every time I see updates on Armenia's emigration numbers. So the issue is not that do people realize there are issues, the problem is what you expect to be done?

Because it seems to me that all you are able to do is just constantly complain. Just constantly point out the absolute worst of every situation in Armenia, and never proceed to explain how when given the real life realistic restrictions the country faces, things should be done better. Moreover, you just have an ability to only point of the bad, making them seem exponentially worse, while conveniently just moving passed the positives.

You claim incredible human rights abuse when some cracked out moron with a cigarette in his mouth, loaded with manganese bombs and Molotov xxxxtails is arrested. the same man who was basically laughed at by the entire nation, including every opposite leader.

You make a state where people on daily basis mock the president, mock all of these all powerful oligarchs, seem like some dictatorship where zero dissent is allowed.

Moreover, you seem to expect Armenia to transform into Switzerland overnight, while ignoring the fact that its trapped in the biggest hellhole on earth, with two wolves on each side, and vultures named US, Russia, and EU flying overhead and seeing which can get its dying corps first.

By my count, excluding the Baltic states, Armenia is one of just 5 former 12 Soviet States not ruled by a dictatorship. Not only is it not ruled by a dictatorship, it has multiple opposition parties, opposition papers, full rights of assembly and speech. A place where you can go to the city center, appropriately named Freedom Square, start a rally without a permit and curse out the president that there is no freedom in the country, and nothing can be done to you. Forget the ex USSR. I can't think of many places in the world where you can do that. I don't know if you've been to the US, but here, you can get arrested for flicking off a cop. If you're black you can get arrested for breathing too loud. Yet in Armenia, the police are forced to take all sorts of behavior before they can raise a finger.

I would love to do an analysis of category by category, and show you that for the situation it was handed, Armenia is doing more than anything we can expect of her. It is outperforming most former soviet counterparts, without having their luxuries of vast territories, large populations, open borders, generous natural resources, lack of devastating natural disaster and war, and lack of being surrounded by people who dream of murdering the every last person in your country.

But there is no point in doing that because your views will not change. You'll continue spreading that cancer that you spread.

In fact that negativity, despite all the bad card it was dealt, is Armenia's biggest problem. It's that mentality that threatens Armenia's youth, who are not weighed down by how glorious the old days were, who simply have only known worse days, and are fighting to continue the progress of Armenia.

Does Armenia have problems? Absolutely
However, these problems are only natural given what its had to deal with. It has made a great amount of progress, and has a long way to go, but it will get there, with or without the complaining of some random man in Scotland.

[Mher]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

It is so good to see a young Armenian man write so intelligently. Mher i am proud of you for your heart is filled with love for your people and country despite the enormous obstacles which stand in our way. Armenia faces many problems but Mr Bell fails to take into account that all those careers he mentions which existed outside of Armenia are fast disappearing. There simply are not as many opportunities in the west as there used to be. A few people on this forum have a fixation on everything that is wrong with Armenia. People like Tom Servo and Bell the Cat will rip Armenia to shreds with every opportunity and will once in a while criticize the west then they will make outlandish statements like yeh i am fair because i criticize both sides..well i call bs. These people will dump on Armenia all day but only make a post or two in the fascist USA thread. Why are you not talking about the NDAA, Snowden, NSA, Prism...but oh yeh the pak shuka is the number one injustice vs humanity. We should indeed criticize anything that deserves criticism but lets put things in perspective. Yes we talk about Armenian issues more since this is a Armenian forum but that does not justify the total and absolute negativity of people here like Vrej who only see the bad and ignore the good at all cost. What we need is more people like Mher. Even if Mher's experience in Armenia ends up being a negative one he will still come out of it with a stronger connection to the people and the land that is Armenian and Armenia but lets give people like him a chance to at least try to succeed, by dumping on Armenia like so many here do we are discouraging people especially young people from forming their own opinion and we are instead giving them a completely negative perspective on our country which is not true and is misleading. Sure there are more opportunities still in USA then Armenia but it does not mean there are no opportunities in Armenia. It is not ideal but people do manage to live there and some manage to live well. Yeh there is corruption there but there is corruption most everywhere else to. The problem is that much of the criticism from the people mentioned here is aimed at not fixing Armenias problems but on highlighting them so that they glow in the dark and act as a humiliating repellent for anyone who would have ever thought about having anything to do with Armenia. This is the kind of bs that needs to stop. Constructive criticism is one thing but the bs that goes on here is a sinister disease.

Thank you very much it means a lot. A lot of the real life realities about Armenia, how to deal with its many short comings, and taking pragmatics steps came form users on this forum. If I had visited Armenia as an adult without all the information and lessons I learned here, I would have probably been just shell shocked about how the realities on the ground have nothing to do with the nationalistic Ararat and Njdeh and Monte stuff I grew up with, and I would have probably just given up.

And precisely, my friend who recently graduated from NYU Law School, the number 6 law school in the nation, is unable to find work. He says that since the recession, essentially for every 2 jobs, 3 students finish law school. In fact he has a job offer form the Armenian Economics Minister that he will likely take. 5/17 EU countries have 14+% unemployment, and unlike Armenia a vast majority of the people are not homeowners who have relatives who support them from abroad.

And I won't allow my experience in Armenia to ever be a negative one. I don't have any dreams of moving to Armenia and leading the country to better days. I don't think I'm going to bring a great change to the country. I know what the cold realities of the country are. I can barely manage my own life. I just want to have the chance to live in the place I truly love, and a raise an Armenian family in Armenia, because every second in that country as a average citizen beats being a millionaire in the US. I hope to simply be able to do my very small part by joining the new educated generation there that doesn't share much of the negativity of the previous generation, doesn't share in their hopelessness, and believes they can build their own country out of the ashes.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Thanks for trying to explain to me how things are in my own country, I really appreciate it. Here's some information for you.

I think you really only appreciate it when the Turks or Azeris are (real or metaphorically) at your throats - then you will expect and demand that Armenia is everyone's business and everyone has to pay attention to you. But until then, and on any subject when pressed, its "hands off - this is our business, none of your concern".

Its ironic that the type of posts that are almost completely absent from this forum are those about the sort of things that only an Armenian would experience or could write about. There is nothing specifically "Armenian" about corruption, about institutionalised criminality, about economic collapse, about being a failed state with a population in a state of collapse. So anyone can comment on those things. You might think that the fact that there are some very high paying careers in Armenia is signficant - but in the wider scheme of things it is not - every country has such jobs, and if the native population doesn't do them then foreign workers come in to do them. What is significant is the lack in Armenia of a large and stable middle class and a flourishing class of small to medium-size entrepeneurs. And of course there is the lack of a rule of law: it's one law for the rich, no law at all for everyone else. Most people don't need the daily protection of the law and the state, but for a country to flourish it is a requirement that people are confident that those services work and are there when needed.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

These people will dump on Armenia all day but only make a post or two in the fascist USA thread. Why are you not talking about the NDAA, Snowden, NSA, Prism...but oh yeh the pak shuka is the number one injustice vs humanity.

Such a wise person.The above is such good advice: "off-topic good, on-topic bad"

All discussions on the current condition of Armenia shoud be full of posts about the NDAA, Snowden, NSA, Prism. And anyone who dares discuss corruption in Armenia should have their discussion sabotaged by posts about "fascist USA".

[Haykakan]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

It is so good to see a young Armenian man write so intelligently. Mher i am proud of you for your heart is filled with love for your people and country despite the enormous obstacles which stand in our way. Armenia faces many problems but Mr Bell fails to take into account that all those careers he mentions which existed outside of Armenia are fast disappearing. There simply are not as many opportunities in the west as there used to be. A few people on this forum have a fixation on everything that is wrong with Armenia. People like Tom Servo and Bell the Cat will rip Armenia to shreds with every opportunity and will once in a while criticize the west then they will make outlandish statements like yeh i am fair because i criticize both sides..well i call bs. These people will dump on Armenia all day but only make a post or two in the fascist USA thread. Why are you not talking about the NDAA, Snowden, NSA, Prism...but oh yeh the pak shuka is the number one injustice vs humanity. We should indeed criticize anything that deserves criticism but lets put things in perspective. Yes we talk about Armenian issues more since this is a Armenian forum but that does not justify the total and absolute negativity of people here like Vrej who only see the bad and ignore the good at all cost. What we need is more people like Mher. Even if Mher's experience in Armenia ends up being a negative one he will still come out of it with a stronger connection to the people and the land that is Armenian and Armenia but lets give people like him a chance to at least try to succeed, by dumping on Armenia like so many here do we are discouraging people especially young people from forming their own opinion and we are instead giving them a completely negative perspective on our country which is not true and is misleading. Sure there are more opportunities still in USA then Armenia but it does not mean there are no opportunities in Armenia. It is not ideal but people do manage to live there and some manage to live well. Yeh there is corruption there but there is corruption most everywhere else to. The problem is that much of the criticism from the people mentioned here is aimed at not fixing Armenias problems but on highlighting them so that they glow in the dark and act as a humiliating repellent for anyone who would have ever thought about having anything to do with Armenia. This is the kind of bs that needs to stop. Constructive criticism is one thing but the bs that goes on here is a sinister disease.

[Mher]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

YOU are the one with the negative outlook. And of course you indulge in the obligatory (for here, or for Armenians in general?) ad hominem attack. (If you don't know what I mean by "ad hominem attack" I think you need to look it up - if you are aware you are doing it, maybe you will stop doing it.)
But backto your post. To you, half of Armenia is collapsing and it is only deserving of the shrug of a shoulder, and a dismisive "it happens everywhere" and "what do you expect when a planned economy ends". I doubt if you have an understanding of what things are actually like for people there. There are no careers for people in Armenia to change too. The only secure jobs are in the state - and for those you only advance through bribery, or through who you know or are related to, or by brown-nosing to criminals or your corrupt bosses. Training or ability or a talent to do the job counts for nothing. The only alternative is the exit door to places in the world that do have career-type jobs with secure futures based on personal abilities and the rule of law.

Thanks for trying to explain to me how things are in my own country, I really appreciate it. Here's some information for you: I've been there 4 times, twice for extended periods, I have family there, I have many friends that I keep in touch with daily, and as we speak I'm currently applying for the American University of Armenia MBA program, and I could very well repatriate next fall. Moreover, I have multiple relatives who gave up their lives before I was born for there to be an independent Armenia today, so yes I have every right to speak as I chose about my homeland.

Also thanks for explaining to be what an ad hominem attack is. I believe that was covered at some point during junior high school English class.

Now let me try to teach you some things as you kindly did for me. If you have an education, there are plenty of good jobs in Armenia. For most fields of engineer there are very high paying careers with plenty of opportunities. I bring up engineering because I'm an engineer and that's the career path I have the most information about. I have plenty of relatives who have very successful businesses set in Armenia. I can assure you, none of them are oligarchs, none of them are corrupt, they all had fathers who fought in the war, and they love their country very much. Again do they claim that life is perfect? No. When they come here, they say, I'm not going to lie, life is easier here, but not so much so that I would want to leave the land of my ancestors. Now am I claiming that they are more patriotic than others? No, they are fortunate to have succeeded in business. I'm simply trying to disprove your "there are no careers/jobs in Armenia" theory.

Now am I going to pretend that uneployment is not approaching 30%, or that life resembles anything to what it is here in Los Angeles? of course not, I'm not delusional. Nor do I suggest people there just buck up and make it through cold winters watching their sons get drafted, while I enjoy the beautiful California weather here.

I simply have realistic expectations of a country that faces literally one of the absolute worst geopolitical situations in the history of human civilization. I simply think for a country whose state budget is half of the military budget of an enemy hell bent on burning it to the ground, Armenia has done relatively well.

Nor do I suggest that those people continue to fight to improve my homeland while I kick back and watch. That's why I'm set on moving asap.


Now here's a few general suggestions for you in your approach to life and this forum:

I think the intelligence as well as the opposition view you bring to this forum is very necessary to balance an overly nationalistic/military mentality that exists here. However your issue is that you have a snobby sense of know it all attitude, combined with an absolutely and never relenting negativity towards absolutely everything that destroys your credibility.

[londontsi]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

[londontsi]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

There is a big leap from "such an economy is unsustainable, and people will have to change careers" to "everyone will just leave the country"

but i don't know why i bother to try to reason with your constant criticism and negativity of my country. Maybe the thought that Armenia is doomed to destruction makes you feel better about some shortcomings in your own life.

YOU are the one with the negative outlook. And of course you indulge in the obligatory (for here, or for Armenians in general?) ad hominem attack. (If you don't know what I mean by "ad hominem attack" I think you need to look it up - if you are aware you are doing it, maybe you will stop doing it.)
But backto your post. To you, half of Armenia is collapsing and it is only deserving of the shrug of a shoulder, and a dismisive "it happens everywhere" and "what do you expect when a planned economy ends". I doubt if you have an understanding of what things are actually like for people there. There are no careers for people in Armenia to change too. The only secure jobs are in the state - and for those you only advance through bribery, or through who you know or are related to, or by brown-nosing to criminals or your corrupt bosses. Training or ability or a talent to do the job counts for nothing. The only alternative is the exit door to places in the world that do have career-type jobs with secure futures based on personal abilities and the rule of law.

[Mher]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

If that delusion makes you happy, then stick with it.

Take it further though, maybe the whole of Armenia will go away since the whole post-centrally planned economy is unplanned and barely fit to be called an economy. But the last to leave must not forget to put the lights out and feed the tigers in Dodi Gago's private zoo.

There is a big leap from "such an economy is unsustainable, and people will have to change careers" to "everyone will just leave the country"

but i don't know why i bother to try to reason with your constant criticism and negativity of my country. Maybe the thought that Armenia is doomed to destruction makes you feel better about some shortcomings in your own life.