Questions from Stetson University

[imported_Michael]

My dear site members, I do not intend to offend or incur hostility from anyone here, but only seek to see more clearly both sides of an issue that does not receive enough recognition here in the United States. When I was in high school, I stayed in Baku, Azerbaijan for a little over a month. My host brother was Azeri, as were most of the people I studied with. I also met Azeri soldiers who had been wounded while fighting Armenians, and visited camps of internally displaced persons (from the Nagorno-Karabahk region). Many Azeris mourned their own losses to Armenian troops and Armenian violence, and encouraged me to be their voice back in the U.S. Yet I am starting to see, from sites like this one, that the violence ran both ways. The men and soldiers who my brother Sabuhi (and I do consider him my brother) defended were by no means innocent, yet when considering the history of violence between Azerbaijan and Armenia (and Azerbaijan's ally Turkey, and Armenia's ally Russia), it seems that these men were participating in acts, that while wrong, were part of the ebb and flow between both countries. I believe with all my heart that Turkey and Azerbaijan owe Armenia the recognition of the atrocities they committed--but at the same time, does not Armenia owe Azerbaijan an apology for similar atrocities? Places like "the wall of bullets" in Baku, and the memorial high above the city, are evidence that both countries must change their ways, and do their best to salvage the lives that have been destroyed by religious violence and geo-politics.

I look forward to peaceful responses, and hope that my desire to better understand this conflict has not offended anyone

[Tongue]

Hi Michael… this is a bit long, sorry

So your question is if Armenia owes an apology to Azerbaijan?
Do you know anything about Karabagh’s history?
Karabagh had a pre-war population of approximately 200,000 people, 77% of whom were Christian Armenians. The remaining 23% were mainly Muslim Azeri Turks. Now you’re probably asking, with it’s predominantly Armenian population, how did Karabakh get under Azerbaijan’s control. A brief historical background:

Historically Armenian, Nagorno-Karabagh was connected to Armenia in ancient times, a connection was lost after the division of the Armenian Kingdom in 387 AD. With the rise of Islam in the seventh century, Karabagh fell under Arab rule, where it stayed for 300 years. In the 11th century, Karabagh came under the rule of the Bagratid Kings of Georgia who held it until the Mongol invasion. After 100 years of Mongol rule, Karabagh fell into Turkish hands, where it stayed until the Persians took power in the early 1600s. In 1603, Shah Abbas the Great of Persia allowed local Armenian rule in Karabagh under five meliks (kings). These five kinglets, later joined—but not supplanted—by a Muslim khanate, survived until the Russian conquest of Karabagh in 1828. Under Russian rule, a deliberate effort was made to link Karabagh economically with the "Baku Province," later to be named Azerbaijan. With the withdrawal of Russian power following the Russian democratic revolution in February/March of 1917, Karabagh reemerged as a state, governed by the Assembly of Karabagh Armenians.
The Azerbaijanis, who were trying to organize their own state, contested the Armenians' right to rule Karabagh, even though it was overwhelmingly Armenian. The Azeris first turned for help to the British occupation force led by General Dunsterville, then to the Ottoman army under Nuri Pasha, and finally to the Russian Bolsheviks. With foreign aid, they won out.

So as you can see, Karabagh has been invaded many times, but never lost its Armenian population. When under Azerbaijan’s control, because of its predominantly Armenian population, Azerbaijan neglected Karabagh completely. While it’s surrounding cities were developing, Karabagh stayed in horrible conditions. No money was spent in development of Karabagh, the road conditions were so horrible farmers couldn’t transport their products from one village to another; however, other cities in Azerbaijan were getting much more attention and looked pretty decent. And not just that, its Armenian population was also being treated horribly by Azeri turks. In 1991, Karabagh declared independence from Azerbaijan because of continued persecution, oppression, and human and civil rights violations by the Azeri Turks. 99% of it’s population voted for independence, and according to the law, if the majority of a State’s population wants an independent state, they should get one. However, Azerbaijan denied giving them the right to rule their own state. Why? Does this seem fair to you?

That’s when young Armenian men united with their Armenian brothers in Karabagh and fought for its independence. For better living condition for their people. All Armenia was (and is) asking for is an independent Karabagh and for Azerbaijan to let it be ruled by its own people.

Now, let’s look at how conditions in Karabagh changed after the war. Its GDP growth reached 20 percent in 2003, while the exports amounted to $14 million! Something that would have never happened if it had stayed with Azerbaijan. Every year, in November a 12-hour, live broadcast airing throughout the United States , Europe , Canada , South America , the CIS and the Middle East collects money from Diaspora Armenians for development and constructions in Nagorno Karabagh. In 2004, it raised over $13 million.

We fought the war for our people living and being abused there for many years by Muslim Azeris. We want independence and better living conditions for them, and we’re willing to risk anything to get that.

[imported_Michael]

Thank you for your insights Tongue, but Armenian people wanting better living conditions still does not justify the displacement of tens of thousands of Azeris. Is there no way for Azeris and Armenians to live in Karabagh in peace? Also, the official war for Karabagh started in 1991, yet there have been violent attacks from both sides since the early twentieth century. If not for Karabagh (which I do understand is more Armenian than Azeri), does not Armenia owe apologies for the attacks committed in Baku and other parts of Azerbaijan that are not in Karabagh? The dispute over Karabagh is not justification enough for either side to commit acts of terror.

Is it fair to ask only one country to apologize to its neighbor country for acts that both countries have committed?

[Tongue]

In a perfect world, Turkey will apologize to Armenia, recognize the genocide, perhaps even return our lands, and of course open its border and end the blockade. Azerbaijan will give Karabakh independence and no longer harass the Armenians living there. Azerbaijan will apologize for the events in Sumgait (BTW did your Azeri brother mention anything about the events of February 27-28, 1988?), Azerbaijan will also apologize for ceasefire violations and Armenia will do the same and also apologize for the refugees from karabakh. But we don’t live in a perfect world, do we?

[imported_Michael]

Why bother?

Why bother protesting the denial of genocide if you don't actually expect any acknowledgments to be made? I believe that the "perfect" scenarios you presented could be made to happen. If we do not believe that reconciliation is possible, we have consigned ourselves to an eternity of violence.

[Hovik]

Some thoughts...pt. 1 of 2

Thank you for your insights Tongue, but Armenian people wanting better living conditions still does not justify the displacement of tens of thousands of Azeris.

Michael,
While there is never a justification for such things, they are an unfortunate byproduct of the war. As Tongue so correctly put it, there was a 99% consensus on independence - this too should be taken into consideration.

I don't like that Azeri's were taken from the homes they lived in for centuries and from the land they call home. I want you to notice that I said "the land they call home". The land has been, is, and will always be... Armenian. Those homes that Azeris lived in for all this time should be respected, upon return, their homes and all property should be returned to them. I hope that Armenians in these territories and Azeris (upon Azeri recognition when Azeri's are allowed to return, all citizens will be known as Karabaghcis) will join together as citizens of Karabagh to rebuild the damaged homes, buildings, and religious sites which were destroyed by the war (Not to mention the centuries old Armenian monasteries and cemeteries deliberately demolished by the Azeri Army).

One thing you seem to be uneducated about Michael - as evidenced by your comment "the displacement of tens of thousands of Azeris" - is the Armenian refugee situation. Here is what the OSCE Minsk Group's Fact Finding Mission reported:

The Fact Finding Mission Report affirms the following:
a. "Overall settlement is quite limited." "There is no clear organized resettlement, no non-voluntary resettlement, no recruitment." "… populations the Fact-Finding Mission has interviewed, counted or directly observed are as follows: in Kelbajar District approximately 1,500; in Agdam District from 800 to 1,000, in Fizuli District under 10; in Jebrail District under 100; in Zangelan District from 700 to 1,000; and in Kubatly District from 1,000 to 1,500…In Lachin, the Fact Finding Mission estimates that there are fewer than 8,000 people living in the district overall."
b. The co-chairs say, "The mission did not determine that such settlement has resulted from a deliberate policy by the government of Armenia." The Report says, "The Fact-Finding Mission has seen no evidence of direct involvement by the authorities of Armenia in the territories."
c. Those settlers who have found refuge in these territories are primarily from regions of Azerbaijan: "The Fact-Finding Mission has concluded that the overwhelming majority of settlers are displaced persons from various parts of Azerbaijan, notably, from Shahumian (Goranboy) Getashen (Chaikent)-now under Azerbaijani control - and Sumgait and Baku."

In light of these conclusions, we note that the total number of settlers is insignificant given that there are over 400,000 Armenian refugees as a result of the conflict.

taken from here

Please don't forget the flip side to the coin Michael. I live in a medium sized midwestern town in the US. In our town alone there are about 500 Armenian refugees from Baku. Many of their family members were slaughtered by Azeris when the war broke out. Please be sure to read about the massacres of Armenians at the start of the Azeri war. Now you will have a very difficult time finding an Armenian in Baku. I don't recall there being any massacres of Azeris in Yerevan! Can anyone argue this? Well anyway, there are thousands of refugees on both sides. I just ask that you look at the situation objectively enough to understand these things. So now tell us, does the desire for better living conditions warrant the displacement of 400,000 Armenians from their homes in Azerbaijan?

Is there no way for Azeris and Armenians to live in Karabagh in peace?

Yes, actually, there is a very easy way for this to happen. I have visited the green line personally a few months ago, and will go to the front lines in Artsakh (Historical name of the Karabagh Territory) again in less than a month. In interviewing Armenians, in the fringe border villages, they are very disappointed in the situation. I was clearly told by an overwhelming majority of Armenians on these fringes that the Azeri villages several hundred meters away were once (not too long ago) where they could say some of their "closest" friends live. They did business together; they spent time in each other’s villages visiting, enjoying each other’s company, etc. This is not limited to villages in the Tavush Region, I have heard the stories from all over the Eastern border, as well as in Artsakh. There is not a doubt in my mind that if Azeris recognize that Karabagh has a right to self-determination (taking care of itself since Azeri government neglected it), these refugees will return to their homes with full rights of any citizen in Karabagh, but under the proper governance. I look forward to this day, when Armenians and Azeris will again live in peace, side-by-side, as friends - but we have to have our rights recognized.

(continued)

[Hovik]

Some Thoughts... part 2 of 2

Also, the official war for Karabagh started in 1991, yet there have been violent attacks from both sides since the early twentieth century. If not for Karabagh (which I do understand is more Armenian than Azeri), does not Armenia owe apologies for the attacks committed in Baku and other parts of Azerbaijan that are not in Karabagh?

First, you talk about the violent attacks, please state which attacks Armenians committed against Azeris in the twentieth century, and Azeri's against Armenians. You need to lay that out before it can be addressed.

What attacks committed in Baku? Why don't we talk about the massacres in Sumgait? an estimated 30,000 Armenians were butchered (some say more, some say less). Did Baku apologize? I didn't read a memo on that.

Your brother may have told you what happened in Kholjali during the Karabagh war. I want to talk about this. Azeris have gone so far as the call what happened in the period of 12 hours there "Genocide". I think they should look up the definition of the word "Genocide". Azeris have presented no evidece, which demonstrates Armenian groups intent to destroy the Azeri race, either in whole or in part - as the definition states. Kholjali was surely a massacre on the part of rebellious Armenian soldiers. I condemn the massacre, I call on all Armenians to condemn it as well. I honor those innocent Azeris that died in that attack - may God rest their souls. Furthermore, for what it is worth, I apologize to the Azeri people and particularly the people of Kholjali for what happened. Now, with what I am about to say I beg readers not to misunderstand as a Justification - there are NO justifications. Armenian soldiers were not all from Armenia proper. Many, or maybe in some cases MOST of the Armenians in these fighting groups were from the same villages they were fighting in or nearby. Their families were still in those villages, trying to survive the day-to-day grad rocket attacks from the Azeri Army. Did your brother ever tell you how the Azeri Army would fire their tanks and Grad Rockets at farmers and other innocent civilians in the area? They would advance just enough to get within rocket range so they could take innocent life. And what about when Azeris captured a village, which happened frequently as territorial control changed hands frequently - how they would massacre civilians right along with captured or surrendered combatants? Where were the rules of war then? How about the family of 5 driving through the village near Martuni who were stopped by Azeri soldiers, they were unarmed and fleeing their homes. They were burned alive in their car - a father mother and children. By the way, weeks later when Armenian soldiers had captured Azeri combatants in a nearby village, neighbors of the burnt family came requesting 4-5 captured Azeri soldiers for matagh (Sacrifice) to see retribution for what happened to the Armenian family that was burnt to death. Their request was denied and the captured were shortly thereafter returned safely in exchange for Armenian troops. Don't forget, Armenian soldiers witnessed their neighbors executed in the most gruesome ways by the Azeri Army. In their eyes, what happened in Khogali was meant to perhaps even the score. But even with that mentality, Khogali came nowhere near evening any score. In that sense Azeris had a body count of innocents that couldn't have been matched by the most barbaric army that side of the Mediterranean. Armenians had a duty to respect these civilians, and to be the better army in all things, no matter how low the Azeris got. That is my opinion, and who am I? Where was I when that war was taking place? I can't say what I would do until I walked in their shoes. Perhaps if Azeri soldiers massacred my innocent family I would think differently. Anyway, there you have it.

The dispute over Karabagh is not justification enough for either side to commit acts of terror.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree with you. Both sides should be punished, although it is doubtful that either side will be.

Is it fair to ask only one country to apologize to its neighbor country for acts that both countries have committed?

Absolutely not. I wouldn't expect that from either country. However, to my knowledge this is not the case. I don't think there were equal acts on both sides. As I stated above what happened to the 30,000 Armenians of Sumgait, not to mention the earlier massacres of 20,000 Armenians of Shushi and the destruction of the city - cannot be compared to any act by Armenians, especially within the Republic of Armenia. Incomparable. I do however, believe Armenians and Azeris alike, in an ideal situation should apologize for atrocities committed on both sides. I just believe in this case the balance of death and destruction leans well in the direction of Baku.


In closing, I would like to state that I wish for peace. These two nations have fought over this land long enough. Lets cut our losses (we both have too many), shake hands, and get back to work together on the things that are important. Otherwise, we aren't going anywhere. One thing I will say, that land runs in the blood of every Armenian. It is surely not in the heart of Azeris. There are many Azeris who love it, who have lived there for many years and wish to continue to, I hope they do - but it is Armenian land - has been and will be. We are done being kicked around by Turks who steal everything we have. Its time to write a new chapter in the history of Armenians, a chapter where we refuse to be pushed around. When Turks realize that Armenians have changed, and aren't going to submit to their tyranny anymore, only this will bring about peace. When that happens, I look forward to welcoming Azeris again as neighbors and friends.

-Hovik

[Hovik]

another reply to smile

these people have eaten their minds with war and genocide they arent up to day person they arent fan of ğeace .all the time they are true they do no mistakes.(i wondered them because people do mistake)they only defense their self.world need peace leave like this threads turks and armenians.they are both guily.what happened after living in same place over 400 years.i think everybody knows.emperyalism.this is the enemy.u are welcome although u havent accept your mistakes my friends.come turkey iwill help u for seeing your ancestors cities.u are welcome

Since Turkey is so humble, why don't you start listing the mistakes that Turkey has admitted guilt for regarding Armenians... we are all dying to hear...

I think you mean fans of "Peace". So, are fans of peace (Turkey) the largest suppliers of military aid to a country (Azerbaijan) that is trying to break the cease-fire between Azerbaijan and Armenia, while Minsk Group is trying to find a PEACEful solution?

Since you say Turkey and Armenia are both guilty, why don't you start by telling us what you think Turkey is guilty of? We are all dying to hear what mistakes Turkey has accepted!

I doubt Armenians were happy with the outcome after 400 years of peace - leaving their ancestral homeland.

I don't understand what your post has anything to do with the subject and content of this thread. You may want to be more selective on what catagory to post in...

[Hovik]

Who were the Armenians "hitting Turkey (I think you mean Ottomans unless you are trying to say Turkey is guilty of the Genocide) from the back?"
Were they civilians or were they a handful of volunteer defenders? Either answer you give you are trapped. There can be NO justification of Genocide, for the butchering of innocent people. Does your theory explain why Armenians hundreds of miles to the west in Constantinople who were intellectuals were slaughtered? NO it doesn't! Give evidence to explain how Armenians massacred "anatolian people" in Armenian Anatolia? And I don't want to see your coloring book documents or website "archives", give us some eyewitness THIRD PARTY accounts of what Armenians did to "Anatolian" people.

So basically the only one of my MANY questions you didn't dodge was what Turkey is guilty of and you answer??? They are guilty of defending themselves against Armenian Attackers... I guess in that case Armenians are guilty of defending themselves and asking for Russians to help defend them from unprovoked Ottoman attacks from your "Secret Organization" - a band of criminals and lunatics formed by the Ottoman Government with the order to DESTROY ARMENIANS one and all.

Nice, I have little respect for someone who is scared to answer my questions and address my points. I will no longer waist my time dealing with your ignorance.

Next please...

[Hovik]

sad - pathetic

after armenian hit turkey from the back and massarced anatolian people in anatolian for their unconcious dreams, i can say that turkish could have given a defend attact

Again failing to answer to my last post! There is nothing you can say short of blatant lie that goes any reasonable length towards admitting Turkeys guilt with regards to Armenian events. You dodge the question every time... the way of the denialist... or more correct - the transparent denialist... Alright lets all watch how smile & company change the topic this time...