2nd Generation Armenian Americans anyone?

[NightOwl]

I was born in the US and so were my parents. I'm 100% Armenian. They dont speak Armenian, neither do I. I dont know too much about Armenian traditions.

Is there anyone else whos a 2nd generation or more Armenian-American?

I live in NYC and I don't meet many Armenians. The ones I do meet are all not born in the USA, I don't know any Armenians as friends so when I meet someone who is Armenian, I'm always friendly and I get a nasty response, like "F--K OFF".
I also visted Glendale, CA, not one person I met there was born in the USA. Not that I'm upset about it or theres anything wrong, but I never met anyone like myself and I'm confused. Is it very rare to be like this? Do you know anyone that is?

Also I would say Most of the Armenians I met do not like me because I cant speak the language and dont know much about the culture, I found them to be jerks and very rude. Is that common?
Also most of the Armenians I met tell me "you're not Armenian" I tell them I am and they say "there no way you can be"
I think its really ignorant.

My parents say Armenians are wonderful, nice people, but I don't see it all.

[Che_Ka]

NightOwl: I'm glad that you posted!

First, no you're not alone! There are many Armenian-Americans whose families have been here for 2 generations or longer. I have a friend here in LA who was born here and so were her parents. She can't speak Armenian, and neither can her parents. But she is very proud to be Armenian. She is taking public courses to learn the language. Her family, and I am assuming yours, came to the US directly after the Genocide. During the years immediately following the Genocide, about 100,000 Armenians came to the US. Their descendants are around -- but often, they've intermarried or assimilated, so you can't always locate them....

I wanted to point something out about other Armenians belittling you for being unable to speak the language. There were several waves of Armenian immigration to the US. The first was 1895-1920s. These were the direct Genocide survivors. From the scholarship that I have read, these first Armenians were very willing to assimilate. They didn't teach their children Armenian. Having suffered horrible things in their homeland because of being Armenian, they were very willing to 'lose' their Armenianness. Additionally, the American social environment was not very open to ethnic minorities -- there was immense social pressure to assimilate very quickly. Armenian language was the first to go.

This is in stark contrast to what was occurring in other parts of the post-Genocide Diaspora. The Armenians to fled to Syria, then to Lebanon, Iraq, etc, had a different experience. In these countries, they were welcomed with open arms. There was no pressure to assimilate. In fact, Armenians did not want to assimilate into a culture that was largely Muslim -- for obvious reasons. In these countries, Armenian parents stressed language retention, believing it was the only way to keep from assimilating. From the beginning, Armenian schools were plentiful. (Note the lack of Armenian schools in the US until Middle-East Armenians came and established them in the 1960s.)

When the Middle-East Armenians began to immigrate to the US from the 1960s and then the 1980s and onward, they brought with them the idea that Armenian language was the sole savior of the Armenian people from assimilation. They established schools. They were even successful in changing to language used by priests during the 'karoz' (sorry, don't know the English word) from English to Armenian. The children of these new Armenian immigrants grew up speaking Armenian, whether they went to Armenian school or not. They also grew up with the mentality that language is the only way to fight assimilation. And so, when the descendants of the Middle East Armenians come in contact with 2nd or 3rd generation Armenian-Americans, they are often...puzzled. "How can you be Armenian if you don't speak the language?" This is a valid question, considering the mindset of the Middle East Armenians, who have been indoctrinated with "language = identity."

I hope you can now understand why you are confronted with some hostility for not knowing the language. It's not ignorance. It's, interestingly, the result of a culture clash. And it goes to the root of the question, "What does it mean to be Armenian?" People who grew up in different places, during different times, under different circumstances have different answers to this question.

Another thing I wanted to point out. I would say that MOST Armenian-American youth were born in the US, even if their parents were born abroad. And if they weren't born here, then they immigrated at a young age. Glendale may have a higher percentage of non-US born Armenians, but that's because it is a 'gateway' of sorts for Armenian immigration. Glendale is not representative of the greater LA (or US) Armenian population. Every single one of my Armenian friends was born in the US. Every single one of our parents was born outside the US. We all speak English and Armenian.

Well, I hope I could be of help to you! I just wanted to help you understand the other side of the coin!

[Siamanto]

I was born in the US and so were my parents. I'm 100% Armenian. They dont speak Armenian, neither do I. I dont know too much about Armenian traditions.

Is there anyone else whos a 2nd generation or more Armenian-American?

I live in NYC and I don't meet many Armenians. The ones I do meet are all not born in the USA, I don't know any Armenians as friends so when I meet someone who is Armenian, I'm always friendly and I get a nasty response, like "F--K OFF".
I also visted Glendale, CA, not one person I met there was born in the USA. Not that I'm upset about it or theres anything wrong, but I never met anyone like myself and I'm confused. Is it very rare to be like this? Do you know anyone that is?

Also I would say Most of the Armenians I met do not like me because I cant speak the language and dont know much about the culture, I found them to be jerks and very rude. Is that common?
Also most of the Armenians I met tell me "you're not Armenian" I tell them I am and they say "there no way you can be"
I think its really ignorant.

My parents say Armenians are wonderful, nice people, but I don't see it all.

NightOwl,
The fact that you are willing - and are emotionally prepared - to debate such a difficult issue in public indicates that you care enough to be Armenian. That is good enough for me!
This is a very delicate subject and I apologize if anything below may sound offensive to a reader: it's not intentional!

My friends and I have wasted many nights, alcohol and cigarettes trying to define "what is Armenian?" or "The Armenian Identity." I hope that the choice of the word "wasted" made it clear that we have failed in our efforts. Most believe that we did fail because such an identity cannot be clearly and/or narrowly defined. (Myself, I think that we failed because of too much alcohol! )
Personally, I came to the conclusion that being Armenian is simply the feeling of belonging to the Armenian Nation/Society/Community! Of course, depending on the context - space/time - their has been - and may be - different expressions - i.e. external signs - of the Armenian Identity. Armenians from different countries/epochs have expressed their Armenian Identity in different ways.

The "Armenian Identity" is not a trademark and - as far as I know - no Armenian Community - including The Republic of North-Eastern Armenia - holds a Copyright.
Nobody, besides yourself, can decide your Identity. They have the right to criticize the expression - i.e. external signs - of your Identity, but they can't define it or deny it!

Speaking Armenian when one is born in an Armenian speaking "neighborhood" is not a merit; it's simply an accident. Struggling to keep alive the Armenian Identity in a foreign and "hostile" environment is worthy of praise!

"Shad agantch mi gakher!" A funny Armenian expression that means: "don't pay too much attention!"


Note: I have chosen to call modern Armenia "The Republic of North-Eastern Armenia" only for political reasons: it is a simple reminder that the remaining of our lands is still under occupation.

PS. I'm a little surprised by your experience: I find it a bit "extreme." I am aware of such problems - i.e. already established Armenians criticizing the ways of newcomers and newcomers criticizing the ways of already established ones - but I did not think that any Armenian would tell a fellow Armenian "F--K OFF," simply because he/she does not speak Armenian. I find it a little unusual! Of course, I may be wrong!

[ArmenianKid]

I was born in the US and so were my parents. I'm 100% Armenian. They dont speak Armenian, neither do I. I dont know too much about Armenian traditions.

Is there anyone else whos a 2nd generation or more Armenian-American?

I live in NYC and I don't meet many Armenians. The ones I do meet are all not born in the USA, I don't know any Armenians as friends so when I meet someone who is Armenian, I'm always friendly and I get a nasty response, like "F--K OFF".
I also visted Glendale, CA, not one person I met there was born in the USA. Not that I'm upset about it or theres anything wrong, but I never met anyone like myself and I'm confused. Is it very rare to be like this? Do you know anyone that is?

Also I would say Most of the Armenians I met do not like me because I cant speak the language and dont know much about the culture, I found them to be jerks and very rude. Is that common?
Also most of the Armenians I met tell me "you're not Armenian" I tell them I am and they say "there no way you can be"
I think its really ignorant.

My parents say Armenians are wonderful, nice people, but I don't see it all.

i was born in the usa. but my parents were not. my mom in russia and my dad in armenia, but i was born in the states.

[Che_Ka]

Siamanto: Great post. I agree!

Although I did want to add this:

Although knowing the Armenian language is neither sufficient nor necessary to "being Armenian," I think it certainly helps. It helps in a number of ways: a) it reminds you with every Armenian word that comes out of your mouth that you are Armenian; b) it bridges the gap between you and the Homeland; c) it gives you access to Armenian literature in its original form; etc.

With that said, you can be a 'good Armenian' whether you can recite the Armenian dictionary front and back, or whether all you can say is "parev." In the Diaspora (especially outside the Middle East), it's all about taking ownership of your ethnicity -- to identify as an Armenian. But I think when you are proficient in Armenian, the chances that you'll take such ownership/identity are better.

In other words, I agree that language retention delays assimilation. The question then becomes how viable a goal language retention is, and what we should do if we conclude that the goal is unattainable?

[ArmoBarbi]

Owl, they see your lack of knowledge/language as a sign of you not caring. Anyone with a brain can understand that something like this cannot be blamed on the person! The people who were rude to you are simply full of themselves.

I am a Bakinka, whose family ran to Russia in 89, and then to Michigan in 96. My family never spoke Armenian in front of me besides little words and expressions. I was not encouraged to learn or care about our nation. I had no clue of the Genocide, of Greater Armenia, etc....untill a couple of years ago I decided to learn about my cultural identity on my own.

My family still thinks Im a wacko, but it doesnt bother me. I fell in love with our nation. I am studying to be an Armenologist, and hope to spend some time living in Yerevan. I have discovered a huge ethno-centric tendency in myself, as well as many immigrant Armenians (as you know...), but it doesn't cause me to look down upon an Armenian who doesn't know - only those who don't care to know. You obviously care, and that is all you need.

On the language: Of course we won't be able to keep every child speaking Armenian, or encourage everyone who doesn't know to learn it, but I think it would be worth it to make an effort...that's how we have as much as we have already, no? Families teach their children and encourage it. The goal can't be for 100% retention, that is clearly unattainable, but some sort of noticable growth ( we can work out the details) is perfectly attainable. I say this bravely being an example myself. I am learning Armenian as part of my degree, and my children WILL know it.

[Siamanto]

ArmoBarbi,
Meow, meow!
That may not me the highest or most eloquent form of praise; but, it is the warmest!

PS. I'm half cat, half Armenian!



Che_Ka,
I totally agree with you!
(I'm a little concerned, because total agreement is usually a sign of misunderstanding! In that case, let me add something!)

Language is a media that can helps us create a "sharable space" - across different communities. Language is a media that would allow us to transmit a legacy and create a "sharable space " across different generations.
Furthermore, the richness of the Armenian Language would allow the creation of a highly evolved and efficient media. In fact, Armenian can be - structurally - efficient and complex such as the German; and poetic or euphonic such as the French.



NightOwl,
The next time an Armenian tells you: "F--K OFF"
you should reply: "Hadjetsek Hayeren khosil."
That means something like: "Would you please speak Armenian."

[Crimson Glow]

I am learning Armenian as part of my degree, and my children WILL know it.

Well that's very nice for the 1% of the nation that offers Armenian language courses.....but then, there's the rest of us. =|

If we're going to get into language somewhat defining ties to your culture...well then, what about the inner bickering between the different types of dialects? Are there not hyestancis who think anyone who doesn't speak Armenian their way (Eastern) is not Armenian? So even if you know the language, you may still be outside of the Armenian defining parameters to some. Hell, some feel if you weren't born IN Armenia, you're not Armenian. That means, to these people, barskahyes, beirutsihyes, baghdadtsi, etc are psuedo-hyes (<-- heh....funny word...). We'll never be able to withstand the test of time as a people with that sort of extremist mentality. To me, if you were born to Armenian parents, you're Armenian, like it or not. Simple as that. Doesn't matter if you don't know a damn thing about it. Just as anyone from any other ethnicity is still part of that ethnicity, whether they assimilated into a different nation, or not.

I was born and raised in the US, as well. My parents were not. Difference between me and nearly all the other members of this board is that I've never really known another Armenian person. I mean, I'll run into one here and there through work, or whatever, but my family never had Armenian friends, co-workers, etc. I was the only Armenian all throughout my schooling that I knew of. I speak Armenian pretty fluently (not sure what dialect it would be, as my parents were a mix from both ends; guess that only makes me HALF Armenian! Hahahaha....hahaha....ha....*ahem*...sorry), but I can understand just about everything I hear in music, or read in chat rooms/on the forum. I just wouldn't consider my vocabulary as extensive in Armenian as it is in English. I love the look on people's faces, though, when I get a phone call, and suddenly, this guy with no accent, who seems as American as can be, breaks out into an Armenian conversation. I'll hang up, and look around to see everyone staring, silent and dumbfounded. Then someone will finally break the paralyzed moment by asking "what the hell was that", and I have to give them the explaination (since no one around here has a clue WTF Armenian is). This is usually followed up with "well, you speak English very well!", to which I have to reply "why wouldn't I? I was born and raised here". And then, after another baffled stare, "but...how can you speak another language, then"? Apparently, according to WASPs, unless you're Mexican, you should never be born here, and be able to speak a 2nd language.

Anyway, try not to worry too much about the midget minded. In every aspect of life, you'll run into such people. Techincally, being born into a 100% Armenian family makes you of Armenian ethnicity, even if you didn't WANT to be. Same way people trace their ancestory back several generations, and come up with "well....I'm 1/8 Irish, a 1/4 German, 1/16 French....etc". It is your ethnicity, whether you and other Armenians like it, or not. Otherwise, think about what we're saying: When a child is 1st born into an Armenian family, and can't speak yet, it's Armenian until we can figure out it won't be speaking the language?? Then we take away its Armenian "title"?? It's not like being Armenian is some sort of privilage or right you can apply for. You were either born one, or you weren't. And if you were born one, you can't suddenly at some point and time stop being one.

Anyway....I'm in the mood for some PB & J sammiches....

[hyebruin]

why are your posts always soooo long! --ehh maybe i should put this in the ankap thread, even though i sense a 'kap' in here...

[Crimson Glow]

why are your posts always soooo long!

Sorry....just working up an appetitie....

*bites into a PB & J sammich*