Some turk said this on anouther forum!

[Kevin_B]

http://www.irandefence.net/showthread.php?t=21420&page=3

simple, it was no genocide. to call it genocide it must happen systematicaly or must be done by goverment&officers. armenians stabbed ottoman empire in the back during the russian-ottoman war in the east anatolia(both orthodox christian you know) then armenians revolted massacred thousands of turks&kurds while muslims couldnt touch them because of the russian shield over them.
when russia withdrawn from anatolia(soviet revolution) in 1917 armenians left with no protection and the folks who live in the region attacked them with the purpose of revenge. then ottoman goverment banished all armenians to syria(where they wouldnt have any contact with russians) during their exile many kurds&turks attacked them and killed thousands of them.

there are two things that i do not like in this so called genocide.

1-in 1920s the armenians claimed that the number was 100.000-200.000 and in 2007 the numbers somehow jumped to 1.5 million.

2-altough ottoman archieves are all opened to everyone, you cant get into armenian archieves cause they are restricted. why hiding?
when turkish goverment offered them to establish a council of historians to seek the truth they rejected the offer.

so dont want to start another turko*armenian debate in here.
all i want to say if you seek knowledge about the so called genocide thing, you should read the sources of both sides.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Some turk said this on anouther forum!

I take it you didn't read that thread I linked to in your Malta Trials post. This dismembers all of their excuses:

http://soadfans.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-22456.htm

Notice the Turk's response (when he finally DOES respond) about not wanting to discuss it anymore. Turks love to plaster the denialist propaganda like the stuff you quoted all over the place (usually a version of the same garbage copy/pasted from some denialist website), but when facts and figures backed by evidence are presented that contradict their stance, they either ignore them and keep parroting the same company lines, or they don't say anything at all. I have very, VERY rarely seen a Turk refute counterarguments like the ones I made on the above thread. This is a trend I've discovered over the last 6 or 7 years that I've studied this subject.

BTW, are you actually German, or are you a Turk? Everything you've posted/inquired about so far has been Turkish excuses. I get the feeling that the "I'm an American-German" label you gave yourself was merely a Trojan Horse to present the "Turkish side" on this forum without being banned, or ignored.

[crusader1492]

Re: Some turk said this on anouther forum!

BTW, are you actually German, or are you a Turk? Everything you've posted/inquired about so far has been Turkish excuses. I get the feeling that the "I'm an American-German" label you gave yourself was merely a Trojan Horse to present the "Turkish side" on this forum without being banned, or ignored.

Astute observation...I have also questioned this guys motives. We'll keep an eye on him anyway.

[Kevin_B]

Re: Some turk said this on anouther forum!

I take it you didn't read that thread I linked to in your Malta Trials post. This dismembers all of their excuses:

http://soadfans.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-22456.htm

Notice the Turk's response (when he finally DOES respond) about not wanting to discuss it anymore. Turks love to plaster the denialist propaganda like the stuff you quoted all over the place (usually a version of the same garbage copy/pasted from some denialist website), but when facts and figures backed by evidence are presented that contradict their stance, they either ignore them and keep parroting the same company lines, or they don't say anything at all. I have very, VERY rarely seen a Turk refute counterarguments like the ones I made on the above thread. This is a trend I've discovered over the last 6 or 7 years that I've studied this subject.

BTW, are you actually German, or are you a Turk? Everything you've posted/inquired about so far has been Turkish excuses. I get the feeling that the "I'm an American-German" label you gave yourself was merely a Trojan Horse to present the "Turkish side" on this forum without being banned, or ignored.

No I just want debunking of all this stuff that gets thrown at me! I be leave this part debunks the first part!

Clearly then, you haven’t established jack yet to draw this conclusion. Even the official Ottoman stats for 1915 - 1918 provided by Cemal's bureau (which were obtained for the bureau by Interior Minister Mustafa Arif) placed the Armenian death totals at 800,000 (Ottoman Gazette Takvimi Vekâyi No. 3909, July 21, 1920, pp. 3, 4). This coming from the people who perpetrated the crime. Other archives also beg to differ with the more conservative figures. Take for example the German archives:

· Oct 29, 1915; report from Dr. Arthur Chevalier de Nadamlenzki of the Austria-Hungary Adrianople (Edirne) consul: “For the entire Ottoman Empire 1.5 million had already been deported” (Ibid. 12 Tiirkei/463, Z.94/P).

· Jul 2, 1916; report: As early as February 1916, 1.5 million Armenians destroyed (Volkswirtschaftliche Studien in der Türkei, A. A. Türkei, 134/35, A18613).

· May 27, 1916; report from Foreign Office Intelligence Director Erzberger: 1.5 million Armenians destroyed (A.A. Türkei 183/42, A13959).

· Oct 4, 1916; report from German Interim Ambassador to Turkey Wilhelm Radowitz: 1.5 million Armenians destroyed, 425,000 survive (A.A. Türkei 183/44, A27493).

· Mar 13, 1918; report to Vienna from Dr. Kwatkiowski of the Austrian consul at Trabzon and Samsun: 1 million deported in the six eastern provinces, most died (Austrian Foreign Ministry Archives 12 Türkei/380, ZI.17/pol and 12 Türkei/463, Z.94/P).

· 1918 report from German major Franz Karl Endres serving in the Turkish army: 1.2 million Armenians perished (Die Türkei. Munich, CH Beck, 1918, p. 161).

By the way, this is where Armenians get their “made up”, or “greatly exaggerated” figures of 1.2, or 1.5 million. The Turks like to claim that figures, such as these German ones are exaggerated due to wartime propaganda. They argue that some Germans still held a bias against the Muslims, even though they were the Turk’s co-conspirators. Why this line of reasoning is supposed to be valid, I don’t know. I mean….for the Germans at least, are they not basically implicating themselves since they aided and abetted the criminal masterminds? Is it not plausible that these figures are much higher than others because the German military had direct access to the killing fields?

Again, the double standard for evidence rears its ugly head (throwing out evidence from certain nations due to wartime bias, while accepting others from those same nations). On a side note, I’ve always wondered why the Armenians haven’t gone after the Germans for their part in all of this.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Some turk said this on anouther forum!

What a joke. I just read through the rest of that page you linked to. Let's see...

There is no proof whatsoever that the Ottomans (not the Turks) had in mind to wipe the Armenians out systematically.

Oh no? It's funny how Turks claim this, and in the same breath (see below), use the fact that hundreds of Ottoman soldiers and officials were found guilty BY the successors to said government during the tribunals as evidence there was no genocide (in other words, why would the government punish itself if it had planned a genocide). I guess they don't understand when they're screwing over their own case. You'll see LOTS of contradictions like this in their "defense".

This is going off memory, so I don't have the reference handy for the quote. It can easily be found by those that want to. Cerkez Asan (sp) was an Ottoman officer appointed for the “resettlement” of the Armenians. Upon realizing the aim of the deportations, he resigned and wrote, “Stop talking of deportations. Say instead that this was a decision to exterminate the Armenian nation, and there will no longer be any need for arguments.” This is from a man involved directly with the orders.

Also, Turkish politician and eyewitness Hasan Amca wrote EXTENSIVELY about what he saw in the Turkish “Alemdar” daily (April 5, 1919, Constantinople). "Be sure, I have once more read your article and I still do not want to believe that it belongs to your (Excellency's) pen. How can one write such things even under national inspiration, religious annoyance or personal persuasion? Is it possible to reject blood of hundred of thousands innocent people and believe in some Suleiman Nazif Bey, supporter of murderers? When you say there were officials in the deportation regions who carried out demand of the law reasonably and even 'defended and were kind-hearted', I do not know what you mean by saying the expression 'defended and kind-hearted'. Do you think that a man who 'defended and was kind-hearted' would take a woman with three-four children out of the house and send them to the mountains, and uninhabited deserts where even grass is not found or a place to meet death? Is that all?"

There are countless Turkish witnesses, as well as testimonials from those directly involved in the "deportations" attesting to the genocidal intentions of this decision.

The Ottoman Empire at the time was at war and financially broke, at such a time why would they spend tons of money and resources on deportating the Armenians instead of just killing them on the spot if they indeed planned wiping out the Armenian population. Killing them on the spot would certainly be more cheaper and much more effective.

Simple. They had decided that the only way for the Empire to succeed, and to regain its former glory, was to cleanse it of ALL non-Turkish elements. The Armenians suffered the worst by this decision due to being the largest minority within the Empire, but make no mistake, ALL non-Muslims suffered immensely at this time due to this decision. Were all those other ethnicities involved in HUGE revolts, giving the Ottoman officials "cause to 'deport'" them? As to why they weren't just killed on the spot, that depends which villages/regions you look at. Some were. Others had to be taken a bit more out of plain view. And why not let some of the marches do the actual killing FOR you?

And let's not forget that most Armenians who were deportated to Ottoman provinces of Syria, Palestine, Lebanon etc survived, there are hundreds of thousands of Armenians in these countries right now.

There are approximately 4-5 million Armenians living outside of Armenia today. I'd hardly call that a staggering figure, ESPECIALLY considering that number actually exceeds the number of Armenians living IN Armenia. And a good portion of those people in the countries listed above came from ancestors who had moved there BEFORE the genocide even got under way.

There were many Armenian officials (as well as greek, kurd) in the Ottoman government at the time. Would the Armenian officials themselves order a genocide on fellow Armenians?

This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read. For starters, this only serves to again strengthen the Armenian position, and contradict the Turkish claims, for if the Armenians were so distrusted for so many decades, how the hell did the Tashnag Party (the party most Turks today blame for organizing the huge revolts that forced them to "deport" the Armenians) get a place in the CUP? They obtained these positions because the secularist Liberal Union wing of the Young Turks that overthrew Sultan Hamid II in 1908 (WITH THE HELP OF THE ARMENIANS, and other minorities), and reigned until January of 1913 gave them that power. Even this late in the game, Armenians were trusted enough to serve in the government.

Secondly, this guy's argument has nothing to do with disproving that orders of annihilation were given by the Ottoman government. The minorities were indeed involved in the government at the time, but they had no voice or power as of 1913, when the radical wing of the CUP organized the assassination of Minister of War Nazim Pasha, and took over the CUP. Talat, Enver and Cemal quickly passed a law making the CUP the only legal party in the Ottoman Empire. In other words, they had exclusive say over what goes.

This is really a silly argument. It would be like saying the US would never wrongfully invade Iraq or Afghanistan since there are people involved at some level of the government that are against such a decision. Ultimately, it comes down to what Bush wants to do, no matter how many people oppose him, and the rest of the government can kiss off.

If there was a genocide, why were the Armenians in Istanbul, Izmir and other cities spared? It was not because these cities were under foreign observation, there were missionaries, diplomats, journalists in the most distant places of the Ottoman empire as well.

I suggest you study up a bit more on the extent of the deported villages.

If the Armenians are so convinced a genocide occurred, and assuming their typically exemplary character suffers a shortfall by not recognizing the terms of the Leninakan treaty, why don’t they take their case to an international legal body, such as the World Court? I understand the Azerbaijanis took their case of being massacred by the Armenians in the early 1990s to the court in The Hague.

The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) was created in July of '01 with members mutually agreed upon by BOTH Turkey AND Armenia. After gathering evidence for both sides, this committee presented the issue to the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ), who, after studying the evidence, concluded that what happened to the Armenians constituted genocide. Turkey went from supporting this committee, as well as taking this case to the ICTJ, to saying the findings of the ICTJ was invalid simply because they didn't side with them. Look it up for yourself.

So where does this end? If Turkey is going to throw a hissy fit every time they loose a battle like this, what's the point of having a "discussion", or a panel to "look into" this issue? They're going to keep trying till they hear the results they want? "Best 2 out of 3.....ok, 3 out of 5......ok, 4 out of....etc."

Why was every single Ottoman official, incarcerated for war crimes during the nearly two-and-a-half years of the Malta Tribunals, finally acquitted? Especially when they were in the hands of the occupying British force, a country (among others, but mainly it was Lloyd George’s Great Britain) who tried to wipe Turkey off the face of the earth... and every Ottoman document was freely available (before the days “shredding” would come to mind) to the Allies and their crack team of Armenian researchers?

I already address this phony non-existent trial in the Malta Trial thread:

I can’t believe people still try to use this non-existent tribunal as evidence. The “release” of these “suspects” was merely an exchange of prisoners between the British and the Turks neatly offered as an “exhaustive, extensive investigation that found no evidence”. A regretful British Foreign Affairs Minister Lord Curzon explains when he wrote, "The less we say about these people [the Turks detained at Malta] the better…I had to explain why we released the Turkish deportees from Malta skating over thin ice as quickly as I could. There would have been a row I think...The staunch belief among members [of Parliament is] that one British prisoner is worth a shipload of Turks, and so the exchange was excused" (British Foreign Office Archives, FO 371/7882/E4425, folio 182). Had the actually findings of even the SINGLE, tiny inquiry been taken into consideration, this evidence alone would have been damning to the suspects, as British ambassador Aukland Geddes stated on June 1, 1921 that the U.S. archives already contained "a large number of documents on Armenian deportations and massacres" (British Foreign Office Archives, FO 371/6503/E6311, folio 34). The whole thing was a sham.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Some turk said this on anouther forum!

Crimson Glow
You have indeed an indebt knowledge of the subject.
We are all sick and tired of Turkish denialists but we MUST counter them every time they raise their ugly heads. Counter them by NOT engaging in discussions on the subject of Genocide but rather hitting them hard with facts and the truth. Something you've done beautifully.