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the awful truth

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  • #11
    Originally posted by smileatlife
    i think u dont know the situations of that time and dont know what turkish do in war times to learn it search independence war
    oh I know it well my friend I was taught that in the turkish history books but I don't think u know or u don't wanna know. Ask somebody old how many Armenians were there in your village 80-60-40 years ago ?
    I recommend u read PROF. DR. HALIL BERKTAY's studies .He's a Kemalist historian...read my freind read

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    • #12
      dont forget that mhp fans are kemalist too. it changes nothing.the important thing is ishe a human as a human and says right with no being a group fan

      Comment


      • #13
        yes if u read his studies I'm sure u could understand that he's not a fan of anybody.He's a historian who believes that the truth should be told "both ways" and there's only one truth ...and as u know Ataturk was one of the first ones to recognize the armenian sufferings as he made sure some of the responsible parties got punished...isn't it funny that in Ataturks modern turkey those that followed him chose to deny what their founder had accepted

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        • #14
          show me when Ataturk accepted the story of armenian genocide find me eyewitness

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          • #15
            The interview that Ataturk gave to a reporter of Los Angeles Examiner in 1926 it's in one of PROF. DR. HALIL BERKTAY's published researches but clearly Ataturk did not use the word massacre or genocide instead he said the wrong doings to our Armenian citizens..check it out u might learn few things...
            and clarly I haven't seen anybody use a foul language here by doing that u s prove yourself wrong

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            • #16
              Originally posted by kroisos
              Ulen bu nemesis yavsagi tam yalanci. Bunalrin isi gucu yalan.
              Ama seferberlik kosullarinda bütün bunlar da vardi...

              - Var tabii, ama bu neyi halleder ki? Devlet, Ermenileri zorla göçürüyorsa ve sonra bu insanlarin önemli bir bölümü açliktan ve susuzluktan ölüyorsa, bu bile çok ciddi bir sekilde devletin suçu kategorisine giriyor.

              Peki bizzat Talat, Enver ve Cemal Pasa mi istedi bu katliamlarin yapilmasini?

              - Evet, bunlarin emir ve talimatiyla yapildigina dair ipuçlari içeren belgeler var.

              TALAT PASA’NIN TELGRAFI

              Planli katliam oldugunu gösteren belge var mi?

              - Evet. Bakin söyle bir tablo billurlasmaktadir gözlerimizin önünde. Bu katliamlarin düzenlenis tarzinin, yine resmi tezler için son derece rahatsiz edici bir biçimde çok sayida yerel gözlemcisi vardir. Bütün bunlar, ‘Ermeni propagandasidir’ diye dislaniyor. Bunun için ben uzun uzadiya binlerce belgeyi bulan bu gözlem ve tanikliklar üzerinde hiç durmak istemiyorum. Benim bütün söylesilerimde dile getirip tahlil ettigim Talat Pasa’ya ait bir telgraf var. Bu telgraf, Basbakanlik Devlet Arsivleri Genel Müdürlügü’nün 1994 yilinda yayimladigi ‘Osmanli Belgelerinde Ermeniler’ kitabinda yer aliyor.

              Devlet tarafindan yayimlanan bir kitapta yani...

              - Bu telgraf, katliamlarin nasil bilinçli yapildiginin somut bir göstergesidir. Bu telgrafin anlami, olaya bagimsiz ve vicdanli bir biçimde bakan bütün bagimsiz tarihçiler için çok açiktir. Ben on, yirmi, otuz, kirk, elli, yüz, yüz elli kisilik böyle bir jüri önünde, en titiz, noter tasdikli Ingilizce ve Fransizca çeviriler temelinde, bütün devlet avukati tarihçilere ve emekli diplomatlara karsi kendi yorum ve tahlilimi tek basima savunmaya hazirim.

              GÖNÜL ALMAK GEREKIR

              Sorunun çözümü için sizin somut öneriniz nedir?

              - Bence söylenebilecek biricik anlamli seyler dizisi sudur: ‘Evet, anlasiliyor ki, 1915-1916’da böyle korkunç bir olay cereyan etmistir. Bundan derin bir üzüntü duyuyoruz. Ancak bir kere bundan, bugünkü Türkiye Cumhuriyeti ilmen, aklen, vicdanen sorumlu tutulamaz. Osmanli Imparatorlugu baska bir devletti, Türkiye Cumhuriyeti baska bir devlettir. Ikincisi, 1915-16 bundan doksan yil öncedir. Simdiki nesillerin hafiza kusagi içinde dahi yer almamaktadir. Bu, tarihsel bir olaydir, yani artik bir bilimsel arastirma ve tartismanin konusudur. Bu meselenin Türkiye’de özgürce, kimse psikolojik terör bombardimanina maruz kalmadan tartisilmasini istiyoruz.’

              Sizce ise yarar mi?

              - Sözünü ettigim bu önerilerle, yeni bir söz düellosuna girmek arasinda çok büyük fark var. Türkiye’nin çesitli söylemlerinde, 1915’te çok üzücü olaylar yasandigina dair ifadeler zaten var. Ama bu öyle bir tavirla söyleniyor ki, samimi olduklarina inanmak mümkün degil. Ermenilerin de korkunç yara ve acilari olduguna dair en ufak bir gönül alicilik, en ufak bir samimiyet duygusu ve tonlamasi yok. Dünya aptal degil. Bunun yerine artik gerçek bir samimiyeti geçirmek gerekiyor.

              Devletin suçu

              Bir kere devlet, Ermenileri yerlerinden yurtlarindan göçürüyorsa ve sonra bu insanlarin önemli bir bölümü açliktan ve susuzluktan ölüyorsa, bu bile çok ciddi bir sekilde devletin suçu kategorisine giriyor. Bunun ne kadarinin kasitli, ne kadarinin kasitsiz oldugunu bilmek mümkün degil.

              Türkiye suçlanamaz

              ‘Evet, anlasiliyor ki, 1915-1916’da böyle korkunç bir olay cereyan etmistir. Bundan derin bir üzüntü duyuyoruz. Ancak bir kere bundan, bugünkü Türkiye Cumhuriyeti ilmen, aklen, vicdanen sorumlu tutulamaz. Osmanli baska bir devletti, Türkiye baska bir devlettir.’

              Mustafa Kemal katliami kinayanlar grubundandi

              Amerikali bir gazetecinin Mustafa Kemal’le yaptigi söylesi var bir de. Daha sonra öyle bir söylesinin olmadigi iddia edildi...

              - 1926 yilinda Los Angeles Examiner gazetesinde Mustafa Kemal’le yapilan bir röportaj yayinlaniyor. O sirada muhalif Ittihatçilar yargilanip idam cezalarina çarptirilmis durumda. Öyle anlasiliyor ki, Amerikali gazeteci bunun anlamini soruyor. Mustafa Kemal de, ‘Bizim bugün yargilamakta oldugumuz insanlar, geçmiste de Osmanli Imparatorlugu’nun Hiristiyan ahalisine karsi korkunç zulümlerin ve katliamlarin mimarlari olan insanlardir’ diyor. 1980’lerde, Asala terörünün doruklarda oldugu ve Türk devletinin en defansif konuma çekildigi bir dönemde, Türkkaya Ataöv ve baskalari tarafindan bu röportajin tamamen hayali oldugu iddia edildi. Mülakatin gerçek oldugu çok açik. Kullanilan ifade o kadar Mustafa Kemal ki, ayrica siyasi zeká o kadar Mustafa Kemal ki, Bati nezdinde mesruiyet arama anlayisi o kadar Mustafa Kemal ki, Los Angeles’ta oturan bir gazetecinin bunu hayalinden uydurabilmesi mümkün degil. Bu mülakattan biz Mustafa Kemal’in de Ermeni katliamlarini kinayanlar grubunda yer aldigini ögreniyoruz.

              Iki ülke insani, ‘öteki’ni hangi kaynaktan taniyor

              TESEV ile HASA’nin anketi, iki ülke vatandaslarinin birbirlerine dair bilgilenme kaynaklari konusunda da ilginç ipuçlari veriyor. Buna göre, gerek Türkler gerekse Ermeniler, ‘öteki’ hakkindaki bilgilerini gazete-televizyon araciligiyla ve tarih kitaplarindan ediniyorlar. Ermenilerde bu oran yüzde 92.7’ye kadar yükselirken, Türkler’de yüzde 48’le sinirli kaliyor. Ermenistanli katilimcilar açisindan dikkat çekici bir baska önemli kaynak ise eski kusaklar ve aile büyükleri. Ermeni katilimcilarin yüzde 58.1’i Türkiye ve Türklerle ilgili bilgilerini bu yolla ediniyor. Ayni konuda Türkler’deki oran yüzde 7.2.

              Peki günümüzde mevcut Türkiye-Ermenistan iliskileri nasil degerlendiriliyor acaba? Durumu ‘çok kötü’ olarak nitelendiren Ermenilerin orani yüzde 18.9, Türkler’in orani ise yüzde 6.6. Iki ülke iliskilerini ‘kötü’ olarak degerlendiren daha genis bir dagilim gösteriyor. Türkler’de bu oran yüzde 30.8, Ermeniler’de ise yüzde 60.4.

              PROF. DR. HALIL BERKTAY

              1947 yilinda dogan Berktay, Robert Kolej’den sonra, Yale Üniversitesi’nde tarih dalinda lisans ve yüksek lisans, Birmingham Üniversitesi’nde ise doktora yapti. Yurtiçinde Ankara Siyasal Bilgiler ve ODTܒde, yurtdisinda Birmingham ve Harvard’da dersler verdi. Bir süre de Bogaziçi Üniversitesi Atatürk Enstitüsü’nde çalisti. Prof. Berktay, Tarih Vakfi ile Helsinki Yurttaslar Dernegi kurucu üyesidir. Ayrica, Toplumsal Tarih Dergisi’nin ve Journal of Peasant Studies’in yazi kurulunda yer aliyor.

              I apologize for the article it's in Turkish published by a well respected Turkish historian
              documenting that the then ruling party had carried out this cleansing and knowingly

              Comment


              • #17
                Originally posted by smileatlife
                was there anybody who didnt sufffer between 1914 1918 in anatolian show me and turkish youth were in the war.women and old people...they have no deffence.there was nograduated students from galatasaray lise in those years may be women killed armenian
                true war is a bad thing a lot of people suffered both Turks and Armenians and we should move on once we all accept our responsibilities but you cannot cuss when somebody is trying to give u his point of view and then shift the subject to all human suffering

                Comment


                • #18
                  nemesis i think u had been read that before what Armenians did TURKİSH people they cut pregnant took their babies out they took beatiful women with them and killed civils for entertainment.there are Russians generals letters about these.
                  n Turk archieve also u can see itiandeyewitness to accept or not it is your decasion

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by smileatlife
                    nemesis i think u had been read that before what Armenians did TURKİSH people they cut pregnant took their babies out they took beatiful women with them and killed civils for entertainment.there are Russians generals letters about these.
                    n Turk archieve also u can see itiandeyewitness to accept or not it is your decasion
                    change the subject again before you said there was no acceptance by any Turkish official now that you learned that the founder of Turkey admitted that (actually not only Ataturk all history books in Turkey acknowledge the fact and suggest all responsible parties were punished) you're playing a game.. "yes but Armenians killed too" type of childish defense...

                    It's strange also that although Armenians have thousand of witnesses both foreign and armenian we are yet to see any concrete evidence of what you're suggesting..

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Another denialist
                      they seemto be dime a dozen!
                      "All truth passes through three stages:
                      First, it is ridiculed;
                      Second, it is violently opposed; and
                      Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                      Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

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