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Christian Unity?

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  • Christian Unity?

    The Pope paying his respects to Ataturk 11/29/2006

    Karekin II Urges Armenian Genocide Recognition Before Pope

    VATICAN CITY (Combined Sources)--His Holiness Karekin II, Catholicos of All Armenians on Wednesday spoke at the Vatican saying the whole world should recognize the crime against humanity.
    "We Armenians are a people who have survived genocide, and we know well the value of love, brotherhood, friendship and a secure life," Catholicos Karekin II said in a public address during Pope Benedict's general audience in St Peter's Square.
    "Today, many countries of the world recognize and condemn the genocide committed against the Armenian people by Ottoman Turkey..." the head of Armenia's Apostolic Church added, speaking in English before tens of thousands of people.
    Karekin II, who like the pope has the title "His Holiness," said he wanted to "appeal to all nations and lands to universally condemn all genocides that have occurred throughout history and those that continue to the present day..."
    In his address to Karekin II before the crowd, Benedict spoke of "the severe persecutions suffered by Armenian Christians, especially during the last century," but did not use the word genocide. The Catholicos, in his address broadcast live on many religious television stations around the world, said "denial of these crimes is an injustice that equals the commission of the same."
    France's lower house of parliament infuriated Turkey in 2006 by backing a bill that would make it a crime to deny that mass killings of Armenians amounted to genocide. France's Senate never ratified the bill. Last year legislators in the US House of Representatives proposed a resolution to formally name the massacre genocide but the move faltered under stiff opposition by President George W. Bush and Turkey, a key NATO ally.
    The word genocide appeared in a joint statement when Karekin II visited the late Pope John Paul in 2000. But the Vatican, which has diplomatic relations with both Armenia and Turkey, has never formally recognized the killings as such. John Paul visited Armenia in 2001 and prayed at Dizidzernagapert..

    Wednesday, May 7, 2008
    Last edited by crusader1492; 05-08-2008, 01:32 PM.
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  • #2
    Re: Christian Unity?

    To help you place things in a better perspective, the Vatican was for centuries what Washington DC is today...
    Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:


    Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog:


    • #3
      Re: Christian Unity?

      Also, Pope Benedict visited Turkey in an effort to mend his relationship with Muslims after they voiced anger at him.
      Between childhood, boyhood,
      & manhood (maturity) there
      should be sharp lines drawn w/
      Tests, deaths, feats, rites
      stories, songs & judgements

      - Morrison, Jim. Wilderness, vol. 1, p. 22


      • #4
        Re: Christian Unity?

        Ataturk has nothing to do with Islam. In fact he hated Islam. Therefore, what does visiting Ataturk's grave have to do with mending his relationship with Muslims?

        The Pope is an educated man. He knows that Ataturk is responsible for Christian massacres, such as the one in Smyrna. He also knows that it was Ataturk who put in place the Turkish nationalistic dogma that perpetuates the denial of the Armenian Genocide and all the evil that comes with it.

        How is it then that the Pope can justify praying at Tsitsernakabert and then turn around and pay his respects to a the Christian-hating, young Turk, donmeh J-ew named Ataturk?'s a rhetorical question.
        ԼՈԼ, Փեփսի Ատտիքթ


        • #5
          Re: Christian Unity?

          Pope recalls Armenian 'martyrdom,' avoiding 'genocide' term39 minutes ago

          VATICAN CITY (AFP) — Pope Benedict XVI on Friday recalled the "martyrdom" of the Armenian Apostolic Church during a visit by its leader Karekin II, avoiding the word "genocide" pronounced several times by his predecessor John Paul II.
          Karekin II, on the fourth and final day of a visit to the Vatican, had on Wednesday urged "all nations to universally denounce the Armenian genocide" in a speech to some 20,000 people gathered in St Peter's Square.

          On Friday, however, the pope said: "The recent history of the Armenian Apostolic Church has been written in the contrasting colours of persecution and martyrdom, darkness and hope, humiliation and spiritual rebirth.

          "The restoration of freedom to the Church in Armenia has been a source of great joy for us all," the 81-year-old pontiff added.

          In November 2000, a meeting at the Vatican between John Paul II and Karekin II ended with a joint statement condemning the Armenian "genocide."

          The following year, at Karekin II's invitation, the Polish pope travelled to Armenia where the two religious leaders again spoke of "the extermination of one-and-a-half million Armenian Christians in what is generally called the first genocide of the 20th century."

          John Paul II also spoke of the "annihilation of thousands of people that followed under the former totalitarian regime," referring to Soviet-era religious persecution.

          On Friday, Karekin II invited Benedict XVI to visit Armenia both in his own name and on behalf of new President Serzh Sarkisian.

          The two religious leaders had private talks after the pope led an ecumenical celebration in the Apostolic Palace's imposing Clementine Hall.

          The Armenian Apostolic Church, one of the world's oldest independent churches, numbers some seven million adherents of whom two million live in present-day Armenia.

          Armenians say up to 1.5 million of their kinsmen died in orchestrated killings during the final years of the Ottoman Empire, with more than 20 countries officially recognising genocide as the decades passed.

          Turkey says 300,000 Armenians and at least an equal number of Turks were killed in civil strife when the Christian Armenians, backed by Russia, rose up against the Ottomans.

          The dispute has been a major obstacle in relations between Turkey and Armenia, which have no diplomatic ties and whose border has remained closed for more than a decade.
          Is is possible that the current Pope is a Turkophile?
          ԼՈԼ, Փեփսի Ատտիքթ


          • #6
            Re: Christian Unity?

            When has there ever been "Christian unity"? Most of us on this discussion board are in our twenties and thirties. So, it's time we grow up and realize that it's all about political interests. Simply put, political interests is what makes the world go around.

            The current Pope is not a Turkophile, he has made many anti-Turkish statements in the past. However, these statements had to do with Turkey entering the EU. These are the nuances of political interests. Nonetheless, what we need to understand also is that the Vatican was for centuries what Washington DC is today - a geopolitical powerhouse. Even today, the Vatican wields immense political and financial power. The Catholic Church is perhaps the wealthiest entity on earth, and it is an integral part of the current political/financial elites that administers western Europe. Thus, it's only natural that administrators of the Vatican can be as bad, if not worst in some cases, than any other politician on earth. This matter has nothing to do with Christ, Christian unity, morals, ethics, etc... Simply put - this is politics.

            The West, needs Turkey as a buffer against the Russian Federation and Iran, as it needs Zionist State as a buffer against Arabs. As Russia and Iran grow more powerful, Turkey's political stature will grow in the eyes of the West. What's more, yearly economic trade between Europe and Turkey runs in the billions of Euros. In essence, Turkey is Europe's mico-China, and Turks in Europe are Europe's cheep labor - its Mexicans. As a result, although the West will not allow Turkey to enter the EU as a full member, it will 'never' jeopardize is strategic political/economic relations with Turkey... Over what, a tiny, impoverished and landlocked nation like Armenia?

            To make a further point: The Russian Federation's economic trade with Turkey is also quite large. So, why has the Duma of the Russian Federation recognized the Armenian Genocide? It's because it is in Russia's geopolitical interests - Armenia serves as a buffer against NATO expansion in the southern Caucasus.

            When Armenia becomes a large, prosperous and powerful republic you will have nations, regardless of their ethnic or religious affiliations, getting on line to recognize the Armenian Genocide... Let's revisit Katolikos Khrimian Hayrik's famous "paper ladle" speech.

            The Paper Ladle

            Blessed and beloved Armenians: Now, you have all perked up your ears, impatiently and anxiously waiting to hear what sort of news Khirimian Hayrig has brought us from the Berlin Congress, and what will he say about Article 61 which the powerful governments of the world have bestowed upon the Armenian provinces. Listen carefully to what I am about to say. Grasp the profound meaning of my words and then go and contemplate on my message.

            As you know, upon the decision of Patriarch Nersess and the National Assembly, we went to Berlin to present the Armenian Case to the great powers of the Congress. We had great hopes that the Congress would bring peace to the world and liberation to the small and oppressed nations, among which we count ourselves. The Congress convened, the statesmen of the great powers of the world gathered around diplomatic tables covered with green cloth. And we, the small and suppressed nations waited outside the Congress. In the middle of the Congress, upon a table covered with green cloth was placed a large bowl of heriseh (a thick and pasty stew-like meal) from which large and small nations and governments would draw their portion.

            Some of the participants pulled to the East, some pulled to the West, and after long debates, in order, one by one, they called the representatives of the small nations [into the meeting]. The Bulgarian entered first, then Serbian and the Gharadaghian. The rattling of the swords hanging from their sides attracted the attention of the assembly. After speaking for some while, these three, pulled out their swords, as if ladles made of iron, and dipped into the bowl, took their portion of heriseh and proudly and boldly departed.

            It was now the turn of the Armenian delegate. I drew near with the paper petition from the National Assembly, presented it and asked that they fill my plate too with heriseh. Then, the officials standing before the bowl asked me, "Where is your iron ladle? It is true that we are serving heriseh here, but he who does not have an iron ladle cannot draw from it. Listen up. In the future, if this heriseh is distributed, do not come without a ladle or you will return empty handed.

            Dear Armenian people. Could I have dipped my paper ladle in the heriseh? It would have become wet and stayed there. There, where guns talk and swords make noise, what significance do appeals and petitions have? And I saw next to the Gharadaghian, the Bulgarian and other delegates, several brave [men], blood dripping from the swords hanging at their sides. I then turned my head, as if I was looking for the brave men from Zeitoon, Sasoon, Shadakh and other mountainous areas. But where were they? People of Armenia, tell me, where were those brave souls?

            Should not one or two of them have been next to me, so that showing their bloody swords to the members of Congress I could have exclaimed, "Look, HERE ARE MY IRON LADLES! They are here, ready!" But alas, all I had was a paper petition, which got wet in the heriseh and we returned empty handed. Truly, had they compared me with the delegates of the Congress, I was taller, my facial features were more attractive. But to what avail? In my hand was placed a piece of paper and not a sword. For this reason we were deprived of the heriseh. In spite of all, in view of the future, going to the Congress of Berlin was not useless.

            People of Armenia, of course you understand well what the gun could have done and can do. And so, dear and blessed Armenians, when you return to the Fatherland, to your relatives and friends, take weapons, take weapons and again weapons. People, above all, place the hope of your liberation on yourself. Use your brain and your fist! Man must work for himself in order to be saved.

            Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:


            Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog:


            • #7
              Re: Christian Unity?

              Originally posted by Armenian
              When has there very been "Christian unity"? Most of us on this discussion board are in our twenties and thirties. So, it's time we grow up and realize that it's all about political interests. Simply put, political interests is what makes the world go around.

              The current Pope is not a Turkophile, he has made many anti-Turkish statements in the past...
              When I asked if the Pope could be a Turkophile, it was a rhetorical and provacative question. I understand the nature of geopolitics and the cold calculations that go along with it. However, that does not mean that I cannot call out the hypocrisy of those engaing in their state's political interests...even if it's the Pope.
              Making the Pope squirm on the Armenian Genocide is in Armenia's political interest. I'm glad Karekin II pushed the Pope out of his comfort zone on this subject.
              Last edited by crusader1492; 05-09-2008, 12:20 PM.
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