Armenian Conference in Istanbul & Turkish Researcher in Yerivan

[pathfinder]

To him the message is clear: Dont come back again if you will not conduct your research in the way we like it to be.

To you the message is: Don't come back again if you will not conduct your research in the way we like it to be.


The REAL message is: smuggling antique books out of our archives to your country was not part of the plan.

To other researchers: You are not welcomed if you would not say the things that we say.

To you the message is: you are not welcomed if you wouldn't say things we want you to say.

The REAL message is: you are welcome to study our archives for as long as you wish, just like Turkyilmaz was given full access to, just don't try to smuggle them out of the country.

Thank you

[imported_Fadix]

Nah, he wouldn't have been arrested for smuggling regular books out of the country. It smells fishy.

They were probably not regular books. But I propose that before we accuse him of having stolen anything we wait and see what really happened. In Armenia, many underground deals are made.

[Hovik]

The message is clear.

he is probably be freed in near future, I am pretty much sure about that.
I do not believe he will be prisoned for 5 years(as it is said by Armenian officials)

To him the message is clear: Dont come back again if you will not conduct your research in the way we like it to be.

To other researchers: You are not welcomed if you would not say the things that we say.

That has to be about the most brainless thing anyone can say. WTF does this have to do with the way he conducts his research??? When did anyone say anything directly or indirectly about anything of the sort? I don't think a single soul disrupted or interfered with his research in Armenia. Can you show us a report that stated that anyone had a problem with his research or trying to influence what he said the entire time he was there??? We're all waiting for it... They stopped him because he was trying to steal books. Some of you Turks have said it was "stupid" of him to do. I applaud this display of objectivity. However, there is NO EXCUSE for anyone to ignore the reason that he was detained - for a crime (he has appeared to have committed). I am all for the Justice system, and I hope he is treated fairly.

About what you said first. I don't believe Armenian Officials said he was to be detained for 5 years. Here is an official news report saying the contrary - He would probably be fined and nothing more. Please post the statement you read in which Armenian officials said he would be detained for 5 years. If you do not have any such statement, please refrain from making comments in this forum that contradict substantial evidence without providing your own substantiation. Thank you.

[Bugra]

The Message

Hovik You know very well what is happening.

I didnt say he was detained for 5 years, I said the Armenian officials told that he is convicted of smuggling books which is punishable to 5 years of prison.

You know what is going on there, he is being punished and being warned for his future studies. If he declines to carry out his research the way he was expected, he will never ever go back and study Armenian archives as he likes.

He was being followed step by step by Diaspora and Armenian state about what he is researching.

I have read 3 or 4 weeks ago from the diaspora web sites about him that he learned Armenian from an Istanbul Armenian and quoting him saying " It is said that Armenian archives are not open, that's lie I am here and researching Armenian archives freely".

I think this probably made Armenian diaspora leaders to think that he is a dissident like Taner Akcam.


Hovik, even though you bad mouthing to me, I will not do the same to you or other Armenians here. We are trying to discuss an issue here.

Do you really think that a researcher like him would do such a stupid thing?
If he is really like that I really like him to be punished crime is crime, and for me for historical books or items this crime should be more severe( personally am support of renovation of Historical buildings in Turkey including Armenian ones). But this is not our point, you and I and other people here very well know and aware that this is a warning to him and to other researchers.

It is most probably that, either he is being set up or falsely accused for the reasons I have written.

If I would like to smuggle something I would give money to mafia to do that why should I danger myself for this? I would contact with mafia in Russia and they would easily access Mafia in Armenia and smuggle those books real easy. All of the ex-Soviet and ex-Communist states are corrupt states now, and you can virtually do any kind of smuggling by giving money to mafia.

We will see he will be freed in near future.

That has to be about the most brainless thing anyone can say. WTF does this have to do with the way he conducts his research??? When did anyone say anything directly or indirectly about anything of the sort? I don't think a single soul disrupted or interfered with his research in Armenia. Can you show us a report that stated that anyone had a problem with his research or trying to influence what he said the entire time he was there??? We're all waiting for it... They stopped him because he was trying to steal books. Some of you Turks have said it was "stupid" of him to do. I applaud this display of objectivity. However, there is NO EXCUSE for anyone to ignore the reason that he was detained - for a crime (he has appeared to have committed). I am all for the Justice system, and I hope he is treated fairly.

About what you said first. I don't believe Armenian Officials said he was to be detained for 5 years. Here is an official news report saying the contrary - He would probably be fined and nothing more. Please post the statement you read in which Armenian officials said he would be detained for 5 years. If you do not have any such statement, please refrain from making comments in this forum that contradict substantial evidence without providing your own substantiation. Thank you.

[Bugra]

Armenia holds scholar from Duke over books

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/2513231p-8917277c.html

Armenia holds scholar from Duke over books

The Associated Press

YEREVAN, ARMENIA -- A Duke University researcher was detained at Yerevan airport Friday on suspicion of smuggling antique books out of Armenia, the National Security Service said.
An official for the security agency, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Turkish citizen Yektan Turkyilmaz had been arrested in possession of books dating from the 17th to 20th centuries and was suspected of seeking to take them secretly on a flight to Turkey.

Turkyilmaz, of Duke University in Durham, is likely to be fined although the offense he is accused of carries a maximum five-year jail term, the official said.

Books older than 50 years cannot be taken out of Armenia without special permission. Turkyilmaz was in Armenia to carry out research in the Armenian national archives, the first Turk to be allowed to do so.

Turkyilmaz is a doctoral student in Duke's cultural anthropology department, according to the department's Web site. His dissertation is on the effects of geography and nationhood on Turkey's society.

Turkyilmaz, a Duke student for five years, is researching the early part of the 20th century in Turkey and Armenia, said Orin Starn, a professor in Duke's cultural anthropology department who is a friend and adviser to Turkyilmaz.

Starn cast doubt on the accusations that Turkyilmaz, a Turkish citizen of Kurdish heritage, tried to smuggle books out of Armenia.

Turkyilmaz's work includes research on the killings of Armenians, a delicate subject in both countries, Starn said. The first Turk to gain access to the Armenian national archives, Turkyilmaz had approached his work on the tense period of history as a scholar.

"He's been a bridge builder," Starn said.

No one at Duke or in Turkyilmaz's family in Turkey has made contact with him, causing concern.

"My fear is that he has been caught in the middle of an explosive, long-running conflict," Starn said.

Armenia and Turkey do not have diplomatic relations because of a dispute over the killings of Armenians during World War I, which Armenians say was genocide.

Armenians say some 1.5 million of their people were killed as the Ottoman Empire forced them from eastern Turkey between 1915 and 1923 in a deliberate campaign of genocide.

Turkey says the death count is inflated and insists that Armenians were killed or displaced in the civil unrest during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be published, broadcast or redistributed in any manner.
Staff writer Sarah Ovaska contributed to this report.

They were probably not regular books. But I propose that before we accuse him of having stolen anything we wait and see what really happened. In Armenia, many underground deals are made.

[Bugra]

The Message

Here is a quote from Armenian official.

We all know what the following means

He will be probably fined for a crime which punishedable upto 5 years ===> Next time you will see what will happen


"An official for the security agency, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Turkish citizen Yektan Turkyilmaz had been arrested in possession of books dating from the 17th to 20th centuries and was suspected of seeking to take them secretly on a flight to Turkey.

Turkyilmaz, of Duke University in Durham, is likely to be fined although the offense he is accused of carries a maximum five-year jail term, the official said."

That has to be about the most brainless thing anyone can say. WTF does this have to do with the way he conducts his research??? When did anyone say anything directly or indirectly about anything of the sort? I don't think a single soul disrupted or interfered with his research in Armenia. Can you show us a report that stated that anyone had a problem with his research or trying to influence what he said the entire time he was there??? We're all waiting for it... They stopped him because he was trying to steal books. Some of you Turks have said it was "stupid" of him to do. I applaud this display of objectivity. However, there is NO EXCUSE for anyone to ignore the reason that he was detained - for a crime (he has appeared to have committed). I am all for the Justice system, and I hope he is treated fairly.

About what you said first. I don't believe Armenian Officials said he was to be detained for 5 years. Here is an official news report saying the contrary - He would probably be fined and nothing more. Please post the statement you read in which Armenian officials said he would be detained for 5 years. If you do not have any such statement, please refrain from making comments in this forum that contradict substantial evidence without providing your own substantiation. Thank you.

[Hovik]

Bugra,
I can see now why you made the mistake you have. I will not hold it against you as it could have happened to many people. Lets be honest, your english isn't so good, (at least your typing alludes to this). I am sure native english speakers in this forum will agree that when you say:

"I do not believe he will be prisoned for 5 years(as it is said by Armenian officials)"

it DOES mean you are implying that:

ARMENIAN OFFICIALS SAID THAT HE WILL BE IMPRISIONED FOR 5 YEARS, AND YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

This is a fact of the english language. I didn't create it, but I do know a thing or two about it. If you or anyone else still thinks that you DIDN'T say that Armenian officials were saying he would be imprisioned for 5 years (which you didn't believe), then please let me know, and perhaps we can get an English teacher in here to demonstrate...

Hovo

P.S. Next time be more sure of your english / typing before pouncing on me in defense.

[Bugra]

SOrry not being more eloborate.

By saying that I wanted to imply that this crime, which is punishable upto 5 years, is like sword of demokles,and a threat against him.
He will likely be freed.

What would a researcher like him, examining a highly politicized topic, expect in future when he goes back to Armenia?
If the Armenian official say to him " You are found guilty but this time your are fined, wont be punished in prison". This is a warning in plain language.

Can this researcher be confortable in his researches in future?

His research topic is a very sensitive one, the early Armenian nationalist movements and political parties.

Anyways we will see what will happen.

Sorry again, if I caused confusion.

Bugra,
I can see now why you made the mistake you have. I will not hold it against you as it could have happened to many people. Lets be honest, your english isn't so good, (at least your typing alludes to this). I am sure native english speakers in this forum will agree that when you say:

"I do not believe he will be prisoned for 5 years(as it is said by Armenian officials)"

it DOES mean you are implying that:

ARMENIAN OFFICIALS SAID THAT HE WILL BE IMPRISIONED FOR 5 YEARS, AND YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

This is a fact of the english language. I didn't create it, but I do know a thing or two about it. If you or anyone else still thinks that you DIDN'T say that Armenian officials were saying he would be imprisioned for 5 years (which you didn't believe), then please let me know, and perhaps we can get an English teacher in here to demonstrate...

Hovo

P.S. Next time be more sure of your english / typing before pouncing on me in defense.

[1.5 million]

Jumping to conclusions aren't we.

I've always stated my belief that one day when Turkey actually does admit all concerning the Genocide that Turks like those here will look pretty stupid.

I'm betting that on this issue the time for us to laugh at them and their exposure will be mush sooner.

I think this whole thing has been a minsunderstanding. I think that the researchers intentions were likley good and that he was ignorant of the law. I also think it is clear that some Armenians sold him the material (then probably turned him in!) - and it is these Armenians who should be castized as they should know better but were motivated by greed.

[Bugra]

Recognition?

I am not sure if you guys intentionally or unintentionally distort what Turks say. We do not deny the sufferings of Armenians, we say they are part of many sufferings that had been experienced during the war including millions of Turks in 7 big fronts.

Armenians claim that Turks do deny Armenians suffered, Turks deny bad things had happened in past. They want this to be recognized.

On the contorary we do not deny, but we differ how and why thing had happened, and we do not name these events as genocide. Rather we see these as aprt of a political compaign after losing the dream of establishing Armenian state on Ottoman soil in 1915. We see genocide claims as to avenge of a lost battle for independence in past, and use the recognition of genocide for further land raparations given to state of Armenia.

As in a recent Tashnak declaration, which reflects long term goals of Armenian strategy, it is said that "Armenian state is not capable of getting land from Turkey now, but it does not mean that it wont ask in future" refering that recognition is not enough, land should be given after recognition. So for the official Armenian stand point, recognition of so called genocide is just the begining of the revenge that has been sought for long.

So it should be clear what we are opposing, and what Armenians are trying to achieve.

By saying this the real denial comes from Armenian side, by denying their involvement in the chaos of world war one, their denial of Muslim sufferings in Caucusia and Eastern Anatolia. Genocide recognition also aims to cover up Muslim sufferings in past and put an end to even claim that Muslims were victims under French, Russian and Armenian hands.


Let me briefly state what(and I assume most of Turks) think for the 1915 events



1) After 1878 Berlin Treaty Armenian nationalists saw the opportunity to break up from Ottoman state.
2) They seek aliances with European forces and Russian forces to liberate Eastern Anatolia from Ottoman state.
3) They helped Russians to ethnically cleanse muslims from Caucusia and ensured them to do the same in Eastern Anatolia.
4) In 1914 and spring of 1915 they saw that world war one gave them(THe nationalist and political Armenian groups)opportunity to achieve their independence goal.
5) On the 14th of APril 1915 they occupied the Ottoman city of Van along with Russian armies and declared City of Van as their eternal Capital city of state of Armenia which showed the result of pre-1915 indepence efforts. This triggered 24th of April arrests of the suspected seperatists.
6) In 1914 Enver Pasha have sent a telegraph to Istanbul from eastern fronts stating "Russians (with consisting of Armenian volunteers and armies) are uprooting muslim populations from Caucusia , forcing them to immigrate to Anatolia, and Ottomans should do the same to Armenian population of Anatolia, and sent the Eastern Anatolian Armenian population towards approaching Russian Armies to stop them". Talat Pasha rejects this solution which would annihilate all of the Armenian population which would be under fire of two big armies, he then accepted the forceful immigrations to Syria.
7) After 1918 immigrated Armenian populations returned back and then they sided with French and British armies in 1918-1922.
8) 500,000 Armenian have been sent to Syria, and additional 300,000 were sent by Russians to Tbilisi in 1915. Talat Pasha says in his memoirs that aproximately 970,000 of Armenians have been forced to relocate(including 300,000 in Tbilisi).

9) 1.5 million deaths are impossible because of the demographic facts in those years, so the numbers are greatly inflated and used and still being used as a political tool to seek revange or a historical failure of establishing Armenian state in Eastern Anatolia.

10) Given the CUP record for handling things, mistreatment or massacre of Armenians did happen, but can not be accepted as genocide. This Armenain stand also denies the suffering and massacres by Russians along with Armenian rebels and volunteer fedayins.

11) THose who involved in killings of Armenians were punished, some hanged after the indictment by Ottoman courts.

12) The denialist side is the Armenian side because they deny the sufferings of Caucusian Muslims(before 1915) and Eastern Anatolian Muslims(After 1914)

13) Eventhough most of the Istanbul Armenians think that the events are genocide they do not share most of views of Armenian diaspora, they oppose using genocide for political tools and gain, which they call "another genocide is taking advantage of it".
Turkish Armenians always in dispute with American Armenians because of their political differences and property disputes. American Armenian diaspora try to claim some properties Armenian church in Turkey and hate MUtafyan, head of Armenian Church because of his opposition.

I will not dispute this 13 items above with you, because we all know where you stand at those points.
The point is that we do not deny sufferings of Armenians, but these events can not and should not be classified as Genocide, given the definition.

We recognize that the Armenian diaspora and Armenian state seeking for a political revenge by using genocide claims(most of them seek land raparations).
Therefore it is impossible for Turkey and Turks to accept these claims as genocide which is a political defeat.

Turkey can only accept genocide claims if it becomes so weak and have to bend to pressure for a recognition.

In that case I would feel defeated instead feel stupid. BEcause this is a political war, and losing it makes you defeated instead of ridiculed.

And given the facts and developing events in the world Turkey does not seem to get weaker, instead it is getting stronger, for this reason I can see no reason for accepting a political will pressured by Armenia and Armenian lobbyists.

So 1.5 million, I do not think you will be laughing near soon, only God knows the future but if we get weaker as we did in 1915 and you try to utilize it again and eventually be successful, then you can laugh, but for now it does not seem reasonable for you to expect any good results any time soon.


PS: When this issue is handled in a political climate you see how things get nasty, and solution becomes almost impossible. If we handle the humanitarian, historical and cultural aspects of this issue we can find more room to improve relations. At this moment, it is " you did this, you did that, nothing happened to you, we were peaceful and did nothing " and seeking revange to comfort your feelings. This can not improve relations instead this will make Turkey harsher towards Armenia and impose a stricter embargo instead of a loose one. Is this a solution? definetly no. But if you are not for improved relations, I don not hav anything more to say.

Jumping to conclusions aren't we.

I've always stated my belief that one day when Turkey actually does admit all concerning the Genocide that Turks like those here will look pretty stupid.

I'm betting that on this issue the time for us to laugh at them and their exposure will be mush sooner.

I think this whole thing has been a minsunderstanding. I think that the researchers intentions were likley good and that he was ignorant of the law. I also think it is clear that some Armenians sold him the material (then probably turned him in!) - and it is these Armenians who should be castized as they should know better but were motivated by greed.