Status of assimilation in the Diaspora

[Chubs]

What is the status of Armenians in the Diaspora, how assimilated are they into those cultures? And what types of cultures do you believe are a threat to our Diaspora as a whole

There are 5-8 million Armenians worldwide, 1.8 million in Russia, a recorded 500 thousand in the United States (I hear that there are 1,000,000, but those come from Armenian sources, which cannot be trusted due to the fact that they tend to inflate the number for lobbying and political purposes) , around 3 million in Armenia, and a forever unknown number in France.

Then, there are the Armenians in our neighboring nations like Georgia and Iran, numbering together in about 350,000.


I think its safe to assume, that the religious differences in Muslim countries make the diasporans there irrelevant to the topic because these religious difference tends to rule out interethnic marriages and adoptions of different cultures.

In the Caucasus (Armenia, Georgia, Russian Krasnador Krai ) and Iran alone, there are 3.6 million Armenians.


Does anyone know the status of assimilation of Armenians in Russia

in Georgia?

in France?

We all know, that Armenians assimilate faster in America than they would in those cultural and religious based nations. Western culture tends to devour ethnic groups, and their nativists eventually, after hundreds of years, force them into the dominant blanket culture.

[Mher]

Re: Status of assimilation in the Diaspora

In Georgia there's about 100,000 in Javakh who are culturally fully Armenian, in Tiblisi no so much, the Armenians there are more assimilated
In Iran there isn't many Armenians left. There were 200,000-up to 500,000 (figures vary, closer to 200K) before 1979, but today there 20,000-30,000 and declining everyday
In America there's supposedly 500,000-1,000,0000 but in reality, there's probably at best 200,000 that are culturally significantly Armenian, and with what I see around myself, they're probably going to almost entirely gone in two generations.
In Russia, it's an even more sad version of the US. Armenians already have a familiarity with Russian culture and language, and have religious similarity, not to mention a unhealthy reverence. So the transition from Armenian to Russian is not a very big leap, and it doesn't take very long.
In France there's supposedly 500,000 but in reality a small small minority are culturally armenian, or speak the language. for all intents and purpose there are french people who donate to armenia.
Lebanon is probably the last stable Armenian community left outside of Armenia, Artsakh, and Javakh where assimilation is not an issue, and even that is likely subject to decline to some immigration and only another war away from going the way of the Iran, Iraq and Syria communities.

At the end of the day, the Diaspora is a temporary crutch the RoA was able to use to get to its feet after independence. We should not look at it as a static situation. The only place where assimilation wasn't a overwhelming force was the middle east, and those communities are almost entirely gone. In two generations, I doubt there's going to be much Armenian culture in these communities in Russia or the US. This is why the biggest focus for us should be the prospering of the RoA, and the people currently living there. Because whether now or in 50 years, everyone in the diaspora and their descendents will eventually assimilate. And that's why for anyone who really cares for their own culture surviving should strive toward repatriation.

[Chubs]

Re: Status of assimilation in the Diaspora

In Georgia there's about 100,000 in Javakh who are culturally fully Armenian, in Tiblisi no so much, the Armenians there are more assimilated
In Iran there isn't many Armenians left. There were 200,000-up to 500,000 (figures vary, closer to 200K) before 1979, but today there 20,000-30,000 and declining everyday
In America there's supposedly 500,000-1,000,0000 but in reality, there's probably at best 200,000 that are culturally significantly Armenian, and with what I see around myself, they're probably going to almost entirely gone in two generations.
In Russia, it's an even more sad version of the US. Armenians already have a familiarity with Russian culture and language, and have religious similarity, not to mention a unhealthy reverence. So the transition from Armenian to Russian is not a very big leap, and it doesn't take very long.
In France there's supposedly 500,000 but in reality a small small minority are culturally armenian, or speak the language. for all intents and purpose there are french people who donate to armenia.
Lebanon is probably the last stable Armenian community left outside of Armenia, Artsakh, and Javakh where assimilation is not an issue, and even that is likely subject to decline to some immigration and only another war away from going the way of the Iran, Iraq and Syria communities.

At the end of the day, the Diaspora is a temporary crutch the RoA was able to use to get to its feet after independence. We should not look at it as a static situation. The only place where assimilation wasn't a overwhelming force was the middle east, and those communities are almost entirely gone. In two generations, I doubt there's going to be much Armenian culture in these communities in Russia or the US. This is why the biggest focus for us should be the prospering of the RoA, and the people currently living there. Because whether now or in 50 years, everyone in the diaspora and their descendents will eventually assimilate. And that's why for anyone who really cares for their own culture surviving should strive toward repatriation.

Well, thats just depressing. Although, wouldn't you think that the new waves of immigration in Russia from Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia has refreshed the Armenian communities in Russia? Or are they just being herded into the slaughterhouse as well?

Why are Armenians more assimilated in Tblisi, which only numbers around 80,000? Or have Armenians in Georgia simply acculturated like in Russia?


I can see why repatriation is so important, and why emigration is terrifying for some Armenians. We all know Armenia can't withstand a population around 4 million, mainly because its already as densley populated as the country can get.

Mher, what do you think land reparations from Turkey (Only in our dreams) would do repatriation wise? Do you think it might become something similar to the Western territories for the United States?


In France, I do not believe that ethnicity is ever specified on their census and they do not recognize race in France, correct?



So, repatriation wise, what do you think? Would Georgian Armenians be Armenia's best bet, or perhaps more wealthier Diasporas would be?

I wish Birthright Armenia had more members, its a great organization. Only 750 members correct?



My friend and I have been going around on Armenian forums and asking similar questions to get a general idea of what Armenians think assimilation is doing to our Diaspora around the world

[Mher]

Re: Status of assimilation in the Diaspora

Well, thats just depressing. Although, wouldn't you think that the new waves of immigration in Russia from Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia has refreshed the Armenian communities in Russia? Or are they just being herded into the slaughterhouse as well?

Why are Armenians more assimilated in Tblisi, which only numbers around 80,000? Or have Armenians in Georgia simply acculturated like in Russia?


I can see why repatriation is so important, and why emigration is terrifying for some Armenians. We all know Armenia can't withstand a population around 4 million, mainly because its already as densley populated as the country can get.

Mher, what do you think land reparations from Turkey (Only in our dreams) would do repatriation wise? Do you think it might become something similar to the Western territories for the United States?


In France, I do not believe that ethnicity is ever specified on their census and they do not recognize race in France, correct?



So, repatriation wise, what do you think? Would Georgian Armenians be Armenia's best bet, or perhaps more wealthier Diasporas would be?

I wish Birthright Armenia had more members, its a great organization. Only 750 members correct?



My friend and I have been going around on Armenian forums and asking similar questions to get a general idea of what Armenians think assimilation is doing to our Diaspora around the world

from what I've seen from people I know who are recent immigrants to Russia, assimilation is pretty strong, and immigration from Armenia can only slow it down for so long. It's inevitable.

Armenians in Javakh are not assimilated because Javakh is basically a part of Armenia as is entirely populated by Armenians and attached to Armenia. Not to mention the dirty Georgian government doesn't invest in the region to allow it to integrate it into Georgia. It does this to hinder it's development and encourage emigration. Which btw reminds me, the 100k javakh number is just a wikipedia number, someone else could probably give a more accurate number, which i would guess is less.

Armenia is not that densely populated. It could easily support a much bigger population. It's only ranked at the 99th in the world in terms of population. Not to mention almost half of that is in Yerevan. There's so much land when you think about Gyumri and Vanadzor, and not to mention all of Syunik, that Armenia could probably support 10 million people with no problem.

I don't think land reparations are coming, and definitely not anytime soon. Even if they do, these regions are so undeveloped. Mainly because the government had an intentional policy to keep the kurds as backwards as they were. Armenia is relatively better of than some of these places in Western Armenia. So I don't know how much they would help. The problem is not territory, but to have infrastructure and development. Again look at Syunik. All of that land is practically uninhabited at this point because of lack of infrastructure and integration with other major population and economic centers in Armenia.

Yeah, the 500k number in france is just what they mention in article, and it's just repeated, but again i doubt more than a few thousand even speak armenian.

Yeah birthright does a great job, but again its a drop in the bucket, and even then, only a small number repatriate. Honestly the biggest focus should be the development of Armenia, and the people currently living there. The concept of repatriation is so complex, and it's so hard to motivate someone is not part of the minority who are very nationalistic.

Armenia is not short on population at the moment. Like I said before, the Baltic countries are doing well with populations smaller than Armenia. The concern is maintaing that population and developing the nation we have so people don't have a reason to leave and so they have a motivation to have more kids. Not some fantasy situation of getting land and people back.

[Artashes]

Re: Status of assimilation in the Diaspora

from what I've seen from people I know who are recent immigrants to Russia, assimilation is pretty strong, and immigration from Armenia can only slow it down for so long. It's inevitable.

Armenians in Javakh are not assimilated because Javakh is basically a part of Armenia as is entirely populated by Armenians and attached to Armenia. Not to mention the dirty Georgian government doesn't invest in the region to allow it to integrate it into Georgia. It does this to hinder it's development and encourage emigration. Which btw reminds me, the 100k javakh number is just a wikipedia number, someone else could probably give a more accurate number, which i would guess is less.

Armenia is not that densely populated. It could easily support a much bigger population. It's only ranked at the 99th in the world in terms of population. Not to mention almost half of that is in Yerevan. There's so much land when you think about Gyumri and Vanadzor, and not to mention all of Syunik, that Armenia could probably support 10 million people with no problem.

I don't think land reparations are coming, and definitely not anytime soon. Even if they do, these regions are so undeveloped. Mainly because the government had an intentional policy to keep the kurds as backwards as they were. Armenia is relatively better of than some of these places in Western Armenia. So I don't know how much they would help. The problem is not territory, but to have infrastructure and development. Again look at Syunik. All of that land is practically uninhabited at this point because of lack of infrastructure and integration with other major population and economic centers in Armenia.

Yeah, the 500k number in france is just what they mention in article, and it's just repeated, but again i doubt more than a few thousand even speak armenian.

Yeah birthright does a great job, but again its a drop in the bucket, and even then, only a small number repatriate. Honestly the biggest focus should be the development of Armenia, and the people currently living there. The concept of repatriation is so complex, and it's so hard to motivate someone is not part of the minority who are very nationalistic.

Armenia is not short on population at the moment. Like I said before, the Baltic countries are doing well with populations smaller than Armenia. The concern is maintaing that population and developing the nation we have so people don't have a reason to leave and so they have a motivation to have more kids. Not some fantasy situation of getting land and people back.

I agree with Mher's analysis.
I also agree that repatriation of western Armenia is not in view (at) this time, with the caveat that Mhere's mentioned; ie, we need to be ready if the opportunity arises.
However, my feelings are, (if) we got back western Armenia, the diaspora and those in Armenia who originate from western Armenia would --- FLOOD --- back to western Armenia. The industriousness of those returning and the accompanying capital would swiftly change the area into a powerhouse.
Upon the return of those lands, one would see a similar occurrence that took place with Israel. Massive demographic shift.
Sure, it's only dreaming now, but as Mher said ... We should be ready.

[Chubs]

Re: Status of assimilation in the Diaspora

from what I've seen from people I know who are recent immigrants to Russia, assimilation is pretty strong, and immigration from Armenia can only slow it down for so long. It's inevitable.

Armenians in Javakh are not assimilated because Javakh is basically a part of Armenia as is entirely populated by Armenians and attached to Armenia. Not to mention the dirty Georgian government doesn't invest in the region to allow it to integrate it into Georgia. It does this to hinder it's development and encourage emigration. Which btw reminds me, the 100k javakh number is just a wikipedia number, someone else could probably give a more accurate number, which i would guess is less.

Armenia is not that densely populated. It could easily support a much bigger population. It's only ranked at the 99th in the world in terms of population. Not to mention almost half of that is in Yerevan. There's so much land when you think about Gyumri and Vanadzor, and not to mention all of Syunik, that Armenia could probably support 10 million people with no problem.

I don't think land reparations are coming, and definitely not anytime soon. Even if they do, these regions are so undeveloped. Mainly because the government had an intentional policy to keep the kurds as backwards as they were. Armenia is relatively better of than some of these places in Western Armenia. So I don't know how much they would help. The problem is not territory, but to have infrastructure and development. Again look at Syunik. All of that land is practically uninhabited at this point because of lack of infrastructure and integration with other major population and economic centers in Armenia.

Yeah, the 500k number in france is just what they mention in article, and it's just repeated, but again i doubt more than a few thousand even speak armenian.

Yeah birthright does a great job, but again its a drop in the bucket, and even then, only a small number repatriate. Honestly the biggest focus should be the development of Armenia, and the people currently living there. The concept of repatriation is so complex, and it's so hard to motivate someone is not part of the minority who are very nationalistic.

Armenia is not short on population at the moment. Like I said before, the Baltic countries are doing well with populations smaller than Armenia. The concern is maintaing that population and developing the nation we have so people don't have a reason to leave and so they have a motivation to have more kids. Not some fantasy situation of getting land and people back.

You do know that wikipedia editors dont pull numbers out of their ass right? They are forced to get a credible source, from government or third party websites.

The Baltic countries aren't as well off as some might say, they are facing a new wave of population decline that has occurred just recently, and they border an imperialist power that would rather have them gobbled up.

Around 70,000 in France are apparently native Armenian speakers, there are Armenian schools in many French cities, but due to the lack of the ethnicity question on their census I believe that there is no reliable information on how many are in the country.

My question is though, Armenians have lived in Russia, and the Soviet Union, for a very long time. Why all of a sudden is "assimilation" kicking in? (I honestly believe, Armenians are facing acculturation rather, but in return slowly assimilating.)


I agree, repatriate is unrealistic and should not be seen as a solution, but what will happen to Armenians in the Diaspora in 30 years? Will they just, integrate completely and only leave a smaller minority left?

Armenia has been borderline 3 million people for several years now, lets hope it stays that way, and possible increases more than the amount it did recently

Thanks for the great conversation, I have nothing more to share except for this I found from a Turkish newspaper, I wonder where the opposition gets its figures from...Enjoy.

[Mher]

Re: Status of assimilation in the Diaspora

ya I know, that's why i noted it. I believe the Javakh number is probably less than that. As far as the other numbers, they're pretty accurate
assimilation isn't just kicking in now, it's always been a natural phenomenon, but I would argue with the decline of the role of the family in life, and the dramatic increase of technology, and pop culture, assimilation is just more of a force than before.

I guess some element of Armenian culture will nr existent in the Diaspora for a few generations, but it'll naturally get smaller and smaller going forward. Just looking at the US, there isn't a major population of Armenians from Armenia and Iran coming in like they did 1985-2000. So assimilation is picking up. I would think in 30 years, Glendale will be closer to the Armenian community in Fresno.