Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

Book Review:Yair Auron, The Banality of Indifference

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #11
    PanARMENIAN.Net
    18.03.2006 01:59 GMT+04:00

    /PanARMENIAN.Net/ "The deportation in 1915, in my opinion, was a genuine genocide, and it was widely covered by the world press, despite Ottoman state's efforts," Israeli historian Yair Auron stated at of New Approaches in the Turkish-Armenian Relations conference at Istanbul University. Auron emphasized that within that period many newspapers in Palestine covered the issue of the Armenian Genocide. "We can clearly see it by studying publications of that time. I studied well memoirs, sources and I conceive that what happened to Armenians was a genocide," the Israeli scholar stated. Auron's statements outraged some participants of New Approaches in Turkish-Armenian Relations conference. However, organizers of the event said tolerance should be displayed to any opposite opinion, the Marmara Istanbul newspaper reports.

    Comment


    • #12
      The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide, by Yair Auron. 405 pages, index. Transaction Publishers, 2000. ISBN 1-56000-412-6

      Auron has tackled a subject that is delicate, complicated, and politically controversial: the Jewish reaction to, or more specifically the Jewish indifference toward, Armenian suffering. Auron should be congratulated on his scholarly courage, since most scholars have preferred not to touch this subject. The Banality of Indifference is an excellent historical work that should be on the short list of political scientists, students of ethics, and those interested in the current politics of victimhood in general.

      Auron’s narrative covers the history of Armenian-Jewish political interaction beginning with the rise of Zionism and Armenian nationalism in the late nineteenth century, and ending with the current politics surrounding the recognition of the Armenian Genocide in the US and Israel. New and interesting material is brought to light regarding the early interaction of the two communities in the Ottoman Empire, the views on the Armenian question of Zionist leaders, and the debates in the Jewish press in Palestine following the Armenian massacres of 1894-96 and 1909. There are also fascinating accounts of the efforts to forge a Jewish-Arab-Armenian alliance during World War I mediated by the famous British diplomat Mark Sykes.

      The overarching conclusion of the book is that the Jewish attitude can be explained by political necessity, which has often overwhelmed the moral imperative of empathizing with the similar tragedy of the Armenians. The Jewish community in Palestine was understandably insecure as a weak minority, reluctant to be too active in protesting against the persecution of Armenians. Nevertheless, Auron argues that some opportunistic behavior cannot be ascribed to fear alone. The examples include the support the Ottoman authorities received from the Jews of Istanbul during one of the massacres of Armenians, who were economic competitors, or the cynical statement of Theodor Herzl that criticism from Armenians would actually help him in his dealings with Sultan Abdul Hamid.

      Auron also presents considerable evidence of disagreement among Jewish activists, intellectuals, and organizations on the proper attitude or course of action in different periods and on different issues. Zionist leader Bernard Lazzarre, for instance, was opposed to the policy of placating the Sultan and condemned the treatment of the Armenians in harshest terms. A small underground organization that operated in Palestine in the beginning of the twentieth century, the Nili group, was also staunchly pro-Armenian. The most interesting problem in this context is the ongoing intense debate in Israel on what the proper stance on the Armenian Genocide should be.

      Perhaps the only weakness of this otherwise excellent book is Auron’s insistence that the Holocaust is a unique event in history, even though he argues that Armenian suffering must be recognized and commemorated properly in Israel. Like many others, Auron assumes the uniqueness of the Holocaust rather than providing a careful argument for it. Nor does he say anything about the moral consequences of that claim, which is what is at stake in the politics surrounding the issue. Overall, however, the book’s tone and message clearly run against parochial claims of exclusive victimhood and implausible assertions of moral purity where politics is involved.

      Arman Grigorian
      Columbia University

      Comment


      • #13
        I had not realized this book is so controversial. I was kicked off of Beliefnet.com for discussing it. And this is a site that accepts advertising from Christians but allows Armenians to be treated as second rate citizens.

        Anyhow, you might find this recent incident as disappointing as I do. Here is a letter I sent to one of their partners:
        __________________________________________________ ______

        "Equality is the public recognition, effectively expressed in institutions and manners, of the principle that an equal degree of attention is due to the needs of all human beings." Simone Weil

        Dear Sirs

        If the above quote were only true. But experience shows us that it is not the case and the world is really governed by selective morality. I've learned this recently with my unfortunate experiences with Beliefnet and since you have become their partner, I feel it my obligation to let you be aware of something you are probably not aware of,

        I joined simply because I knew the site was very secular and I wanted to make people aware that spiritual and moral questions can and should be considered from the deep perspectives of those like Plato as well as modern day thought.

        Recently I discovered on one of their boards called Judaism Debate, that the question of Jewish oversensitivity was being discussed and was seen as justified.

        No one is perfect, not even me, so I decided to ask for opinions. I am part Armenian and have had family killed due to the Armenian Genocide so I know about holocausts.

        I knew about Yair Auron's book: "The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide." I also knew that Yair Auron is a highly respected man in Israel. I decided then to begin a thread called "Jewish Hypocrisy" which opened this way. Here are a sample of sanctioned reactions against me. I know the clicks won't open but these are the URLs for both posts 1 and 5:





        I began:


        Sobeit9
        3/30/2007 6:33 PM 1 out of 77

        Hello All

        I can understand over sensitivity regarding the Jewish Holocaust but does this over sensitivity have to lead to such disregard for the Armenian Holocaust? The fact that it apparently has been the case is extremely disconcerting and only indicates a form of hypocrisy they should bring shame. I wonder why it doesn't. Perhaps before complaining about what others do, you should consider if is right for you to do the same.

        From the following article CLICK HERE

        "The ending of Yair Auron's book generates the title. It is not so much, he concludes, the "banality of evil" (Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem, 1964) that accounts for the success of genocide, but the "banality of indifference." "The reaction of the multitudes, those located in the space between the immolator and the victims, is characterized by indifference, conformity, and opportunism. The Jews, too, in the circumstances of time and place, do not go beyond this banality, with several exceptions. In Israeli society, there are many people who would prefer not to know about the genocide of the Armenians and the genocide of the Gypsies...In Israeli historical consciousness, the Holocaust plays a central role--becoming increasingly stronger over the years. This consciousness stresses the singularity of the Holocaust. It contains, in my opinion, an extreme and almost utter focus on the Jews as victims, and a disregard--consciously or not, intentionally or not--of acts of genocide that have taken place in the twentieth century, among them the murder of the Armenians and the extermination of the Gypsies" (pp. 372-373)."

        It continued with:





        Sobeit9
        3/31/2007 9:52 PM 5 out of 77

        Vern

        We all need improvement but that is not the point. I read a lot of complaining that not enough people acknowledge the Jewish Holocaust.

        This may be true but if the Armenian Holocaust is also discounted due to concerns with Turkey and just prefer not sharing the holocaust, then it is hypocritical. Here is another article that says essentially the same thing:

        CLICK

        As opposed to many other nations, Israel has never recognized the murder of the Armenian people, and in effect lent a hand to the deniers of that genocide. Our official reactions moved in the vague, illusory realm between denial to evasion, from "it's not clear there really was genocide" to "it's an issue for the historians," as Shimon Peres once put it so outrageously and stupidly.

        There are two main motives for the Israeli position. The first is the importance of the relationship with Turkey, which for some reason continues to deny any responsibility for the genocide, and uses heavy pressure worldwide to prevent the historical responsibility for the
        genocide to be laid at its door.

        The pressure does work, and not only Israel, but other countries as well do the arithmetic of profits and loss. The other motive is that recognition of another nation's murder would seem to erode the uniqueness of the Jewish Holocaust.

        Five years ago, on the 85th anniversary of the Armenian genocide, I was invited as education minister to the Armenian church in the Old City of Jerusalem. This is what I said at the time:

        "I am here, with you, as a human being, as a Jew, as an Israeli, and as the minister of education in Israel. For many years, too many, you were alone on this, your memorial day. I am aware of the special significance of my presence here. Today, for the first time, you are
        less alone."

        The bottom line is that if you want to be upset at the effects of politics on ethics, and callous attitudes in the presence of suffering, don't do the same thing.

        So the intent of the thread is quite clear. Perhaps there is a need for balance and some work from the Jewish side. There is nothing wrong with this. I am not asserting anything but merely agreeing with the highly respected author.
        ___________________________

        But apparently we have an issue here of a form of selective morality sanctioned by Beliefnet. Here are sample responses of attitudes against me:



        clyde5001
        3/31/2007 10:26 PM 6 out of 77

        This is just another attempt by yet another Xtian to discount the seriousness of our Holocaust. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.


        zSaguaro
        3/31/2007 11:08 PM 12 out of 77

        Rashi is right on. And to add a little something...

        Every holocaust survivor (and most Jews) I've ever heard has spoken out against ANY kind of genocide. It shouldn't be allowed to happen, ever, and they beg the world to do something about it. And yet it still happens.

        I'm suspicious of how sobeit has worded this thread, baiting us into an argument designed to target us as somehow horrible, self-centered hypocritical people.

        Most of us don't discount genocide (there are exceptions I'm sure, as with any population). All genocides are serious. Ours was a wake-up call to the world that this can happen. People need to know because it keeps happening. If people are not reminded how serious it is, no one will care. Not only is it part of our history, but we care enough about others to keep reminding the world that this wasn't a one-time thing. We 'emphasize' this so others may live.


        Sobeit9
        3/31/2007 11:12 PM 13 out of 77

        zS

        I'm not baiting anything. I'm quoting two articles some of which I've read before. Do you think the authors are baiting you?




        GeveretMozes
        4/1/2007 12:53 AM 25 out of 33

        B"H

        I am pro-Israel, but that does not mean I am anti-Palestinian. You do not have to be anti-the other side in order to be pro-something. But that is a different matter.

        Unless you can find me evidence where I, GM, or Clyde, or anyone else on this board has a personal alliance with Turkey, then you cannot put blame on us for anything.

        This is the classic "you Jews" attitude and I personally will have nothing to do with you and your baiting and trolling.





        river8101
        4/1/2007 8:43 AM 35 out of 63

        Sobeit9

        Seems to me you're the one calling names.

        I admit that I know very little about the Armenian Holocaust, much less Turkey. Perhaps that is because the Armenian Holocaust didn't happen when many of us were living and was rarely mentioned in our history books. Of course, that was wrong. But then neither was WWII mentioned our history books, much less the Holocaust. I remember the Jewish Holocaust, as I was alive at the time. While thousands of survivors of the Jewish Holocaust remain to tell us of their suffering between 1939-1945 only a few survivors of the Armenian Holocaust, are still alive to be living witnesses to the modern era's first act of genocide. The Armenian groups that wish to commemorate their own bloodbath are scattered.

        The Holocaust in question here was not the Jewish Holocaust of the early 1940’s, but the Armenian Holocaust of 1915. The dead amounted not to six million but to one and a half million. There is no event in history like the Jewish Holocaust, where such a large number of people were systematically murdered in such a short period of time, mostly between 1942—1945, and during the biggest war in history. WWII. One and a half million of those murdered were children. In the last three years 200,00 people have been brutally murdered in Darfur. Is anyone stopping it? No. Did anyone stop the Jewish Holocaust? No. The Armenian Holocaust? No.

        Jews have been persecuted and murdered for nearly 20 centuries just and only because they were Jews. You mentioned the Jews and communism. Oh, yes. That’s often brought up. The Jews are communists, the Jews are bankers, the Jews are all left wing, the Jews are all right wing. And, we have a plot to take over the world! Uh huh.




        MarySara722
        4/1/2007 12:18 PM 50 out of 61

        Sobeit. You have crossed a line with your blatant senseless accusations.
        More than half a dozen Bnet members have directly told you that we Jews are against all types of “Holocausts” on any people whatsoever, and you have consistently ignored that fact, and yet still continue your false incriminations.
        It’s abhorrent how you come here with all your charges of “anti Armenian bias and intentional downplaying of the Armenian Holocaust” as well as the idiocy of your obsession with your verison of your Weilism, Platoism, Jacob Needlebaumism, your proselytizing with your so-called “Pre-christian” belief system, and so on.

        Indeed, “How sad” is right! For you.





        MarySara722
        4/1/2007 7:01 PM 55 out of 61


        This OP and the ensuing posts by the originator is utterly inflammatory as well as simply ridiculous.

        More unnecessary insidious accusations from someone who is so insulting in the process.
        Of course I didn’t accept anything less from So be it.

        Typical So be it.





        clyde5001
        4/1/2007 8:20 PM 59 out of 61

        So he's basically saying that, since we didn't stand up against the Armenian genocide, Hitler was justified killing 6 million of us (if that number is really true).

        It's the standard Xtian position: we had it coming.





        zSaguaro
        4/1/2007 9:28 PM 61 out of 61

        Sobeit is baiting us. No amount of proof or time spent defending ourselvs will matter to him because he ignores it anyway. We should just ignore him and not take his bait.

        I could understand if he had a true concern but it appears he doesn't--it's just a cover to draw us out--making him disingenuous and not worth our time.
        ________________________________________________

        Now comes the good part. The thread was moved to a section called "Schmooze and News" The right place apparently to schmooze about dead Armenians. Schmooze implies indifference which is the theme of the book.



        clyde5001
        4/3/2007 6:59 AM 82 out of 86

        This discussion area is for Jews to talk with each other about anything of interest, from books and film to life in general. Others may participate as respectful guests

        OK Sobeit, those are the rules of this board - read them above.

        You are no Jew (thank G-D).

        You are certainly not a respectful guest - you are trying to be as disrespectful to us on one of our holiest holdiays.

        You are flagrantly breaking the rules.

        I will email anyone possible to get rid of you - permanentaly from these boards - if possible.

        If you can't play by the rules, be banned by them.
        __________________________________________________ _________



        The thread was finally hidden away in archives and I was suspended from Beliefnet for insulting members. Yet all I am doing is quoting a highly respected author and being ridiculed. Just showing a little concern for Armenian genocide seemed beneath their dignity and suggesting such appeared as a personal insult to some.

        OK so we have classic anti Christian Armenian bias on Beliefnet. I of course have to fight it as Armenian and the effect of the Armenian Genocide on my family history.

        So I ask you if you support Beliefnet in its support of the attitudes directed against me and my introduction of Yair Auron" book? on a thread? You speak of people coming together but are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? Are you willing to tell Beliefnet that they are wrong in their suppression of the Armenian genocide and Jewish attitudes towards it detailed by the distinguished author. Is the Armenian question and dead Armenians worth more than a "schmooze?"

        I can tell the Church and fortunately I am related to one of its archbishops so I will be heard I can tell people like you who are associates and advertisers etc. in my fight for equality. Are you willing to hear the call and stand up for justice regarding the Armenian Genocide and the need for the question of Jewish indifference to seriously be considered?

        I am looking forward to your respnse.
        __________________________________________________ ___

        Frankly I was surprised to see a website that is associated with ABC news take such an attitude. The author is a Jew asking his people to take another look at the question. You would think that it was a crime to suggest such a thing.

        Comment


        • #14
          Very interesting Nick. It seems that we do have something in common - I was recently banned from the Israeli forum for very similar reasons.

          Comment

          Working...
          X