Kurdistan or Armenia???

[Reincarnated Am]

According to their map, even Ararat is in kurdistan.

Not just Ararat, also Ani, Akhtamar, Gars, I guess we (The Armenians) were never there, all these churches, khachkars and the monuments were Kurdish and Turkish, maybe these people were Christians once and even they used the Armenian Alphabet

[neutral]

The problem with any land settlement Armenia may demand from Turkey is that in these land they want, there are no Armenian and now there are not only ethnic Turks but alot of Kurds. Which is why any question of land reclaimation from Turkey will be unacceptable to Turkey. I think Turkey just to spite Armenia would give the lands Armenia want to a new independant Kurdistan. (I am aware Turkey does not want to give up 1 inch of land)

[Hovik]

Neutral, given Turkeys stance on giving up land, how does it justify it's demand that Armenia give up so much as an inch of Arsakh to "Azerbaijan"?

[Tongue]

Neutral, given Turkeys stance on giving up land, how does it justify it's demand that Armenia give up so much as an inch of Arsakh to "Azerbaijan"?

Hov, he's neutral.. he can't answer that! uhumm

[kemal]

Neutral, given Turkeys stance on giving up land, how does it justify it's demand that Armenia give up so much as an inch of Arsakh to "Azerbaijan"?

Hi Hovik,

The answer is simple. United Nations acknowledges the borders of the countries. There are internaional laws. According to laws Turkey has those lands as part of their country. On the other hand Karabagh is in Azerbaijan. What is wrong with this?

I wonder how come the Armenians complain about the security problem, yet it is them who demand land from their neighbors. As far as I know only with Iran Armenia has no problems, YET!.

You know what, as reasonable and responsible nationals of a country, you have a duty. What made Ataturk teh leader was his sense of what he could do and what he couldn't do. It was easy for him to provocate the Turkish people for marching to the end of the world particularly after he was victorous. But he knew that Turkey was not strong enough to pursue such ideals.

Armenia is not strong enough to pursue the ideals of some members of the Diaspora. This is not fair. Armenians with some logic, should start to stop such demands. It doesn't do any good. It won't do any good either. 20 years from now nothing will be different. Armenians will loose that 20 years. Which matters a lot. For diaspora members Armenia is part of their social life. For Armenians it is their life. How come people has no sight of future. How come people are so selfish. I feel that I am more Nationalist Armenian than you guys/girls. I feel it's me who propose good things for the Armenians. It is your "proud" that is why Armenia is in its current conditions.

Have you ever met the children of the parents who demands them to play piano - ballet - be the best in mathematics - run faster than their peers yet enjoy life. Diaspora seems like that. They demand Armenia to succeed, those things which they couldn't succeed. But Armenia has limited potentials. Don't you see that?

How a country with such a small land and population would survive with land problems with their neighbours? Is there a single example for that other than Israel? You are not Israel. Yes diaspora supports AR and Russia is around more or less like USA for Israel.

But Israelis have a huge influence on USA politics. In your case it is the other way around. It is Russia which decides the next step.

We have a saying those who fell to sea, seeks the help of a snake. Armenia is pushed to the sea by the snakes.

[Tongue]

Hi Hovik,

The answer is simple. United Nations acknowledges the borders of the countries. There are internaional laws. According to laws Turkey has those lands as part of their country. On the other hand Karabagh is in Azerbaijan. What is wrong with this?

Don't forget, according to the United Nations, If the majority of the population of a State wants independence, they are entitled to it. Karabagh with its predominantly Armenian population has voted for independency. What is wrong with this?

Oh and when did Karabagh officially become part of Azerbaijan?

And as far as us not recognizing Turkey's borders go, we never signed the treaty that gave Turkey the lands given to us in another treaty that we did sign! Thus its borders are not valid from our point of view. What part of this do you not understand?

And pray tell, what are Turkish troops doing in Cyprus? If you care about the United Nations, it never approved it!

[kemal]

Hi Tongue,

Three issues let me start from the most apparent mistake;

Armenian Republic's Foreign Affairs Ministry does recognise the Kars Treaty therefore the Turkey's borders. For more detail check my post in http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...p?t=823&page=3.

Second issue is the Cyprus. You don't know much about the history of Cyprus so I don't want to take your time a lot. But I know a bit. Any way, Turkish Cypriots and Turkey accepted the conditions proposed by the United Nations in a referandum last year. It was the Greek Cypriots and that stubborn President was the ones who rejected it. Heard of Annan plan and the referandum?

Third issue is more delicate. You are right there is such a right of self determination. But it is not the right of any minority. Say the Yezidis in Armenia decides to have an independent state would it be possible? Or say teh Iranians in USA comes up with a referandum? Obviously no. I am not an expert on the right of self determination but as far as I know a minority has the right under suppresion and if their basic needs are not answered. United Nation nor the European Parliament I mean none of the international organs recognized the referandum.

I wonder if Russia or even Armenia recognizes Karabagh as a sovereign state? Do they? Your response will also answer your question about teh date since when Karabagh is part of Azerbaijan. I don't know the exact date but currently it is. Right?

There are some similarities with Karabagh and TRNC. But the differences are what separates them. First of all Turkey was a guaranteing state of Cyprus. In 1974 there was a military coup in Cyprus supported by the Fascist Junta of Greece. The coup abolished the state and main law and start executing the opposing people, supporters of Makarios -the president of the time. Even Greek Comunists were asking Turkey to came, if not when they were asking? Any way Turkey had the right to interfere. Nobody at the time blamed Turkey for the move. As I said it was her right and she was responsible to save teh Cyprus Republic according to the Treaties. International Community blamed Turkey when it became clear that she won't leave the island even though the coup was removed, Makarios was back and the Military Junta in Greece was collapsed (so the Greece's Democracy owes to Turkey! ) Any way for the last 30 years Turkey is discussing the conditions of leaving the island. Finally a proposal came from UN last year. Turkey and TRNC supported. Greek Cypriots rejected in the referandum. End of story.

In the case of Karabagh, Armenian Republic is interefering the internal politics of the neighbour with out a basis. For the case of Turkey not the Turks living in Cyprus but the founding constitution of Cyprus was providing a basis...

[Tongue]

Armenia recognizes Kars, but Kars was signed in 1921. Armenia doesn’t recognize Lausanne, which was signed two year later, in 1923, and that’s what determines the boundaries of modern Turkey not Kars. Now, Kars didn't forecast the future treaties did it? Thus Armenia by recognizing Kars isn't recognizing Lousanne.


About Cyprus, I don’t care about what was proposed last year. The problem is 30 years old.Turkish troops entered Cyprus despite United Nations disapproval. You have no right to question Karabagh, when your troops have illegally occupied Cyprus for 30 years! And it’s funny how you distinguish between Karabagh and Cyprus by calling one “interefering the internal politics of the neighbour without a basis” and the other “Turkey had the right to interfere. Nobody at the time blamed Turkey for the move.” With that mentality, I don’t wish to argue with you.

[kemal]

Armenia recognizes Kars, but Kars was signed in 1921. Armenia doesn’t recognize Lausanne, which was signed two year later, in 1923, and that’s what determines the boundaries of modern Turkey not Kars. Now, Kars didn't forecast the future treaties did it? Thus Armenia by recognizing Kars isn't recognizing Lousanne.

Hi Tongue,

Why don't you do a little bit of homework before posting a response!

First let's start with the Kars Treaty. Unlike what you claim Kars Treaty is what determines the boundaries of modern Turkey with Armenia and Georgea and Azerbaijan, Lausanne just acknowledges it. Furthermore the Kars Treaty is where Armenia accepts that Turkey has the land determned by the Turkish National Pact (Misak-ı Milli - the borders of modern Turkey). Those borders are approved in Lausanne with the other parties. That is to say Armenia don't need to sign Lausanne since they already approved the borders and dropped the claims on 6 provinces of Turkey with the Kars Treaty.

http://groong.usc.edu/treaties/kars.html

Article II

The Contracting Parties agree not to recognize any treaty of peace or other international act imposed upon one any of them against its will. In virtue of this agreement, the Governments of the Socialist Soviet Republics of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia agree not to recognize any international act concerning Turkey which has not been recognized by the National Government of Turkey, actually represented by its Grand National Assembly. (By the term Turkey is meant, in the present Treaty, the territories included in the Turkish National Pact of January 28, 1920 (1336), developed and proclaimed by the Ottoman Chamber of Deputies in Constantinople and communicated to the press and to all States).

By the way the way Turkish National Pact of January 28, 1920 (Misak-ı Milli) is the basis of the current borders of Turkey. You are asking in your post "Kars didn't forecast the future treaties did it?". And you say Mustafa Kemal was not a great man. Actually he did forecast the future.

Any way the border is as follows. It took a while already better get used to it soon.

Article IV
The northeast border of Turkey (according to the map of the Russian General Staff, on a scale of 1:210000.5 verstes to the inch) is determined by the line which, beginnin at the village of Sarp on the Black Sea, passes by the Mt. Khedis Mga, the watershed line of at Mt. Shavshet- Mount Kana Dagh; from there, it always follows the former northern administrative borders of the sanjaks of Ardahan and Kars, the thalweg of the Arpachai River and that of the Arax as far as the mouth of the Nijni Kara Su river. (For details of the border and questions pertaining to it, see Annexes I and II and the map inclosed, signed by the two Contracting Parties. In the event of discrepancies between the text of the Treaty and the Map, the text of the treaty shall prevail over the map).

A mixed commission of delimitation, comprised of equal number of members, with the participation of a representative of the RSFSR, is directed to determine in detail and to establish the actual border of the state, and to erecte boundary markers. (Annex IV: the map). [not reproduced]

ANNEX I
Northeast Frontier (follows verbatim Annex 1(a) of the Turkish-Russian Treaty of March 16, 1921)
The northeast border of Turkey is fixed as follows (according to the map of the Russian General Staff, on a scale of 1:210,000.5 verstes to the inch):

The village of Sari on the Black Sea, Mt. Kara-Shalvar (5014), crosses Chorokh to the north from the village of Maradidi, passes to the north of Sabur, Mt. Khedis Mga (7052), Mt. Kva-Kibe, village of Kavtareli, line of watershed Medzibna Mountain and Mt. Great-Kessun (6468), follows the line of the watershed Mt. Korda (7910), goes along the western part of the ridge Shavshet to the administrative border of the former Artvin district, goes to the Mt. Sari Chai (Kara-Issal) (8478), summit of the mountain Kviral, then follows the administrative border of the former Ardahan district by Mt. Kana-Dagh, thence, turning to the north, goes to Mt. Tlil (Grmani) (8357), and following the former border of Ardahan, goes to the northeast of the village of Badela, to the river Poskov-Chai, and follows to the south aling this river to a point to the north of the village of Chap Chakh, then it leaves the river, follows the watershed to Mt. Airlian-Bashi, goes over the Mts. Kella-Tana (9709), reaches Mt. Kasris-Seri (9681), and follows along the river Karzamet Chai until it reaches the river Kura, thence it goes along the line of the watershed of Mt. Kara-Ogli (7259), whence, dividing in two parts Lake Khazapin, it goes to the elevation 7580, then to Mt. Geg-Dagh (9152), goes over Mt. Uch-Tapoylar (9783), and Mt. Taila-Kala (9716), ridge 9065, where it leaves the border of the former Ardahan district and passes over the Mts. B. Akh Barba (9963), 8828 (8827), 7602, goes to the east of the village of Ibish, reaches elevation 7518, and then Mt. Kizil Dash (7439) (7440), village of New Kizil-Dash (Kizel-Dash), passes to the west from the Karamemeda, goes to the river Jambushu Chai (which is to the east of the village of Delaver, B. Kikli, and Tikhnis), and through the village of Vartanli and Bashi-Shuragel; following the above-named river, it goes to the river Arpa Chai to the north of Kayalala, from there follows all the time the thalweg of the river Arpa Chai and arrives at the river Araxes, following its thalweg to the mouth of the river Lower Kara Su.

ANNEX II
Withdrawal of Troops in Arpa-Chai and Araxes Regions (follows verbatim Annex 1(b) of the Turkish-Russian Treaty of March 16, 1921)

Taking into consideration that the border line, as it is shown in Annex I, is the thalwegs of the rivers Arpa Chai and Araxes, the Government of the Grand National Assembly undertakes to remove the line of block-houses to the distance of 8 versts from the Alexandropol-Yerevan railway line in the district of the Arpa Chai river, and to the distance of 4 versts from the above-named railway in the district of the river Araxes. The lines which enclose the above-named districts are shown below: the district of the river Arpa Chai at sections (a) and (b) of Paragraph 1, and the district of the river Araxes in Paragraph 2.


Paragraph 1: District of the river Arpa Chai

(a) To the southeast from Vartanli, to the east from Uzun-Kilisa over Mt. xxxyar (5096), 5082-5047, to the east from Karmir-Vaik-Uch-Tapa (5578), to the east from Arzaz Oghlu, to the east from Ani, reaches Arpa Chai to the west from Yeni-Ki.

(b) Leaves Arpa Chai to the east from elevation 5019, goes straight to elevation 5481, at the distance of 4.5 versts, to the east from Kizil Kula at 2 versts, to the east from Bojali, and then the river Digor Chai, follows along this river to the village of Duz-Kechut, and goes straight to the north from the ruins of Karabat and to Arpa Chai.


Paragraph 2: District of the river Araxes

A straight line between Kharaba Alijan and the village of Suleiman (Diza).

In the districts bordered on one side by the line of the Alexandropol-Yerevan railway and on the other by the lines which are 8 and 4 versts from the above-named railway, the Government of the Grand National Assembly undertakes not to build any fortification and not to keep the regular army except the number which is essentially necessary for the maintenance of order and security. Those lines are not in the above-named districts.

ANNEX III
Territory of Nakhichevan

Village of Ourmia, from there by a straight line to the Azerdaian station (leaving it to SSRA), then by a straight line to Ms. Dash-Burun west (3142), watershed of Mt. Dash-Burun east (4108), crosses the river Kyahaanam-Darassi to the south of the inscription "Rodne" (Boulakh) (South), following the watershed of Mt. Bgarsik (6607) or (6587), and from there follows the administrative border of the former districts of Erivan and of Sharur, Daralagyaz, by the elevation 6629 to the mountain Kemurlu Dagh (6839) or (6930), and from there to the elevation 3080, Sayat Dagh (7868), village Kurt Kulag (Kyurt Kulak), Mt. Gamessur Dagh (8160), elevation 8022, Kuri Dagh (10,181), and the eastern administrative border of the former district of Nakhichevan.

Article X
The Contracting Parties agree not to admit upon their territories the formation or sojourn of organizations or groups pretending to assume the role of government of the other country or a part of its territory, nor the sojourn of groups having for their purpose war against the other country. It is clearly understood that the Turkish territory mentioned above in the present Article is the territory under the direct civil and military administration of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey.

About Cyprus, I don’t care about what was proposed last year. The problem is 30 years old.Turkish troops entered Cyprus despite United Nations disapproval. You have no right to question Karabagh, when your troops have illegally occupied Cyprus for 30 years! And it’s funny how you distinguish between Karabagh and Cyprus by calling one “interefering the internal politics of the neighbour without a basis” and the other “Turkey had the right to interfere. Nobody at the time blamed Turkey for the move.” With that mentality, I don’t wish to argue with you.

What do you mean I don't care? You are the one (validly) pointing the UN's role in Cyprus and asking Turkey to abide it.

First of all Turkish troops didn't "illegally occupied" Cyprus. According to the constitution of Cyprus Turkish troops (only 600 or so) were allready in Cyprus. Again according to the treaty Turkey "should maintain" the stability of the constitution in Cyprus. What Turkey had to do was after obtaining the stability, should leave some troops and withdraw the rest. This is what Turkey didn't do. But in order to do this both parties should agree that the stability is maintained. Turkey didn't accept this up to this point. With UN's Annan Plan Turkey agreed that the stability would be achieved and was getting ready to leave. Greeks rejected it!

Check the treaty first:

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/MFA/ForeignPolicy/MainIssues/Cyprus/Treaty+Concerning+The+Establishment+of+The+Republic+of+Cyprus.htm

ARTICLE IV

In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measure necessary to ensure observance of those provisions.

In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty.


This is exactly what happened. Greek Nationalist made a coup Deta't. Turkey used its right to take action. This was not "illegal".

To sum up, Turkish "temporary occupation" that is to say "interference" was not illegal it was based on a treaty. Not many objected the move at the time. The illegal thing is its permanent stay there. Turkey believes that 30 years is not permanent enough!

Any way we allready have a problem which we can't settle. Let's leave Cyprus and Karabagh out of the table. All I know is neither Turkish Cypriots nor Karabagh Armenians have the right to self determination right away. Actually Karabagh Armenians have more rights since Azerbaijan can not currently provide the democratical conditions as much as the Cyprus Republic. Turkey should leave Cyprus. But how can you blame them? They agreed on the conditions but the other party rejected. It seems the Greek Cypriots loves the Turkish people a lot.

[Tongue]

Hi Tongue,

Why don't you do a little bit of homework before posting a response!

First let's start with the Kars Treaty. Unlike what you claim Kars Treaty is what determines the boundaries of modern Turkey with Armenia and Georgea and Azerbaijan, Lausanne just acknowledges it.

Taken from encyclopedia.com:


Shortly afterward, a conference opened at Lausanne (see Lausanne, Treaty of ) to revise the Treaty of Sèvres. The Treaty of Lausanne (1923) established the present boundaries of Turkey, except for the disputed region of Alexandretta (Iskenderun; see Hatay ).


BTW, I'm not an expert in treaties, main reason why I started the Treaty of Sevres thread.