Current Condition of Armenia

[Mos]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Well also remember that not all J3ws are Israelis. There are a good amount J3ws that are even ardent critics of Israel. The relationship between a J3ws and Israel is not universally the same, and examples of some women spies of Israel here and there doesn't mean every J3wish woman is a spy for Mossad. Did Armenia become a close ally of Israel during LTP's presidency? How much really did Israel influence Armenia during that time? How do we know the selling of Karabakh wasn't due to Russia or other powers? This is what should be looked at rather than speculation.

Well of course inter-marriage between different religions is often difficult, and not recommended, especially for us Armenians. For this reason we should restrict Iranians marrying Armenians who convert those women and then their children to Islam.

What would you think if Lyudmilla was Muslim?

[Federate]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Well also remember that not all J3ws are Israelis. There are a good amount J3ws that are even ardent critics of Israel. The relationship between a J3ws and Israel is not universally the same, and examples of some women spies of Israel here and there doesn't mean every J3wish woman is a spy for Mossad. Did Armenia become a close ally of Israel during LTP's presidency? How much really did Israel influence Armenia during that time? How do we know the selling of Karabakh wasn't due to Russia or other powers? This is what should be looked at rather than speculation.

Well of course inter-marriage between different religions is often difficult, and not recommended, especially for us Armenians. For this reason we should restrict Iranians marrying Armenians who convert those women and then their children to Islam.

What would you think if Lyudmilla was Muslim?

In politics, it's always a risk. No such gamble must be taken.

LTP had 3 years to govern between the end of the war and his resignation and during that short period of time, he wrote off the AG as important foreign policy (goodbye ANCA, enemies of the J3wish lobby) and almost sold out Karabakh. If selling out Karabakh was a Russian plan, it would have been done by now, we've been up Russian ass since then. It was an American plan more specifically the Goble plan and we know who has most of the keys in said country.

Muslim is not associated with any specific ethnicity. I'd loosely think about a Turkic bias but no, nothing like Israel and their history of spies.

[Mos]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

In politics, it's always a risk. No such gamble must be taken.

LTP had 3 years to govern between the end of the war and his resignation and during that short period of time, he wrote off the AG as important foreign policy (goodbye ANCA, enemies of the J3wish lobby) and almost sold out Karabakh. If selling out Karabakh was a Russian plan, it would have been done by now, we've been up Russian ass since then. It was an American plan more specifically the Goble plan and we know who has most of the keys in said country.

Muslim is not associated with any specific ethnicity. I'd loosely think about a Turkic bias but no, nothing like Israel and their history of spies.

Well in a way Serzh also did the same thing with the AG issue when he agreed to the protocols with Turkey for normalisation. His agreement on that was seen by many Armenians as a sell-out. Who was Serzh influenced by?

About the Karabakh sell out, I'm still very sceptical that Israel was directly involved in influencing LTP to sell Karabakh. I see it more him being desperate because of the economy, and wanting to make this decision in order to open borders. Of course a very stupid decision.

I don't believe all j3ws fall into the same ethnicity. That being said, Muslim is not associate with any specific ethnicity, but remember a great majority of Muslims in the end of the day would support Azerbaijan and Turkey over Armenia, solely based on religion. The Islamic Organisation of States worked overnight in their support of Azerbaijan, sent weapons, money, and frequently condemns Armenia. Iran of course is a notable exception, but their government decision not to take Azerbaijan's side in my opinion is more based on strategic interests rather than some cultural or historical solidarity.

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Well in a way Serzh also did the same thing with the AG issue when he agreed to the protocols with Turkey for normalisation. His agreement on that was seen by many Armenians as a sell-out. Who was Serzh influenced by?

About the Karabakh sell out, I'm still very sceptical that Israel was directly involved in influencing LTP to sell Karabakh. I see it more him being desperate because of the economy, and wanting to make this decision in order to open borders. Of course a very stupid decision.

I don't believe all j3ws fall into the same ethnicity. That being said, Muslim is not associate with any specific ethnicity, but remember a great majority of Muslims in the end of the day would support Azerbaijan and Turkey over Armenia, solely based on religion. The Islamic Organisation of States worked overnight in their support of Azerbaijan, sent weapons, money, and frequently condemns Armenia. Iran of course is a notable exception, but their government decision not to take Azerbaijan's side in my opinion is more based on strategic interests rather than some cultural or historical solidarity.

Pray tell how the Protocols were a sell out vis a vis the Genocide recognition?

[Mos]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Pray tell how the Protocols were a sell out vis a vis the Genocide recognition?

It was agreed that a "historic" commission would be set up with the Turks to discuss the Genocide. Armenians from the start have been vehemently against such a commission as its existence brings the legitimacy of the Genocide into question. The biggest reason there was such an uproar in diaspora was the effective selling of this genocide issue by Serzh.

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

It was agreed that a "historic" commission would be set up with the Turks to discuss the Genocide. Armenians from the start have been vehemently against such a commission as its existence brings the legitimacy of the Genocide into question. The biggest reason there was such an uproar in diaspora was the effective selling of this genocide issue by Serzh.

It said a commission would be set up to discuss mutual history, no specific mention of the Genocide, that was/is speculation. And how does setting up a commission lower the legitimacy of the AG? One can say that Armenians not wanting to set up a commission lowers the legitimacy because people may think Armenia doesn't want the 'facts/truth' to come out; like we have something to hide. Personally I wouldn't want to see a commission set up because I know the turks wouldn't accept its findings if it said a genocide did occur, so it would be a waste of time. However, all one has to do to figure out if a genocide occured or not is read the primary documents from the period, and then read the legal definition of 'genocide'. Sadly, people do not do their own homework and instead want to be spoon fed knowledge and facts.


The fact is, Armenia has more to gain from an open border than does turkey. And the Protocols had a nice side effect of straining relations between official baku and ankara.

[Mos]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

It said a commission would be set up to discuss mutual history, no specific mention of the Genocide, that was/is speculation. And how does setting up a commission lower the legitimacy of the AG? One can say that Armenians not wanting to set up a commission lowers the legitimacy because people may think Armenia doesn't want the 'facts/truth' to come out; like we have something to hide. Personally I wouldn't want to see a commission set up because I know the turks wouldn't accept its findings if it said a genocide did occur, so it would be a waste of time. However, all one has to do to figure out if a genocide occured or not is read the primary documents from the period, and then read the legal definition of 'genocide'. Sadly, people do not do their own homework and instead want to be spoon fed knowledge and facts.


The fact is, Armenia has more to gain from an open border than does turkey. And the Protocols had a nice side effect of straining relations between official baku and ankara.

Many Armenians saw Serzh as selling Armenia, especially when it came to history. What you think that comission would talk about? The biggest even in the history between Armenia and Turkey is the Genocide, obviously it would be talked about. The Genocide is a fact - setting up a commission to discuss the legitimacy about the genocide no doubt lowers the legitimacy. Imagine if a commission was created to talk about the J3wish Holocaust? Our policy has simply been, no to such a commission. Plus, this whole thing was done conveniently on April 23.

Some Diaspora leaders have expressed serious concern about key points of the two draft protocols envisaging the normalization of bilateral relations. They are particularly critical of the planned creation of a Turkish-Armenian panel of historians that would look into the 1915 mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, claiming that this provision is tantamount to questioning the fact of the Armenian Genocide.
Diaspora groups also object to another protocol clause that commits Armenia to recognizing its existing border with Turkey. They argue that it would preclude future Armenian territorial claims to areas in eastern Turkey that were populated by their ancestors until the 1915-1918 massacres.
There are also lingering concerns in and outside Armenia about a possible linkage between Armenian-Turkish normalization and the Armenian-Azerbaijan talks on the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute.

It strained relations between baku and ankara, but only for a short while, as Ankara quickly linked it to karabakh after it was signed. The matter of the fact is, the same way Armenians accused Levon of selling Karabakh to the Turks; same way many Armenians accused Serzh of selling Armenia and the genocide issue to the Turks with these protocols.

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Many Armenians saw Serzh as selling Armenia, especially when it came to history. What you think that comission would talk about? The biggest even in the history between Armenia and Turkey is the Genocide, obviously it would be talked about. The Genocide is a fact - setting up a commission to discuss the legitimacy about the genocide no doubt lowers the legitimacy. Imagine if a commission was created to talk about the J3wish Holocaust? Our policy has simply been, no to such a commission. Plus, this whole thing was done conveniently on April 23.

Well many Armenians don't have a clue about international relations and geopolitics. Furthermore, many Armenians reside outside of Armenia and do not do nearly enough to better Armenia. The holocaust was promoted by the ussr and western powers for political reasons and now with the great influence which joos enjoy in western countries it has become a genocide that's treated as 'above' any other prior or after. I don't doubt that the Genocide would be the main and possibly only topic discussed if such a historical commission were set up.

It strained relations between baku and ankara, but only for a short while, as Ankara quickly linked it to karabakh after it was signed. The matter of the fact is, the same way Armenians accused Levon of selling Karabakh to the Turks; same way many Armenians accused Serzh of selling Armenia and the genocide issue to the Turks with these protocols.

Signs still point to tensions in the azeri-turkish relationship, although not on the same level as when the Protocols were first announced in 2009. Serj is from Artsakh, he is not going to sell it to anyone, and frankly speaking the only country that could force Armenia to cede lands to azerbaijan is Russia, and that isn't going to happen anytime soon if at all. I think the Protocols were misunderstood and 'opposition' members decided to take advantage of the event and discredit official Yerevan. Since the turks put up preconditions which were ruled out by both sides as well the EU, US, and Russia, turkey now looks like an @ss, and they can no longer claim that Armenia is the one who is against establishing relations. In short, they have not kept their words and nations with in interest in the region have taken note. I'd also add that there are reports that the turks were pressured into signing the Protocols and that they indeed had wanted to put in preconditions but were talked out of it by the mediators shortly before the actual signing of the document. It is clear that turkey has much less to gain from an open border than does Armenia, and they know it.

[Mos]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Signs still point to tensions in the azeri-turkish relationship, although not on the same level as when the Protocols were first announced in 2009. Serj is from Artsakh, he is not going to sell it to anyone, and frankly speaking the only country that could force Armenia to cede lands to azerbaijan is Russia, and that isn't going to happen anytime soon if at all. I think the Protocols were misunderstood and 'opposition' members decided to take advantage of the event and discredit official Yerevan. Since the turks put up preconditions which were ruled out by both sides as well the EU, US, and Russia, turkey now looks like an @ss, and they can no longer claim that Armenia is the one who is against establishing relations. In short, they have not kept their words and nations with in interest in the region have taken note. I'd also add that there are reports that the turks were pressured into signing the Protocols and that they indeed had wanted to put in preconditions but were talked out of it by the mediators shortly before the actual signing of the document. It is clear that turkey has much less to gain from an open border than does Armenia, and they know it.

Well I doubt the Azeri Turkish tensions now, both recently signed a strategic cooperation agreement, and weapons/military assistance is flowing between both sides. Yes there was a low point, but the Turkish leadership knew that politically it was suicide to harm relations with Baku.

I'm not saying Serzh wanted to sell Karabakh, I'm only commenting on the fact that many Armenians both in Armenia and outside of Armenia were seeing the protocols as a sell out to Turkey - the major reason being the Genocide not Karabakh. The Genocide issue is a key tool for Armenia to use against Turkey, and given our small size and power in comparison to Turkey, it is a very effective means of pressure.

In terms of Turks gaining from protocols, remember that Eastern Turkey is heavily underdeveloped and poor, thus many businessmen in Eastern Turkey supported opening borders as it would revitalise the area economically. One of the obstacles in Turkey's EU ascension is the poverty and underdevloped nature of Eastern Turkey, namely Kurdish regions. Not to mention the good PR Turkey would get with these protocols. So I believe Turkey did have things to gain from the protocols, both economically and also in terms of image. It was also done on April 23, probably a ploy to make sure government were more soft on their commemoration of the Genocide.

[Armanen]

Re: Current Condition of Armenia

Well I doubt the Azeri Turkish tensions now, both recently signed a strategic cooperation agreement, and weapons/military assistance is flowing between both sides. Yes there was a low point, but the Turkish leadership knew that politically it was suicide to harm relations with Baku.

I'm not saying Serzh wanted to sell Karabakh, I'm only commenting on the fact that many Armenians both in Armenia and outside of Armenia were seeing the protocols as a sell out to Turkey - the major reason being the Genocide not Karabakh. The Genocide issue is a key tool for Armenia to use against Turkey, and given our small size and power in comparison to Turkey, it is a very effective means of pressure.

In terms of Turks gaining from protocols, remember that Eastern Turkey is heavily underdeveloped and poor, thus many businessmen in Eastern Turkey supported opening borders as it would revitalise the area economically. One of the obstacles in Turkey's EU ascension is the poverty and underdevloped nature of Eastern Turkey, namely Kurdish regions. Not to mention the good PR Turkey would get with these protocols. So I believe Turkey did have things to gain from the protocols, both economically and also in terms of image. It was also done on April 23, probably a ploy to make sure government were more soft on their commemoration of the Genocide.

Yes, the signed that agreement which has not been ratified by either parliament, so for now it is as worthless as the paper it was typed on. Also, wikileaks showed that aliyev doesn't like erdogan or his party. I think the Russians wanted the Protocols to go thru so as to weaken turkish-azeri relations, which would be in Moscow's interests. I also do not think that the drive to open the border is over yet, after the next turkish elections there is a good chance talks will resume and the border will be opened.

The Genocide issue will not be lost if Armenia has open borders with turkey. Open borders would also lesson georgia's role in the Armenian economy, and provide our oligarchs more room to make investments, I think this would only help Armenia.

Of course turkey has some things to gain from open borders but remember, they want to keep the kurds under foot, and a more developed eastern turkey may not be fully in their interest. Also, the turkish public is not much less keen on joining the EU than a few years ago and the dominant players of the EU, Germany & France are dead set against turkish membership, not to mention Cyprus and Austria. Overall thought turkey would rather keep Armenia isolated and not strain relations with baku.