Origins of the Armenian Genocide (short essay)

[1.5 million]

As for the claims of Armenian treachery - in fact it was the opposite (The CUP/Ottomans "stabbed the Armenians in the back"). The Armenians were the "loyal millet" who contributed much to Ottoman society and were trusted and capable. They participated with the (early incarnations of the) CUP in attempting to bring a new order with greater rights and privileges to all citizens of the Empire. But (after the 1909 Islamic student counter-revolution protesting equal rights for Christians) the CUP was co-opted by the evil threesome and their henchmen who were racially motivated by Golkap's Pan Turkism and who saw the European interest in the Armenians (who had been massacred numerous times in the 19th Century) as unacceptable internal meddling in the Ottoman Empire (and rightly feared European designs on portions of this Empire potentially using the mistreatment of the Christians as leverage). Thus they figured to rid themselves and the Empire of the Armenian "threat" (not a military, but political threat – the Armenians were never a military threat – this is a concocted story) and this would pave the way for Turkification of their Empire and joining to their Eastern cousins. This is the correct history and that which is accepted by unbiased historians of this period. It is clear and truthful. Your fanciful claims (of Armenian revlot and large scale/significant 5th colomn activity behind the Turkish lines) are only a repetition of Turkish wartime propaganda that could not take hold even then - because there was no evidence to back it up! - Even the allies of the Turks - the Germans and the Austrians noted the brutal (and undeserving) treatment of the Armenians by the Turks - and not the other way around.

[1.5 million]

Regarding Turkish blame of the Russians and such for the Armenian Genocide

(this is an exerpt of my response in an online discussion of the Armenian Genocide with a Jewish friend who was floating the idea that Turkish fears of Russian aspirations could perhaps be blamed for causing/instigating the Armenian Genocide)

...it was not the Russians who deported and massacres Armenians through an organized, State sponsored campaign – it was clearly the Turks and just the Turks (with perhaps arguably certain German offical involvement). Do the Jews blame Britain, France and Russia for the inequities of the Versailles Treaty which led to the horrific German debt and commercial restrictions which precipitated the fall of the Weimar Republic and the rise of Hitler and Nazism? Do they blame them for failing to let Jews from Palestine organize and fight the Germans until very late in the war? Do they blame them for the persistent anti-Semitism which delayed aid to the suffering Jews (due to dis-belief etc.) and allowed cooperation (and competition for and protection of [Jewish slave using] scientists etc.) with Nazis after the war? Etc.

Well – I for one am very resentful of particularly Russian self-serving meddling and betrayals and British and French (and even American - post war...) betrayals as well – though I understand some of the factors for withdrawing support etc. – I am still bitter about these things and from these actions realize that Armenians can never count on any outside power as these powers will only act in their limited self-interests. The idealist and humanitarian types (such as Pres. Wilson was) are few and far between and are usually not effective (for long) or consistently influential. Yet, the Genocide of Armenians was planned and executed by the Turks (with some German involvement and perhaps instigation) and was just as brutal, just as racist and criminal, just as unjustified as the German Genocide of Jews. One tangential point I would like to also make here is that Armenians lost not only life and property – but were driven from their historical and cultural homeland as well. How would the Jews feel if they were denied Israel (again) in this manner as part of an act of Genocide? There is an additional hurt for Armenians in this regard (and in addition to the Turks denying that any of this ever occurred – can you not see and sympathize with this?)

I have often seen the arguments as to who suffered more etc between Armenians and Jews – this is a meaningless comparison. Each Genocide was brutal and horrifying to the people who suffered it. Some Armenians say that “Jews were killed quick by gas chambers” etc – vs Armenians who were force marched and brutalized etc. - well they don’t understand the greater similarities. Jews were also rounded up and shipped (usually by rail...but also death marched later in the war...) – they were forced to work in labor camps (as were Armenians) with little food and under brutal conditions – and were in fact not just gassed quickly (until perhaps near the end of the war – as many Armenians were just slaughtered in/near their homes or taken out and drowned en-mass and asphyxiated en-mass by smoke in caves and in churches) . Perhaps there are certain aspects to the primitive brutality suffered by Armenians which one could consider “worse” – such as the intense suffering (and mass rape) of the women and children on the forced deportations without food or water and the constant attacks and brutalizing – but Jews suffered similar brutalities – witness the insane medical experimentation, Jews being used to test weapons against, etc. An interesting aside is that both the German and Turks medical professions were involved in sadistic experiments and Genocide activities. And while there are significant differences between the Holocaust and the Armenain Genocide there are far more similarities. The same is true for the tactics and assertions in denial of each - with the fact that no rational feeling or knowing people would ever take credence in Holocaust denial - while the Turkish State actively pursues such in the international arena - politically and with paid stooge (so-called) scholars and historians and with internal (mis) education where the Armenian Genocide is completely and falsely turned on its head and Armenains are blamed entirely for the whole affair. Nothing could be more vile and disgusting to Armenians and to thinking and feeling people of any nationality or humanity.

This all brings me to your position concerning the Armenian Genocide and the events surrounding WWI. I admit that I am somewhat confused and unsure concerning what you believe and the Gist of your statements. You agree there was Genocide of Armenians by Turks (this point seems so obvious to me in so many ways I don’t see how any sane non-biased person could disagree with this assertion). And, I assume, that you understand that Genocide is a deliberate act to ethnically cleanse (such a weasel word type of phrase) and basically exterminate (or at least remove the presence of) a particular people (ethnic or religious or “other” type of group) from a particular place. If you believe these things how is it that you are not condemning these actions (by the Turks) using the harshest, most strident possible terms? You seem to be of the opinion (though it is not clear to me if you really do accept the flimsy and concocted Turkins counter-chargers that were so weak and unsupported that their German allies could not even use them for propoganda in all but the most vaugest manner) that somehow Armenians were responsible for the same sorts of genocidal acts against the Turks. Do you believe this? (and why? Just because Turks say so? Please - their lies have been pervasive since even during this time...) I am aware of atrocities committed by Russian troops (with Russian Armenian and perhaps some Ottoman Armenian irregular involvement) advancing into and retreating from Anatolia – however these are comparatively isolated instances in a give and take of a rather brutal war – which IMO – had little to do with the deportation and Genocide of the hundreds of thousands to millions of Armenians (& Greeks & Assyrians) from all zones – not just the Eastern Front. Armenians revolutionary/secessionist activity was basically a joke. It wasn’t widely supported among the Ottoman Armenian community and it wasn’t particularly effective. It was used as an excuse by the Turks to begin so-called (couldn’t help myself ) “deportations” which really were a manifestation of an attempt to achieve Turkish quazi racial purity (as Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians – being Christian with unique cultural and community identities clearly were not). By clearing the groups from Anatolia proper they hoped to forestall any question of separatism which the Turks feared would be opposed on them from the eventual victorious Allied Powers and to end the “Armenian” question once and for all (or in victory - as Enver so believed in - the Pan-Turan dream of a new Turkick Empire from the Agean to the Gobi desert would be fulfiled). There was no military necessity for any of these actions (as the secret German correspondence and the evidence from the Ottoman post-military tribunals clearly prove), there was no corresponding Armenian “crimes” of any significance (why deport/slaughter Pontian Greeks and Assyrians and Nestorians as well then?). Can you not see that all of this baggage amounts to no more than an elaborate Turkish cover story? One that is still insufficient to justify the crimes against humanity which were committed against the Christian minority populations. Yes, the Russian killed and deported Muslims and Turks from their territories (much before and also during WWI), and Turks were driven from the Balkans in prior years – none of this can be used to justify the brutalities committed against Armenians (& other Christian minorities) during the WWI and after period (in Karrabakir's carrying out of Ataturk's plan to finalize the extermination of the Armenian nation). None of it can begin to justify what was done by the Young Turks and the Turks as a nation against the largely pacified and subserviant Armenian people of Anatolia.

[1.5 million]

Another (past) post that still reflects how I feel concerning this issue

The Turks (propaganda) case against the Armenians is vastly overstated. I and other Armenians have acknowledged that some Armenians did fight against and even massacre Turks - however, again, these instances were not the norm and the alleged Armenian uprising/back stabbing was merely an excuse by the Young Turks to pursue their Pan-Turkick aims and rid themselves of a potential political problem. Their writings support this contention. And the eyewitness evidence (from Germans, Austrians, Americans & Turks etc) clearly support the fact that innocent Armenians were being slaughtered by the thousands and thousands for no apparent (military or otherwise) reason.

I am getting somewhat tired of apologizing for the more minor Armenian misdeeds and seeing next to nothing in the way of sympathy or acknowledgement of (clearly much more prevalent, unjustified, and widely criminal) Turkish misdeeds from the Turkish side. I know that many Turks (of this generation) may never be able to fully bring themselves to believe the things they hear (and the facts that we present) concerning the crimes of their people – but I still feel the obligation to post the truth and work toward justice no matter the intransigency on the other side. I do believe this situation will change, as Akcam too believes, based on education, exposure and increased Democracy in Turkey.

[1.5 million]

Bump. Considering recent questions such as from Kemalist (whoever - all sound the same ultimatly) and others - perhpas this thread could be made into a sticky. I think a lot of Turks could benefit from reading this first before they come asking questions and preaching...

[TurQ]

1.5 Million

According to your knowledge did Armenians(Dashnak Party) requested autonomy in 1912?( Eastern Anatolian cities, Erzurum kars, Va Tranzon etc). That autonomy actually was granted by CUP in 1914 by the force of foreign powers(Same scenraio happaned in Balkans, first autonomy then independence). Later by the end of 1914 CUP stepped back from granting autonomy, before the Russian offensive in winter. Are you familiar with those events?

How would you describe the declaration of independent Armenia in the city of Van on 14th of April 1915? What would be your definition for declaring Van as the eternal capital? Just keep in mind this declaration coincides with Allied offensive to Gallipoli and Dardanelles in spring 1915.

What would have happened if there were no forced deportations by Talat Pasha? Just re-examine the events from 1915 to 1918(until the Russian retreat), if there were no deportations what kind of events would happen?

The Turks (propaganda) case against the Armenians is vastly overstated. I and other Armenians have acknowledged that some Armenians did fight against and even massacre Turks - however, again, these instances were not the norm and the alleged Armenian uprising/back stabbing was merely an excuse by the Young Turks to pursue their Pan-Turkick aims and rid themselves of a potential political problem. Their writings support this contention. And the eyewitness evidence (from Germans, Austrians, Americans & Turks etc) clearly support the fact that innocent Armenians were being slaughtered by the thousands and thousands for no apparent (military or otherwise) reason.

I am getting somewhat tired of apologizing for the more minor Armenian misdeeds and seeing next to nothing in the way of sympathy or acknowledgement of (clearly much more prevalent, unjustified, and widely criminal) Turkish misdeeds from the Turkish side. I know that many Turks (of this generation) may never be able to fully bring themselves to believe the things they hear (and the facts that we present) concerning the crimes of their people – but I still feel the obligation to post the truth and work toward justice no matter the intransigency on the other side. I do believe this situation will change, as Akcam too believes, based on education, exposure and increased Democracy in Turkey.

[1.5 million]

What have you been smoking TurQ? The Dashanks never asked for nor recieved any promiss of autonomy - this is absurd. There were reforms agreed to where 2 European Inspector generals were assinged to oversea but the CUp prevented them from carrying out the dutues earlier agreed to and when the war came the CUP unilarterally backed out of the agreement that they had signed up to (similar to a treaty obligation).

As far as Van goes - this is also a bit of a fanicful claim...but after wht they went through - and the fact that besides perhaps Musa Dagh - these were the only Armenians who managed to resist and defend themselves - so if on arrival of the Russians they happened to declare themselves independent of Turkey - who really could blame them? have you ever actually read what the Armenians of BVan and the surropunding area had to go through? Are you at all aware what a bloodthirsty murderous tyrant they had to deal with - who latter bragged about personally being responsible for the deaths of 300,000 Armenians...

And I find your last question to be somewhat insulting as you are justifying the Genocide of Armenians in Anatolia (that in fact was carried out far beyond any geographic areas connected to the Eastern front as yo are implying...and was done in a manner to not really be a deporation but a deliberate and admitted means of annhilating Armenians then ansd to assure no future Armenians for it wever to be an issue again...). And what you are doing is speculating - and perhaps and I'm sure these Armenians of the East who had been terribly put upon for generations and most recently by Special Organization depravations - begun many months prior to the war (and also responsible for decimation of a great many Turkish villages as well - documented by Turkish sources BTW) - so yeah - again who would blame these people if they might have felt relieved about the Russians moving in (however you are ignoring the expressed Armenian concernins about Russian interests in this region and the fear by Armenians of being under the Russian yolk - not all Armenians - or even most - really wanted this - so you have to understan how extreme their circumstances had grown under the ottomans and even worse under the murderous backstabbing CUP! Speaking of - the plans - at least discussion and consideration of such - to exterminate the Armenians began in 1910! Yes - this is well documented and corraborated. So do not claim that this move was really just for war contingency. There is a very valid argument that the war itself - getting the Ottomans into it - was intentionally done to provide a cover and excuse for taking these extreme actions against the Armenians.

[TurQ]

I dont have much time write

Dont get my last question wrong. I am not justifying anything. Just asking, take deportations out of history,treat it as if it never happened and look at the events starting from winter 1914 to 1918, until the Russian retreat.

Let me ask it precisely, would Turks, Kurds and Armenians, Russians fight for control of eastern provinces? What'll be the relations between TUrks and Armenians in those provinces. Will eastern Anatolian provinces preserve their multi-cultural /multi-ethnic identity?

What have you been smoking TurQ? The Dashanks never asked for nor recieved any promiss of autonomy - this is absurd. There were reforms agreed to where 2 European Inspector generals were assinged to oversea but the CUp prevented them from carrying out the dutues earlier agreed to and when the war came the CUP unilarterally backed out of the agreement that they had signed up to (similar to a treaty obligation).

As far as Van goes - this is also a bit of a fanicful claim...but after wht they went through - and the fact that besides perhaps Musa Dagh - these were the only Armenians who managed to resist and defend themselves - so if on arrival of the Russians they happened to declare themselves independent of Turkey - who really could blame them? have you ever actually read what the Armenians of BVan and the surropunding area had to go through? Are you at all aware what a bloodthirsty murderous tyrant they had to deal with - who latter bragged about personally being responsible for the deaths of 300,000 Armenians...

And I find your last question to be somewhat insulting as you are justifying the Genocide of Armenians in Anatolia (that in fact was carried out far beyond any geographic areas connected to the Eastern front as yo are implying...and was done in a manner to not really be a deporation but a deliberate and admitted means of annhilating Armenians then ansd to assure no future Armenians for it wever to be an issue again...). And what you are doing is speculating - and perhaps and I'm sure these Armenians of the East who had been terribly put upon for generations and most recently by Special Organization depravations - begun many months prior to the war (and also responsible for decimation of a great many Turkish villages as well - documented by Turkish sources BTW) - so yeah - again who would blame these people if they might have felt relieved about the Russians moving in (however you are ignoring the expressed Armenian concernins about Russian interests in this region and the fear by Armenians of being under the Russian yolk - not all Armenians - or even most - really wanted this - so you have to understan how extreme their circumstances had grown under the ottomans and even worse under the murderous backstabbing CUP! Speaking of - the plans - at least discussion and consideration of such - to exterminate the Armenians began in 1910! Yes - this is well documented and corraborated. So do not claim that this move was really just for war contingency. There is a very valid argument that the war itself - getting the Ottomans into it - was intentionally done to provide a cover and excuse for taking these extreme actions against the Armenians.

[1.5 million]

I dont have much time write

Dont get my last question wrong. I am not justifying anything. Just asking, take deportations out of history,treat it as if it never happened and look at the events starting from winter 1914 to 1918, until the Russian retreat.

Let me ask it precisely, would Turks, Kurds and Armenians, Russians fight for control of eastern provinces? What'll be the relations between TUrks and Armenians in those provinces. Will eastern Anatolian provinces preserve their multi-cultural /multi-ethnic identity?

Any answer is pure speculation. I could just as easily ask you if CUP had delivered on its promisses for equality and just treatment for Armenians would Armenians have been interested in the Russians comming in to relieve them of deprivations? What if the CUP had never joined the war - as it was the one who provokes the conflict and for purposes of expanding into the Caucuses and grabbing more territory and for the purposes of Annhilating the Armenains and "solving" the "Armenian Question". etc So don't attempt to say that the CUP had to take these actions becuse if they didn't it would have been ethnic war in the East when in fact the CUP were the ones who established the conditions for such in the first place - and even beging with Abdul Hammid and his Kurding regiments and even before with deliberate settling of various Kurds and Turkics into Armenian areas...remeber Armenians were peaceable and loyal and though a juniour partner - were partners with the Turks - until Turkish/Muslim ethno-centrism kicked in resulting from jealousy over the rising fortunes and status of Armenians in the Empire and fears of ethnic schism from past experience in the Balkans...that in itself was brought about by terrible Turkish misrule and oppresion. So again - you are attempting to blame the Armenians for this tragedy for which for the most part they as a people were innocent victims. All reports show that Armenains by and large were loyal to the Empire - even in the face of some very extreme brutalities. While Armenian revolutionary activity did occur (mainly in the later part of the 19th century) - so to did Turkish based revolutionary activity - a la the CUP and other like groups. While Armenian banditry was on the rise in the East (do to the dire economic and political situation) - it never came close to approaching that of the Kurds or even of various such Turkish groups that roamed the countryside. Was there ethnic friction - yes quite a bit - but who was really pushing who? Can you be unaware of the laws that allowed for nomadic Kurds to shelter with any Armenain family they wished through the winter - animals and all - and Armenians were forced to provide? Can you imagine the depravatiosn that occured - the outrages? Do you think these various policies that made life enbearable for Armenians were not deliberate? etc