Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

Zionists: Anti-Armenian since the 1890s

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Zionists: Anti-Armenian since the 1890s

    Zionism’s Founder supported the Ottomans against the Armenians, believing this would get the sultan to sell Palestine to the Jews.


    This article was originally published in haaretz.
    He supported the brutal Ottoman sultan against them, believing this would get the sultan to sell Palestine to the Jews.

    ++++++++++++++
    How Herzl sold out the Armenians
    The Founder of the Zionist movement supported the brutal Ottoman sultan against the Armenians, believing this would get the sultan to sell Palestine to the Jews.
    By Rachel Elboim-Dror | Haaretz | May 1, 2015 |


    The Armenian question has occupied the Zionist movement since a mass killing of Armenians was carried out by the Turks in the mid 1890s — prior even to the First Zionist Congress. Herzl’s strategy was based on the idea of an exchange: The Jews would pay off the Ottoman Empire’s huge debt, in return for the acquisition of Palestine and the establishment of a Jewish state there, with the major powers’ consent. Herzl had been working hard to persuade Sultan Abdul Hamid II to accept the proposal, but to no avail.

    “Instead of offering the Sultan money,” Herzl’s diplomatic agent Philip Michael Nevlinski (who also advised the Sultan) told him, “give him political support on the Armenian issue, and he’ll be grateful and accept your proposal, in part at least.” The Christian European countries had been critical of the murder of Armenian Christians at the hands of Muslims, and committees supporting the Armenians had been founded in various places, and Europe also offered refuge to leaders of the Armenian revolt. This situation made it very difficult for Turkey to obtain loans from European banks.

    Herzl eagerly took the advice. He felt that it was appropriate to try any means possible to hasten the establishment of a Jewish state. And so he agreed to serve as a tool of the Sultan, by trying to convince the leaders of the Armenian revolt that if they surrendered to the Sultan, he would comply with some of their demands. Herzl also tried to show the West that Turkey was in fact more humane, that it had no choice but to deal with the Armenian revolt this way, and that it aspired to a ceasefire and a political arrangement. After much effort, he also met with the Sultan on May 17, 1901.

    The Sultan hoped that Herzl, a well-known journalist, would be able to alter the Ottoman Empire’s negative image. And so Herzl launched an intensive campaign to fulfill the Sultan’s wish, casting himself as a mediator for peace. He established ties with and held secret meetings with the Armenian rebels, in an attempt to get them to stop the violence, but they were not convinced of his sincerity, and did not trust the Sultan’s promises. Herzl also made energetic attempts to this effect in diplomatic channels in Europe, which he was very familiar with.

    As was his way, he did not consult with other Zionist movement leaders, and kept his activities secret. But in need of some assistance, he wrote to Max Nordau to try to recruit him for the mission as well. Nordau responded with a one-word telegram: “No.” In his eagerness to obtain the charter for Palestine from the Turks, Herzl publicly declared — after the start of the yearly Zionist Congresses — that the Zionist movement expresses its admiration and gratitude to the Sultan, despite opposition from some representatives.

    Herzl’s chief opponent on this was Bernard Lazare, a French Jewish intellectual, leftist, well-known journalist and literary critic, who had fought prominently against the Dreyfus trial, and was a supporter of the Armenian cause. He was so incensed by Herzl’s activity that he resigned from the Zionist Committee and abandoned the movement altogether in 1899. Lazare published an open letter to Herzl in which he asked: How can those who purport to represent the ancient people whose history is written in blood extend a welcoming hand to murderers, and no delegate to the Zionist Congress rises up in protest?

    This drama involving Herzl — a leader who subordinated humanitarian considerations and served the Turkish authorities for the sake of the ideal of the Jewish state — is just one illustration of the frequent clash between political goals and moral principles. Israel has repeatedly been faced with such tragic dilemmas, as evidenced in its long-standing position of not officially recognizing the Armenian genocide, as well as in other more recent decisions that reflect the tension between humanitarian values and realpolitik considerations.

    The writer is professor emeritus of history of education and culture at Hebrew University.
    Last edited by freakyfreaky; 05-26-2015, 10:04 PM.
    Between childhood, boyhood,
    adolescence
    & manhood (maturity) there
    should be sharp lines drawn w/
    Tests, deaths, feats, rites
    stories, songs & judgements

    - Morrison, Jim. Wilderness, vol. 1, p. 22

  • #2
    Re: Zionists: Anti-Armenian since the 1890s

    Why Should We Armenians Want Zionists to `Recognize' Us?

    13:39, January 4, 2016
    By Markar Melkonian


    "Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel,
    to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn
    them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the
    feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us
    crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and
    there, I don't care. And I don't mind if after the job is done you put
    me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if
    you want, as a war criminal..."
    These are the words of Ariel Sharon, from an interview published in
    the Israeli daily Davar, 17 December 1982.

    At the time he made these remarks he was the Minister of Defense of
    Israel. In that capacity, he presided over the slaughter of 17,000
    civilians in Lebanon, among them Armenians, as well as the massacre of
    thousands of unarmed civilians, many of them women and children, in
    the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps just outside of Beirut. Sixteen
    years later, he would be elected Prime Minister of Israel. On 18 April
    2002, U.S. President George Bush praised Sharon as `a man of peace.'

    The present Prime Minister of Israel, Benyamin Netanyahu, is widely
    considered to be more of a `hard-liner' than Sharon. Under his
    leadership, the Zionist military has: subjected the densely populated
    Gaza Strip to incessant bombardment at the cost of thousands of
    civilian lives; subjected millions of people who have been under
    military occupation for more than half a century to collective
    punishment; and lied American taxpayers into a trillion-dollar war in
    Iraq that has so far resulted in well over one million deaths, and
    turned the lives of tens of millions of children into a living hell.

    Thoughtful people might pause to consider what kind of a country would
    elect monsters like Netanyahu, Sharon, and Menachem Begin to their
    highest office.

    In addition to serving as Prime Minister, Netanyahu also serves as a
    member of the Zionist legislature, the Knesset. It is under these
    circumstances that a delegation from the Armenian National Assembly
    paid a visit to Jerusalem and Tel Aviv on December 12 to 14. The
    purpose of the delegation's visit, we were told, was to urge members
    of the Knesset to `recognize' the Armenian Genocide. The Armenian
    delegation announced that Israel and Armenia, together with `the
    international community,' must `continue their struggle to prevent
    crimes against humanity.'

    For informed and decent people in `the international community,' the
    overriding message that this visit conveyed was the cretinism and
    hypocrisy of Armenian officialdom.

    Armenia and Israel: Not Much in Common:

    The National Assembly delegation's advertised humanitarian aim in Tel
    Aviv is worse than garbled. Here are several of the ways that this is
    so:

    --For one thing, Israel has never SURVIVED genocide, for the simple
    reason that Israelis have never UNDERGONE genocide. Jewish people, of
    course, were subject to a horrendous, genocidal campaign of
    annihilation perpetrated by the German fascists. We bow our heads to
    honor the victims of the Holocaust, and the tens of millions of
    Russians and other victims, too. We must never forget them, and we
    must guard against those who would trivialize Hitler's crimes.

    But most Jews are not Israelis, and more than 60% of Israeli Jews,
    including the Mizrahim, trace their ancestry back generations to lands
    thousands of miles distant from the European theatre of WWII. In any
    case, the lesson holds for Israelis as it does for Armenians and
    everyone else: it is indecent to rationalize ethnic cleansing by
    pointing to past victimhood.

    For people who are not steeped in Chosen People mythology, racial
    arguments for the `right of return' to any land should be no more
    convincing than religious arguments. The relevant principle (in
    Palestine and in Mountainous Karabagh, too) should be
    SELF-DETERMINATION, not genetics or religious arguments. But even if
    we were to accept the Zionists' own racial suppositions, they still
    lose the argument: molecular geneticists report that Palestinians
    have as much claim to be genetic descendants of the ancient Israelites
    as do Israeli Jews.

    --For another thing, the Republic of Armenia and Israel are two very
    different polities: Israel is a colonial settler state, and Armenia
    is not. Like the Afrikaners of South Africa, Israelis are a modern
    nation of settlers and descendants of settlers who founded a garrison
    state.

    By concocting far-fetched parallels between Armenia and Israel, the
    small and diminishing number of Armenian Friends of Israel lend a
    helping hand to Turkish nationalists who propagate the lie that
    Armenians are interlopers, with nothing but a mythological connection
    to the land of Armenia. This is strikingly similar to Zionist
    mythology, which depicts Palestinians as recent interlopers in the
    Land of Israel. The truth is that Armenians--unlike most Israeli
    Jews, but very much like Palestinians--are not a PRODUCT of foreign
    colonial domination; rather, they have ENDURED foreign colonial
    domination.

    --Israel is a garrison-state, and Armenia is not. An imperial power
    lavishly subsidizes Israel as a remote-control device, to control the
    resources, markets, and populations of a strategically crucial region.
    American taxpayers subsidize luxury housing for foreign settlers on
    stolen Palestinian land. Israelis receive billions of dollars of U.S.
    aid annually, as well as credits, tax-deductible contributions,
    technology transfers, the protection of the Sixth Fleet, and
    unqualified diplomatic cover from the United States of America. (See,
    for example, Shirl McArthur, `A Conservative Estimate of Total U.S.
    Direct Aid to Israel: More Than $130 Billion,'WRMEA, Oct./Nov. 2013.)

    All of this by way of ensuring Americanimperialist domination of oil,
    the Suez canal and vast capital markets, hemming in Russia and Iran,
    and propping up local clients, notably the House of Saud, the Egyptian
    army, and corrupt regimes in the Gulf. Recognizing this, U.S.
    Secretary of State Alexander Haig described Israel as `the largest
    American aircraft carrier in the world.' When the Zionist garrison
    ceases to fulfill this function, it will cease to exist.

    Israel's Crimes against Humanity:

    As for the pretended aim to `continue their struggle to prevent crimes
    against humanity,'let us acknowledge the obvious: the Zionist regime
    is itself responsible for crimes against humanity, and these crimes
    are not limited to Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria. Tel Aviv has
    supported far-flung tyrannies, wars, and death squads, from Taiwan to
    Zaire, and from Nicaragua to Namibia and apartheid South Africa.

    Indeed, the Israeli military has armed and supported perpetrators of
    genocide. In the1980s, when even the Congress of the United States of
    America refused to provide arms to the blood-soaked Rios Montt regime
    in Guatemala, Israel stepped in to arm the Guatemalan military and the
    death squads. Up to 200,000 Guatemalans were killed by the death
    squads and the Guatemalan military, including tens of thousands under
    Rios Montt, and (as the Catholic Church and the United Nations have
    documented) tens of thousands of others have been raped and tortured.

    The Mayan people of Guatemala have committed no crime against
    Armenians. Why then should Armenian delegates fawn over those who
    helped to murder them? And in the name of `preventing crimes against
    humanity,' no less! If the National Assembly delegates were genuinely
    concerned about preventing crimes against humanity, they would have
    stayed home and condemned the Zionist regime.

    And of course, we may add nuclear blackmail to the long list of
    unprosecuted Zionist crimes against humanity. They have never signed
    a nonproliferation treaty, and they have never permitted international
    inspection of their nuclear facilities. In collaboration with their
    strategic partners and ideological twins in apartheid South Africa,
    the Zionists developed and tested nuclear weapons, and since then they
    have produced hundreds of nuclear warheads which they have deployed on
    bombers, missiles, and Dolphin II-class `Doomsday Submarines.'
    Yerevan might well be located within one of their blast zones.

    Fawning over Our Enemies:

    Zionists have time and again distinguished themselves as enemies of
    the Armenian nation. The decades of active denial of the Armenian
    genocide is the LEAST of their offenses. We know about the
    decades-long strategic alliance between Tel Aviv and Ankara, and the
    ongoing military aid and intelligence that Tel Aviv has provided to
    the Republic of Azerbaijan. There is much more to say about this, but
    no room here. Instead, let us note several lesser-known
    considerations:

    --Zionist collaboration with Turkish ethnic cleansers goes back to the
    earliest days of the modern Zionist movement: according to an entry
    in the diary of Theodore Herzl (an entry dated August 30, 1899), for
    example, the founder of modern Zionism intervened `to muffle the
    Armenian business' in the European press, in the wake of the massacres
    of the 1890's. (For more about the relationship between the early
    Zionists and the Ottoman Sublime Port, refer to Marwan R. Buheiry,
    `Theodor Herzl and the Armenian Question,' in Journal of Palestine
    Studies, Vol. 7, No. 1 (Autumn, 1977); Yair Auron, The Banality of
    Denial: Israel and the Armenian Genocide (2003).)

    --Zionist occupation has destroyed the ancient Armenian Quarter of
    Jerusalem. For more than sixteen centuries, the Armenian community in
    Jerusalem managed to survive invasions, crusades, and colonial
    domination, but seventy years of Zionist occupation, confiscation, and
    oppression has all but eliminated our ancient presence in the Holy
    Land. One hundred years ago, the Armenian community of Jerusalem
    consisted of perhaps 20,000 members. After the occupation of East
    Jerusalem in 1967, those numbers have dwindled, until today the
    community consists of only several hundred members.
    Hayastan or Bust.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Zionists: Anti-Armenian since the 1890s

      The Armenians of Palestine do not want to be under Zionist occupation.
      Yasser Arafat, the late Chairman of the Palestine Liberation
      Organization, was expressing a widespread wish among Armenians in
      Palestine when, at the 2000 Camp David Summit, he rejected an American
      proposal to put the Armenian Quarter of Jerusalem under Zionist
      authority. `My name is not Yasser Arafat,' he said, `It is Yasser
      Arafatian.'"I will not betray my Armenian brothers."

      --Zionist occupiers treat Palestinian Armenians with the same contempt
      that they treat other Palestinians. Settlers regularly insult
      Armenians, desecrate religious sites, physically attack the clergy,
      and spit on priests.

      On occasion they have done much worse. The siege of the Church of the
      Nativity in Bethlehem from April 2 to May 10, 2002 is just one of many
      outrages against besieged Christians in Palestine. For thirty-nine
      days, the Zionist army laid siege to one of the holiest sites of
      Christianity, under the pretext of searching for `suspected
      Palestinian militants.'(All of this, aside from the fact that even if
      these `suspected militants' were in fact militants, they were entirely
      within their rights, under international law and the Geneva
      convention, to resist occupation of their land by a foreign invader.)
      During the siege, Israeli Army snipers killed seven persons seeking
      refuge inside the church; on April 4, they shot the bellringer of the
      Church, and on April 10, they shot an Armenian monk in the church.

      --Over the decades, Tel Aviv's warmongers, operating with the impunity
      of superpower protection, have destroyed homes and lives and
      depopulated Armenian neighborhoods in Lebanon and Syria. They have
      fomented civil wars that have gutted Armenian communities, and they
      set the stage for wars in Iraq and Syria that have annihilated ancient
      Christian communities in these countries.

      Our `Clever' Fools:

      One might think that moral and legal arguments (for what little they
      may otherwise be worth) should be paramount when it comes to making a
      case for genocide recognition. If so, then such considerations should
      stand on their own, without getting mixed up with considerations of
      diplomatic advantage. But of course there are practical
      considerations, too. And these, too, demonstrate the foolishness of
      the Armenian delegation's errand.

      The Zionists and their masters in Washington have set in motion wars
      in Iraq, Libya and Syria'wars that have already claimed as many lives
      as the Armenian genocide. They and their surrogates have created
      millions of refugees and turned the lives of tens of millions of
      children into a living hell. They have successfully fomented murderous
      Wahhabi hatred of Shiite Muslims, and over the past several years we
      have witnessed them step-by-step setting the stage for the emergence
      of Daesh.

      And now, having succeeded in their strategic aim to destroy every Arab
      army that was able and willing to defend its territory against their
      aggression, they now turn their attention to Iran. The Zionists and
      their neocon confederates in Washington want war with Iran. And so do
      their strategic allies in Ankara.

      No wonder, then, thatyear after year, opinion polls have confirmed
      that Israel is one of the most hated countries on Earth. In Latin
      America, Russia, India, and China, large majorities of respondents to
      recent public opinion polls express `negative views' of Israel.
      Europeans, on the whole, dislike Zionism and Zionists, and over years
      the antipathy has only increased. Even in the super-tolerant
      Scandinavian countries there is widespread disgust with their impunity
      and duplicity. Indeed, even in the thoroughly indoctrinated United
      States of America, one third of the respondents to recent public
      opinion polls have expressed a `negative view' of Israel.

      In the course of committing one atrocity after another over the course
      of decades, Zionist leaders have beenpoisoning the well for future
      generations of Israelis. America will not remain the sole undisputed
      superpower forever. Unfortunately, it appears more and more likely
      that when the American empire wanes, Israelis will follow the
      Pieds-noirs of Algeria onto ships and airplanes and into oblivion.
      People who care about Armenia most assuredly should not take
      inspiration from the brutal--and ultimately doomed--Zionist project.

      The Armenian delegates met with members of the Knesset, in their
      official capacity as functionaries of the Zionist garrison state. To
      portray this visit as `non-political' is dishonest and naïve. Their
      errand is absurd on the face of it: to beg functionaries of a brutal,
      genocidal regime to `recognize' a genocide! What is it that these
      unelecteddelegatesthink they are doing? Do they think they're being
      modern and clever? What message exactly do they think they are
      sending?

      The Armenian delegates have sullied the reputation of the Armenian
      nation and brought a disgraceful end to a year that might otherwise
      have had a redeeming significance. The last thing decent Armenians
      want is for the legislature of a brutal garrison state to `recognize'
      the Armenian genocide. The National Assembly Committee has wasted the
      resources of an underfunded state to jeopardize the good will of our
      most helpful allies, neighbors, and trading partners.

      There are some Armenians who care more about the welfare and dignity
      of our nation than jumping through hoops for the entertainment of a
      distant imperialist power. It is time these Armenians raise their
      voices, to demand that the Republic of Armenia abide by the
      international cultural boycott of the Zionist regime.

      Markar Melkonian is a philosophy instructor and an author. His books
      include Richard Rorty's Politics: Liberalism at the End of the
      American Century (1999), Marxism: A Post-Cold War Primer (Westview
      Press, 1996), and My Brother's Road (2005).

      Hayastan or Bust.

      Comment

      Working...
      X