The official GANGSTA-wanna-be thread (list your fave AC members)

[djsinister]

BTW, some intelligent rap artists:

Chuck D (Public Enemy)
Common
The Roots
Goodie Mob
Ras Kass
Saafir
KRS-One
Master Ace
Kam
Jeru The Damaja
Sho
Willie D
Stetsasonic
Just-Ice
Poor Rigteous Teachers
Confrontation Camp
Sister Souljah

......

BTW, I don't want this to turn into a hip-hop bashing thread. Hip hop is a culture and a way of life for many people on this planet. It encompasses the following: rap music, grafitti art, breakdancing, dee-jaying, style of wear, etc...) HipHop is not a form of music. It is a culture, which amongst the aforementioned list, also includes RAP music.

And I don't want this to turn into a black bashing thread either. I have never been a racist, and quite frankly, cannot tolerate it (I have enough problems dealing with it amongst my own family, and some members of our Armo community..........but that's an entirely different topic).

Throughout time, whites have always tried to emulate and eventually steal from black culture. Look at rock music as the perfect example. So, let's not begin to talk about blacks themselves being the problem. They are not the problem.

The thing is, commercial rap music (& mainstream hip-hop culture) in 2004 is a money-making tool, that successfully attempts to reel in the young suburban consumer (ie: white kids). Most of the albums that are sold are primarily to white kids who can afford them. These $100 FUBU sweaters are being bought by white kids. The Sean John apparel is being marketed to white kids. Courvoisier, Tommy Hilfiger, 24' chromes, etc... are being sold to the ever so impressionable young suburbanites.

And the rap artists are laughing, as our kids suck it up. Trust me, they are laughing!!!!!!!! The owners of FUBU have hundreds of millions saved in the bank (BTW, FUBU stands for "for us, by us"....us=blacks). Yet, it is whitey that buys it. I used to work in a record shop (HMV) for almost 5 years. I noticed alot of ethnics, including armos, begin to "notice" rap music around the time of the 2Pac/Biggie murders and controversy in 1995. Ironically, this was around the time I began losing my interest in RAP music, after I had vowed that I would NEVER listen to another form of music again.

P.Diddy & Suge Knight were the big winners of that giant 2Pac/Biggie fiasco. Every white kid now REALLY wanted to emulate!!!!! Every white kid was throwing up gang signs, and throwing up the big W (a hand sign that LA gang members would use to represent the "west coast"). Kids in Russia were throwing up W's, without the fondest clue of what it meant. And the smart business man that Puffy is, he banked in!! He owns Sean John. He is a billionaire! And many other rap artists, producers, record label owners, ......all banked in.

And i don't blame people like P Diddy. I applaud them, because their great grand-children will be set for life. I blame our parents, who are clueless and not hip to what their children are into!!!!

My parents were very strict, and although they were not "hip" per se, they still instilled enough fear (and Armenian Pride) in me that, even though I snuck in the new NWA or 2 Live Crew or Eazy-E albums, I would still have enough respect to honour my parents, my culture, my history, my teachers, my peers.......and myself. I knew that this was simply music, nothing more nothing less. Yes, there were rappers and rap groups that were violent & graphic (Geto Boys, Scarface, CMW and Ice-T, who happens to be a very intelligent rapper, save some of his material), but somehow I knew that it was fantasy, hence it didn't phase me. It fascinated me perhaps, but that's it. Perhaps it made me "harder" with respect to my attitude and outlook on life in general. But, I still knew my values.

I have enough black friends to know that nothing makes a black person laugh more than a white kid calling another white kid, "nigga". That makes them crack-up at how stupid some "whitey" kids are.

And all blacks should be given an award for having been able to take an extremely offensive word (nigger), and turn it into a hip, money-making machine!! Bravo!

[SagGal]

Don't be proud of not being able to get in on the joke properly.

I did get in on the joke properly. I got in and got out. Put a sock in it Pat.

[Virgil]

First of all "homey" you are "white". If you have a "problem" with being "white" then you need to take your advise because, no, my friend, Armenians are not "black". So, by you trying to imply that "whites" are ridculously stupid when they emulate "black culture" then you are refering to yourself as well.

Its funny how you try to make excuses for the "black community", but yet fail to realize that by using the word "Armo", which you did use, you are indirectly making it ok to call one another "Armo".

Now, before you ask me what this has to do with it, let me explain. See when you, as a Armenian, listen to rap, you find it ok to call one another "Armos" because you think because "black people" feel it is ok to call one another "niggas" then it most be ok to call one another "Armos" based on the backwards logic that just because the person you are communicating with is of the same race, nationality, and ethnicity, it must be ok to refer to them by using a racial slur.

In my post, when I was stating how "hip-hop" culture is degenerative this is what I was referring to. Furthermore, I still do not understand how you can actually equate "rap music, grafitti art, breakdancing, dee-jaying, and style of wear" into a culture? First of all, I do not consider anything that is shown on a "MTV" a culture. If it is labeled as a culture it should be adequetly labeled as a "pop-culture", but please do not imply that it is the equivalent of a actually culture (I.E. Armenian Culture).

Furthermore, yes, rap or hip-hop, is not a socially progressive culture (for the sake of argument). IF you want to progress socially you have to emulate anything but "black" culture. Now, you may consider me a "racist" and to be honest I could care less because, frankly, everyone is racist and to say that you are not racist would be the equivalent of saying that you no preferences, but like I stated earlier you WILL NEVER amount to a doctor by emulating stoners.

I have enough black friends to know that nothing makes a black person laugh more than a white kid calling another white kid, "nigga". That makes them crack-up at how stupid some "whitey" kids are.

Wow, you must be a "black man" trapped in a "white mans" body because you are either blind to the fact that Armenians are "white" or must really hate yourself because Armenians are legally, historically, and socially considered "white". Unless, you want to change your legal status to a minority, then, no, Armenians are will never be "black" nor can they relate to the "black man" laughing at the "white man" because "laughing" at poor old "whitey" is the equavalent of laughing at a Armenian.

And all blacks should be given an award for having been able to take an extremely offensive word (nigger), and turn it into a hip, money-making machine!! Bravo!

Yeah, that is why prominant African-Americans are ashamed to associate themselves with "black people". You are honestly suggesting that it is ok for African-Americans to make a fool of themselves by calling themselves the word "nigger" when in fact their ancestors struggled for 300 years to avoid being called a dumb nigger? Are you really that socially deprived and blind to actually think that by calling one another a Armo, nigger, chink, gouke, kike, and [insert racial slur here] is ok because it can make you money? Hell, if making a fool out of yourself and making it ok for a person of another ethnicity to call you a dumb armo is ok as long as it makes you cash, then, why the xxxx don't you extend the same standard to a Turk. I am sure they would love to pay a Armenian to make a fool himself. Anyways, what your suggesting is not "progession" it is "stupidity" and for you as a Armenian to actually think that a few "rappers" hold the key to success when in fact the majority of African-Americans are in social decline then you are truly blind because socially progression will not happen by dancing around like a monkey.

Social progression is what the Japanese, Jews, Germans, Russians, Chinese, Koreans, French, Swiss, and English have achieved, which is to pratically influence economic, social, and political shifts on the world stage. Last time I checked no African nation has ever "influenced" world powers nor have they ever amounted to anything significant and for you to put them on the pedistal and worship them is the equivalent of social decline on the world stage.

[HyeJinx1984]

What ever happened to Sean88? he was fun

[djsinister]

First of all "homey" you are "white". If you have a "problem" with being "white" then you need to take your advise because, no, my friend, Armenians are not "black". So, by you trying to imply that "whites" are ridculously stupid when they emulate "black culture" then you are refering to yourself as well.

Its funny how you try to make excuses for the "black community", but yet fail to realize that by using the word "Armo", which you did use, you are indirectly making it ok to call one another "Armo".

Now, before you ask me what this has to do with it, let me explain. See when you, as a Armenian, listen to rap, you find it ok to call one another "Armos" because you think because "black people" feel it is ok to call one another "niggas" then it most be ok to call one another "Armos" based on the backwards logic that just because the person you are communicating with is of the same race, nationality, and ethnicity, it must be ok to refer to them by using a racial slur.

In my post, when I was stating how "hip-hop" culture is degenerative this is what I was referring to. Furthermore, I still do not understand how you can actually equate "rap music, grafitti art, breakdancing, dee-jaying, and style of wear" into a culture? First of all, I do not consider anything that is shown on a "MTV" a culture. If it is labeled as a culture it should be adequetly labeled as a "pop-culture", but please do not imply that it is the equivalent of a actually culture (I.E. Armenian Culture).

Furthermore, yes, rap or hip-hop, is not a socially progressive culture (for the sake of argument). IF you want to progress socially you have to emulate anything but "black" culture. Now, you may consider me a "racist" and to be honest I could care less because, frankly, everyone is racist and to say that you are not racist would be the equivalent of saying that you no preferences, but like I stated earlier you WILL NEVER amount to a doctor by emulating stoners.




Wow, you must be a "black man" trapped in a "white mans" body because you are either blind to the fact that Armenians are "white" or must really hate yourself because Armenians are legally, historically, and socially considered "white". Unless, you want to change your legal status to a minority, then, no, Armenians are will never be "black" nor can they relate to the "black man" laughing at the "white man" because "laughing" at poor old "whitey" is the equavalent of laughing at a Armenian.



Yeah, that is why prominant African-Americans are ashamed to associate themselves with "black people". You are honestly suggesting that it is ok for African-Americans to make a fool of themselves by calling themselves the word "nigger" when in fact their ancestors struggled for 300 years to avoid being called a dumb nigger? Are you really that socially deprived and blind to actually think that by calling one another a Armo, nigger, chink, gouke, kike, and [insert racial slur here] is ok because it can make you money? Hell, if making a fool out of yourself and making it ok for a person of another ethnicity to call you a dumb armo is ok as long as it makes you cash, then, why the xxxx don't you extend the same standard to a Turk. I am sure they would love to pay a Armenian to make a fool himself. Anyways, what your suggesting is not "progession" it is "stupidity" and for you as a Armenian to actually think that a few "rappers" hold the key to success when in fact the majority of African-Americans are in social decline then you are truly blind because socially progression will not happen by dancing around like a monkey.

Social progression is what the Japanese, Jews, Germans, Russians, Chinese, Koreans, French, Swiss, and English have achieved, which is to pratically influence economic, social, and political shifts on the world stage. Last time I checked no African nation has ever "influenced" world powers nor have they ever amounted to anything significant and for you to put them on the pedistal and worship them is the equivalent of social decline on the world stage.

BTW, it's homie! Not Homey..LOL

I am responding to your statement paragraph by paragraph (BTW, I appreciate your points of view...and great arguments)

With all due respect,

Now, there is a difference between people emulating and appreciating! Big difference!

I never questioned the fact that I'm white...And I have nothing to prove, I am very proud and devoted Armenian.

There is a difference between the terms Armo and nigger. One is derogatory. I never knew that "Armo" is a derogatory term. Is Italo derogatory?? In my neck of the woods it isn't...

You are saying that I to am an emulator as well/ then I invite you to compare my profile with that of, for example, Sexaychicka's (who I think is a perfect example of emulator), and tell me how they are alike. Because, she definitely emulates (I don't mean to clamp down on her, but her profile is the only one that comes to mind right now).

Your 3rd paragraph makes absolutely no sense. Firstly, I don't listen to rap as often as you think I do. But let's just say I did listen to it every single day..................
How are you able to correlate the use of the term armo with that of nigger. You are implying that I use the word Armo with Armenians (this is the first time I used it BTW), just because "blacks call themselves nigger", so it's OK for me to use it??????!!!. I never said anything remotely close to that!!!???? Your making things up.

Hip-Hop culture, and Armenian culture (or any other ethnicity) are 2 completely different things. One "culture" is artistic, while the other refers to a people, a complete race of people. Two different things altogether. The 3-word term "hip hop culture" has been coined that way for the longest time. Look up "hip hop culture" in that order of wording and see how many results you get on Google. Now if you cannot differentiate between an artistic culture and that of an ethnic race, then that's not my problem.

And the seeds of hip hop culture were sewn way before MTV, in the late 70's and early 80's....So you are incorrect by stating that it is not a culture. It is indeed a culture,..an artistic one at that.

BTW, there are some people who are NOT racists. If you are a devout and true Christian, then racism has no place in your life. I have nothing to prove to you.

And I have been working successfully in the medical field as a health-care professional for the last 5 years...............(so someone who emulates "stoners" as you suggest CAN indeed become a doctor....) Although I don't emulate (I appreciate, always have), and I don't consider these artists as "stoners". I never said that either.

I don't hate myself (never ever did......I still can't believe the gall of some of your empty accusations).

I also never suggested that blacks think it's Ok to call themselves nigger. THEY THEMSELVES HAVE SAID IT on many many many occasions over the years. Now the term "they" is obviously a loose term, as many (especially) older afro-americans are against this word. But to my knowledge and experience, the majority of younger blacks (not all of course) do use the term very lightly (nigga=brother=partner=homie=man=etc....). I've had alot of my black friends call me "nigga" on many occasions ("wassup nigga how you been?"). In response, I have never returned the favour...It's as if the word doesn't mean a whole lot anymore, like it used to before the 70's. I've heard many respected black entertainers like Richard Pryor,Chuck D & KRS-One suggest that it is like reverse psychology. Their belief and argument is that racists will have to come up with newer terms, because "nigger" holds no more weight. Their philosphy is: How can they hurt us with a word that no longer means much to us...

Blacks fully understand the struggle of over 400 years (BTW)....I also never implied that they SIMPLY use the word to make $$$$. Blacks in the entertainment business make $$$ from everything else that I mentioned. I was trying to imply that they are making easy money with the whole superficiality of this entire conglomerate of things (I should have been more clear on that last sentence. i shouldn't have JUST used the that term...my wrong)...

thanks.

PS: big difference between "nigga" and "nigger".....

[Virgil]

BTW, it's homie! Not Homey..LOL

Ok, "homie" thanks for the adequetly correcting my use of ebonics.

There is a difference between the terms Armo and nigger. One is derogatory. I never knew that "Armo" is a derogatory term. Is Italo derogatory?? In my neck of the woods it isn't...

NO, there is no difference. First of all, the deragotory term for a Italian is WOP (Without papers). The term was used early in the 20 century during the height of European immigration because most Italian immigrants came to this country "without papers". Now, if you think about calling a Italian "without papers" doesn't seem "offensive", equally, calling anyone a kike, guke, chink, nip, jap, phlipp, nazi, nigger, Armo, and other racial slurs, technically, does not constitute anything. However, that does not mean that they are not "deragatory" words because the very act of calling a Italian WOP is considered racist and in fact, is used in that context. If we you use your logic then using the word F U C K is ok because it only means "having sex", but the very vulgur tone and the context it is being used in makes the word a "bad word".

How are you able to correlate the use of the term armo with that of nigger. You are implying that I use the word Armo with Armenians (this is the first time I used it BTW), just because "blacks call themselves nigger", so it's OK for me to use it??????!!!. I never said anything remotely close to that!!!???? Your making things up.

Am I really making things up? Really think about it for a second. If you used the word Armo ten years ago I am pretty sure the Armenian youth would take offensive, but today, the word is being used on a daily basis. Now, you may try to convince me that "rap" has nothing to do with, but I know better than that. The only reason you or the rest of "Armo" crowd find using the word Armo "ok" is directly because some black rapper thinks it is ok to call another black rapper a "nigger". However, I dare you to find a Jew that is ok with calling another a Jew a "kike". See in order for others to respect you need to start respecting yourself and by you making it "ok" to use the word Armo to describe a Armenian then later on you will find more and more Non-Armenians using the word to describe a Armenian. Instead, if you want respect you should demand it and demanding it starts with you having enough respect for your "roots" and actually taking a half second more to call yourself "Armenian" instead of a "Armo".

Hip-Hop culture, and Armenian culture (or any other ethnicity) are 2 completely different things. One "culture" is artistic, while the other refers to a people, a complete race of people. Two different things altogether. The 3-word term "hip hop culture" has been coined that way for the longest time. Look up "hip hop culture" in that order of wording and see how many results you get on Google. Now if you cannot differentiate between an artistic culture and that of an ethnic race, then that's not my problem.

Fine, if you consider "Grafitti", "breakdancing", and "DJing" a culture, so be it, but I WILL never consider this a culture and please don't insult my intelligence, I can differentiate the two, but I just don't consider it a "culture".

And the seeds of hip hop culture were sewn way before MTV, in the late 70's and early 80's....So you are incorrect by stating that it is not a culture. It is indeed a culture,..an artistic one at that.

Let me ask you, how was this a "artform"? What is Hip-hop creating? Really think about it for second how is using the same backbeat, but just slightly editing the vocals a "culture"? Yes, it did originate from the streets, but just because it originated from the streets does not mean it is "culture". Sorry, I just don't think it is culture. IF you think 2pac, Snoop Dog, Dr. Dre. and the rest of the so-called rappers of the 90's are contributing to "culture" then you really need think about what a culture truly is. How can it be a "culture" when it can not evolve?

BTW, there are some people who are NOT racists. If you are a devout and true Christian, then racism has no place in your life. I have nothing to prove to you.

NO, I am not a Christian. I am agnostic, which means that I believe in somthing beyond death, but I do not follow a certain religious creed. However, since I am Armenian I can not avoid the influences of Christianity on my daily life. I feel that religion is important because it does shape who you are, but if you just mindlessly believe in it then eventually it will dictate your life and, frankly, I already have more factors dictating my life and don't more.

Futhermore, religion contridicts it self. For instance, if indeed God is this "holier than thou" firgure then why does he or she employ avenging angles like Gabriel and Michael? Why does God need to seek "revenge" if he in fact is a benevalent God? The way I see it is that God himself is not as stupid as to discard ALL the options in front of him. God is ruthless when he needs to be ruthlessa and is benevalent when he needs to be benevalent, so, to assume that humans have to be "good" when in fact God is anything but "good" is a bit hypocritical and self-defeating.

Sorry, if I went off topic, but since you brought God into it I decided to expand on it a bit.

And I have been working successfully in the medical field as a health-care professional for the last 5 years...............(so someone who emulates "stoners" as you suggest CAN indeed become a doctor....) Although I don't emulate (I appreciate, always have), and I don't consider these artists as "stoners". I never said that either.

I do not know you in real life, so, I can not comment on your acheivments. Also, saying that you are in the health care field can equite to many things, so, I doubt you are a "doctor". However, there are exceptions to every rule, which is why I am not going to break your balls on this one, but in general, if you "hang around" with individuals that have no goals you it will eventually rub off on you. Now, I know that most of you will say "no, it doesnt", but we all know better then that. I do not care who you are, but if you hand around a avid herion users studies suggest that you will eventually become one, so, to assume that your social circle has no bearing on your future is bit a ridiculous. EVERYTHING you do represents who you are as a person. From the friends you have to the car you drive, now, I am not saying that this is a "good thing", but in general the first thing people notice is your image not your risidual self-image. What I mean risidual self-image is the image you want to portray. In general, people tend to have their own mold of you just based on your image and hanging around stoners or losers in general will always push you in that camp.

I also never suggested that blacks think it's Ok to call themselves nigger. THEY THEMSELVES HAVE SAID IT on many many many occasions over the years. Now the term "they" is obviously a loose term, as many (especially) older afro-americans are against this word. But to my knowledge and experience, the majority of younger blacks (not all of course) do use the term very lightly (nigga=brother=partner=homie=man=etc....). I've had alot of my black friends call me "nigga" on many occasions ("wassup nigga how you been?"). In response, I have never returned the favour...It's as if the word doesn't mean a whole lot anymore, like it used to before the 70's. I've heard many respected black entertainers like Richard Pryor,Chuck D & KRS-One suggest that it is like reverse psychology. Their belief and argument is that racists will have to come up with newer terms, because "nigger" holds no more weight. Their philosphy is: How can they hurt us with a word that no longer means much to us...

Sorry, I do not want to be rude and I hope you understand that differences in opinion tends to bring people together, but I have to call bullxxxx on this one. First of all, most of the "rappers" use the word "nigga" more often then the word "African-American", now, you may think that this "ok", but it is truly sad how their ancestors struggled for years so that a white man would have enough respect to refer to them as a African-Americans, thus, their equal.

Just because KRS, Chuck D, and Richard Prior, who are anything but "respected" African-Americans think it is ok to use the word "nigga"
does not make it ok to use the word "nigga". I do not consider them "respected" African-Americans seeing as to how they are not educated and thus, not part of the African-American elite and intellecutals. If somone like Bill Cosby was to say that using the word "nigga" was ok, then, yes, I would not care, but respect African-Americans like Bill Cosby condemn the word "nigga" because it places them below the "white man", hence, taking everything that African-Americans struggled for down the drain.

I do not know if you read the article I posted here a while back, but you should check it out. If you can not find it please let me know and I can PM it to you. Anyways, Bill Cosby talks about this very same subject and I think you would find what he has to say about the African-American community directly parallels the actions of the Armenian community. For instance, Armenians can offord nice cars and homes, but yet put their kids to work in order to attain these luxories. The youth finds it ok to pay 500 dollor car payments, but yet resent paying for tuition, books, and in general a eduaction.

Blacks fully understand the struggle of over 400 years (BTW)....I also never implied that they SIMPLY use the word to make $$$$. Blacks in the entertainment business make $$$ from everything else that I mentioned. I was trying to imply that they are making easy money with the whole superficiality of this entire conglomerate of things (I should have been more clear on that last sentence. i shouldn't have JUST used the that term...my wrong)...

Well, yes, a few "blacks" are making money off the image of African-Americans, but yet what image are they portraying? DO you honestly think the messages of these rappers does not affect their communties? You have the youth using words like "xxxxx" or "xxxxx" To refer to woman, now, you may think I am "generalizing", but it is the truth. Latly, this kind of "backwardness" is beginning to infiltrate the Armenian community in which you have Armenian guys refering to Armenian girls as "xxxxxs" or you have Armenian girls buying into the "bling bling" ghetto fabulos image. If you think I am xxxxing with you then by all means come down Los Angeles and you will see MANY Armenians emulating black culture.

big difference between "nigga" and "nigger".....

NO, just because you attach "a" at the end because you can not pronounce "nigger" does not meant it makes a difference. The fact remains that "nigga" refers to "nigger", but because they have used it for so long it has become the equivalent of calling somone a "African-American". I would like to make sure you do not buy into the excuses made by the rappers. They make money by exploiting their own kind and if it was not African-Americans like Bill Cosby I would totally lose respect for them. I just hope Armenians don't adopt the victim mentality to the point of blaming everything on others. Yes, it is true Armenians have a tragic past, but let us at least make a better future for descendents. Instead of relating to groups that have not amounted to anything significant EVER let us look towards groups that have amounted to somthing and learn from them.

Oh, don't take this personally, I respect your opinion and have nothing against it. Hell, I just reply because if I don't no one will either because they are scared or don't know any better, peace.

[djsinister]

Much respect to your comments and opinions Virgil. We definitely have different viewpoints..

And, yes, I know that amongst other things, Bill Cosby is an avid anti-"n-word" advocate...

I like Bill Cosby and i honestly understand his viewpoints. I actually have no problems with his standpoint. The bottom-line is that alot of younger blacks unfortunately don't look up to stalwarts like Cosby anymore. But, key players like Chuck D, Spike Lee, Russell Simmons, P-Diddy, and KRS (who are the forefathers of new-school rap and hip-hop culture) have the highest respect for Bill Cosby. They have never said anything against Cosby. It's just that they know more about what black youth are going through right now. They are more hip to what their youth are thinking...These are the new black intellectuals. They are the ones who are replacing Frantz Fanon, Marcus Garvey, W.E.B. du Bois, Black Panther Party, Angela Davis, Malcolm X, H Rap Brown, etc.....

The same thing goes for Diane Warwick, who also spoke out against rap about 12 years ago if i'm not mistaken. Everyone just passed her off as a senial old woman.....

I invite you to do a search on Chuck D of Public Enemy (if you want to), and you'll see what i mean.

BTW, I'm a physiotherapist, only because I chose to be one.

Peace.

[MadHandle]

BTW, some intelligent rap artists:

Chuck D (Public Enemy)
Common
The Roots
Goodie Mob
Ras Kass
Saafir
KRS-One
Master Ace
Kam
Jeru The Damaja
Sho
Willie D
Stetsasonic
Just-Ice
Poor Rigteous Teachers
Confrontation Camp
Sister Souljah

......

you need an update...whatever happened to Immortal Technique, dilated peoples, mf doom(or whatever he calls himself now...), oddities, Mad Skillz, canibus, jedi mind tricks, and maybe even talkib kweli, mos def and nas...

[HyeJinx1984]

Damn, where tha love? And add Krayzie bone to that list! He ma' Nigga!

[djsinister]

you need an update...whatever happened to Immortal Technique, dilated peoples, mf doom(or whatever he calls himself now...), oddities, Mad Skillz, canibus, jedi mind tricks, and maybe even talkib kweli, mos def and nas...

Real music is timeless...I still rock PE, Professor Griff, and BDP on the regular.

But like i said, I am not following rap as much as I used to, but I would definitely add some artists that you mentioned, and that I forgot:

Talib Kweli & Hi Tek
Mos Def
Nas (some of his material)
MF Doom

I don't know about the others. Although I own one Dilated peoples album, I don't find them to be worthy of that list. Don't get me wrong. I still find they rock (and their DJ, Babu is serious), but can't put em in the same league as Chuck D...

My 2 cents...