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from the medieval ages there was a dispute between armenians and greeks because we (the greeks) always see ourselves as the leaders of the orthodox christianity ,something that the other christians don't like.
This has nothing to do with turkey.
Answer to questions that i made.

**Joseph** · 04-22-2008, 05:35 AM

At certain times Greeks and Armenians have had animosities at the political level, especially during the Byzantine era but for the most part, we respect each other and have strong bonds. I consider Greeks my friends. I will admit that prior to the Seljuk incursions, there was a lot of infighting: Greek versus Armenian, Armenian versus Armenian, Greek versus Greek and so forth as the Byzantine Empire stretched and contracted, small and short-lived principalities were formed and so on.

The religious differences are all about insignificant pieces of dogma that are today very laughable.

The clergymen in Jerusalem, Armenian and Greek are acting like children and I think were all agree on this and are embarrassed by their conduct.

**Greekaiser** · 04-22-2008, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by Joseph View Post

At certain times Greeks and Armenians have had animosities at the political level, especially during the Byzantine era but for the most part, we respect each other and have strong bonds. I consider Greeks my friends. I will admit that prior to the Seljuk incursions, there was a lot of infighting: Greek versus Armenian, Armenian versus Armenian, Greek versus Greek and so forth as the Byzantine Empire stretched and contracted, small and short-lived principalities were formed and so on.

The religious differences are all about insignificant pieces of dogma that are today very laughable.

The clergymen in Jerusalem, Armenian and Greek are acting like children and I think were all agree on this and are embarrassed by their conduct.

I totally agree my friend.

These disputes exist between all christians and i think that this is typical matters.
If the greek priests stop stealing money and armenians and arabs get used to the fact that at least the patriarch is greek then i think that the condition will be better.

**hitite** · 04-28-2008, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Greekaiser View Post

As for the greek-turkish war ,yes there were some massacres from greek army against innocent turk civilians, mainly during to the retreat phase. In wars these things happen ,usually to both sides. But as you can understand since we lost ,our people were victims of extensive violence, especially in Smyrna. This was a war.

BUT what happened to the armenians of Van ,to the greeks of Pontos ,to the assyrians was NOT war but genocide planned by the young turks and taken advantage of the war. During WW1 until 1917 there was not war between turkey and greece but yet the christians of turkey suffered greatly in the hands of the fascists young turks. These genocides had no other goal than turning ottoman empire to a muslim inhabited land.

The gray wolves were the successors of these young turks. Turkey should face the reality, should face the past. Gray wolves should face trial.

I agree to most of the above. There is a huge Greek vaccuum in our Aegean region. There are many villages that had populations of thousands that are barely inhabited right now; mainly by old people. Greeeks did suffer more. I understand the Greeks that welcomed the invading Greek army, it would have been the same for anybody in the same situation and this same welcoming of this invading army left them in a very bad situation when the Greek army was defeated and left. That whole story or population exchange is an extremely sad one especially for the Greeks. I too have relatives that had to come from Thessaloniki leaving their land and belongings back then and also have realtives that had to flee due to the advance of Axis forces during WWII.

How do you suggest millions of nationalists in Turkey face trial?

**hitite** · 04-28-2008, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Greekaiser View Post

If the greek priests stop stealing money and armenians and arabs get used to the fact that at least the patriarch is greek then i think that the condition will be better.

Do all the Orthodox Christians "have to" accept the patriarch is Greek? Just curious...

**hitite** · 04-28-2008, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Greekaiser View Post

The muslims of Greece have the same rights with the rest with the exception of the learning of language and history in schools. Of course they can speak their language but they just learn greek in schools.

Do you deny that the majority of "Muslims in Greece" are Turks? Do you call them the Turkish minority or just suffice to call them Muslim Greeks? If you dont call them Turks then HTF can you even argue about Turkey giving all the gazillions of minorities their minority rights when you are suppressing your own Turkish minority? Turkey may be way down the drain but Greece aint far behind, I can tell you that buddy.

**Joseph** · 04-28-2008, 12:41 PM

The Last Church Standing in North Cyprus

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080428/32154_The_Last_Church_Standing_in_North_Cyprus.htm

One lone church struggles to survive in a land where hundreds have been damaged or destroyed But this is no ordinary land; it is the very area where Apostle Paul took his first missionary journey to ...

The Last Church Standing in North Cyprus

How the Christian History was Erased

By Michelle A. Vu

Christian Post Reporter

Mon, Apr. 28 2008 04:09 PM ET

One lone church struggles to survive in a land where hundreds have been damaged or destroyed. But this is no ordinary land; it is the very ground where Apostle Paul took his first missionary journey to proclaim salvation through Jesus Christ to the Roman Empire.

Now 2,000 years later, the small Mediterranean island of Cyprus is divided into two with the northern third occupied by Turkey. In the span of three decades under Turkish control, more than 530 churches and monasteries have been pillaged, vandalized, or destroyed in the northern area, according to The Republic of Cyprus.

�I cannot say that it (destruction of churches) is encouraged openly by the Turkish government,� said Cyprus�s Ambassador to the United States, Andreas Kakouris, to The Christian Post. �All I can say is that it is taking place in the area that is under direct control of the Turkish military and I leave you to make your own conclusions from that.�

Since its 1974 invasion, Turkey has controlled northern Cyprus which it calls the �Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.� No international nation has ever recognized this entity except for Turkey. The United States has only recognized the Republic of Cyprus.

Starting in 2003, Greek-Cypriots again were allowed to cross the border between the Republic of Cyprus and the area under Turkish control. It was around this time that scholars and photographers were able to visit northern Cyprus to document the destruction of historic churches and artifacts.

St. Mamas Church in the northwest town of Morphou is the only notable church that is known to be semi-active in Turkey-controlled Cyprus, according to the New York-based Hellenic Times and the Embassy of The Republic of Cyprus in the United States. Turkish officials who rule the area reportedly give permission twice a year for remaining residents � who were there before Turkish occupation � to worship in the church.

But other churches did not fare so well.

About 133 churches, chapels and monasteries have been converted to military storage facilities, stables and night-clubs. Seventy-eight churches have been converted to mosques, and dozens more are used as military facilities, medical storage facilities, or stockyards or hay barns, according to statistics from The Republic of Cyprus.

Agia Anastasia church in Lapithos was converted into a hotel and casino, while Sourp Magar Armenian monastery � founded in the medieval period � was converted into a cafeteria.

A Neolithic settlement at the Cape of Apostolos Andreas-Kastros in the occupied area of Rizokapraso � a site declared an ancient monument by the Republic of Cyprus � was bulldozed by the Turkish Army in order to plant two of its flagpoles on top of the historic hill.

�This is not a Muslim-Christian issue,� contends Ambassador Kakouris, who is a Greek Orthodox Christian.

Turkey, a constitutionally secular country, is made up of more than a 99 percent Muslim population, according to the CIA World Factbook. �I don�t think the Cyprus problem has ever been a religious issue between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots,� said Kakouris.

But he added that if the Turkish government hadn�t given the �green light� on the destruction of churches and artifacts, they have not given the �red light� either.

�So it is � either directly taking place or with their blind eye or whatever you want to call it. But they are responsible for what is taking place there,� says Kakouris.

Furthermore, over 15,000 portable religious icons were stolen and auctioned off around the world.

Relics � which include fine icons, mosaics and frescoes from ancient Byzantine era � have turned up at auction houses around the world, including at the prestigious Sotheby�s in New York.

In January 2007, six icons were returned to the Church of Cyprus after being smuggled out of the country. They were to be put up for auction at Sotheby�s.

Also, back in 1988, four pieces of an invaluable work of art, dating between 525 and 530 A.D., were recovered when a Turkish art dealer offered to sell it to an American antique dealer for $1 million. The American dealer contacted the Paul Getty Museum in Malibu to resell the mosaics for $20 million. The museum then informed the Cypriot Church about the art work.

In the end, the United States courts ruled that the Cypriot Church was the legitimate owner of the pieces, and they are now shown in the Byzantine Museum of Nicosia.

It is estimated that more than 60,000 ancient artifacts have been illegally transferred to other countries, according to the Republic of Cyprus. Sadly, most of these artifacts were not recovered.

Cyprus has some of the finest collections of Byzantine art in the world, offering scholars and others the priceless study on the development of Byzantine wall-painting art from the 8th-9th century until the 18th century A.D.

The United States has recognized Cyprus� endangered cultural heritage, and in 1999 and 2003 the U.S. Treasury Department issued emergency import restrictions on Byzantine Ecclesiastical and Ritual Ethnological Materials from Cyprus.

Then in 2002, the United States and Cyprus signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) concerning the import restrictions on pre-classical and classical archeological objects from Cyprus. The MOU was amended and renewed in 2006 and 2007 to include additional artifacts.

Kakouris commented that the Cyprus issue has been ignored for decades by the United States.

�There is only so much oxygen that exists from a journalistic point of view,� he said. �When one picks up the paper and looks at international issues what does one see? Either a bombing that took place in the Middle East or a bombing in Iraq or loss of life in Afghanistan � issues such as that.

He continued, �Although there are issues that appear to be more important than the Cyprus issue � because we don�t have that immediacy of seeing deaths or events on a daily basis in Cyprus, and thankfully � that does not make the continuing occupation by Turkey of the northern part of Cyprus any more acceptable.�

There were 20,000 Greek Cypriots in the Turkish-controlled area after 1974, but today there are about 450 Greek Cypriots remaining.

Over 80 percent of the Republic of Cyprus population is Christian. While the island population is only 800,000, it is a major tourist attraction, drawing over 2 million tourists each year.

**hitite** · 04-28-2008, 08:35 PM

The situation is pretty much the same for Ottoman, Turkish mosques, buildings and artifacts in Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Saudia Arabia etc.

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