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"All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) -
(i write that after seeing a slideshow about armenian genoside i just want to share, have a nice day)
i do not think that any logical comment about this video will make any sense in these environment..
it seems that both sides are extremely angry. however, as a turkish person, i can honestly say that i share your pain and i believe that many turks think in that way after seeing that slides.
but again honestly i just wonder if you have ever thought about why all of these had happened in 1915, were armenians totally innocent, in the time of first world war?
i am not trying to defend my country, what i am trying to say is that both sides -armenian& turkish- are just too sensitive about the subject after that many years.
turks cannot face the truth, of course many people killed in 1915 turks should accept that, hovewer armenians cannot forget this event after that many years genoside, it is still in the center of their life.
in other words as a turkish writer elif safak said, turks do not like past whereas armenians do not like future..
turks in geneal are trying to forget everything about past,about ottoman empire; since they believe that many things have changed after being turkish republic.
but armenians strictly remember their past.
you may say that a person is nothing without their ancestors i.e. past, but i just wonder how an armenian will feel if one day turkey accepts the genoside, i mean he/she will achieve the aim of his/her life, and then?
i tried to be neutral but since i am turkish i think i could not succeed, sorry for that..
to summarize, i am just trying to say that let's come together and share our ideas as turkish and armenian people, that is the only way to solve our problems.
we used to be friends maybe something between us had changed and we will never be friends anymore but i think we can accomplish not to be enemies.. -
Originally posted by arzu
Even though this is your first post I can see you probably have good intentions. I understand some of what you are trying to say even though I do not agree but it all boils down to the same arguement that permeates from your government ("the official line"). "Yes, we massacred some Armenians but they were asking for it" as well as "It didn't happen and you should get over it": Their strategy imitates that of defense lawyers who; (a) assure the jury that while their client did not commit murder, (b) he had a good excuse to do it, (c) and he was the one who was actually murdered.
Why do Armenians still look to past? Because we lost our homeland; the place where our language, church, culture, came from; the place where Armenians became Armenians and the origin of our 3,000 year old nation. The people cannot be replaced and the place of our origin has been taken from us. 3,000 years of presence was wiped out in a just a few decades, culminating in the genocide which began in 1915.. This is why we still care and are still angry. To have the Armenian Genocide denied is a further insult that adds to our pain. If the Turks ever admitted to the Genocide it would probably heal some wounds. It's also a further insult to think we are held together solely by the Armenian Genocide. We are deeply committed to our church, culture, language and history. There is a reason why we have survived as a people for 3,000 years and others who lived amongst us have faded away. The Armenian Genocide simply reminds us that we have to stand together.
Modern Turks are not responsible for the Genocide but by denying it they perpetuate the Genocide further and thus abett murder;
Turks look to the future because the past is ugly; understandable I suppose;
The Armenian Genocide was basically an inevitablity (though others may disagree) I'll explain why:
The aftermath of the French Revolution led to various liberation movements throughout Europe (liberation from empires and/or from corrupt, dying regimes). With regards to the Ottoman Empire, the Greeks gained independence first in a much celebrated movement supported by a vast array of intellectuals and politicians from Western Europe. With the spread of liberalism and the continued emergence of the middle class (and intellectual class) in Europe, other ethnic groups began to yearn for their freedom and right to rule over their own destinies. Imagine that? People wanting to have a say in their own political futura and sufferage.
And now I will explain my reasoning for the Genocide:
1) The Ottoman Rulers were not happy about the Tanizmat reforms that they felt were forced upon them from the European Powers. And many Turks will point to this "European meddling" as a reason for the begining of the poising of the relationship with Armenians and as a European plot to dismember the Empire; what they seem to overlook is the fact that the Ottoman Empire was essentially protected from an ever-expanding Russian Empire by these same European Powers. (Crimean War) and the "Sick-Man" was kept alive well past its prime. It further angered the average Turk that a Christian dhimmi should be considered an equal. This was seen as an insult, and still is in modern-day Turkey.
2) When the Balkan nations rose up (starting in 1877 and culminating in the first Balkan War), many Turks and other Muslims were forced out of the region resettled in Anatolia. The majority were resettled in the eastern most portions of Anatolia amongst the Armenians and Assyrians. Likewise, many Kurds were encouraged to re-locate from near the present day Iraqi and Iranian borders further north into Armenian areas. These people were not pre-disposed to have friendly relations with their new Christian neighbors and they would provide the vanguard (along with the Kurds who were organized in the Hamidye with the sole purpose of marauding and murder) of the forces behind the slaughter of the Armenian, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Yezidis, and Pontic Greeks. What did these minorities get from the this seetlement of Turks from the Balkans? The chance to be scapegoats for the angry mob of Turks, Circassians, Laz, Kurds.
3) Armenians Revolutionary groups did not demand independence prior to 1915, they demanded equal rights for the Armenians citizens of the Empire and this angered the ruling CUP even though the ARF assisted the CUP in overthrowing Abdul Hamid and were originally promised equality. The Armenians, who were trying to bring a postive change with zeal after the 1908 revolution wanted to be treated as equals and be allowed to defend themselves against marauding Kurds. Perhaps they were naive. What did these uppity Armenians get for supporting liberty, equality, and fraternity amongst all peoples in Asia Minor? Increased hostility, harrasment and death.
4) Yes, Armenians did fight against the Turks in WWI; The vast majority of these Armenians were from the Russian Empire and obligated to do so as they were drafted by the Russian authorities. Most were sent to the eastern-front, the theatre between the Russians and Austro-Hunagrians. Let's not overlook that the Russians also used both Georgian, Azeri and Kurdish irregular forces to fight against the Ottoman Empire as well. Also, Armenians by in large answered the call (like sheep) to serve the Ottoman effort. Some Armenians did defect to the Russians, but after they learned what became of their comrades in labor batalions and what did they get for it? Worked to the point of death as pack animals and in labor battalions and then a bullet in the head if they were lucky.
5) The CUP gave minorities hope for the future. They fully believed in the revolution but the CUP would split into three factions: The Pan-Ottomans (the liberals), the Pan-Muslims, and the Pan-Turks. The Pan-Turks (these same idiots who you should blame for the Ottoman involvement in WWI) would come to dominate the CUP. What did the Armenians get for naively believing in and supporting the CUP? Betrayal
6) Even though Armenians were triple-taxed and harrassed, they still managed to make a decent living even in the most remote areas of Anatolia. Prior to the genocide, Armenians were going through a renewal/renaissance of their language, church and culture after centuries of stagnation.This inspired resentment from their Muslim neighbors. What did Armenians get from working hard? Jealous neighbors and an invitation to be robbed.
Armenians and Turks could never be considered "friends" in a true sense. The relationship was asymetrical as the Armenians were expected to be unquestioning sheep and toil in their various trades at the behest of their masters. As long as the Armenians lived up to their end of the arrangement, they would not be massacred (yet still robbed, raped, triple taxed, harrassed, etc). You can never really be friends with someone you don't respect and the Turks did not respect Armenians ut still relied on Armenian brains and creativity as the Turks had little or no interest in non-relgious or non-martial pursuits. Armenians were simply a fact of life and a necessity since they engaged in occupations and trades that were held in contempt by Turks. Even the poorest, most ignorant Turk in Anatolia had more rights than a wealthy Armenian merchant. I assume you know about "dhimmitude"? The Armenians being Christians, were dhimmis and were prohibited, even in the case of murder, testify against a Muslim.
This was the reality and why the issue remains to this day.General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”Comment
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