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open minded turks questions

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  • open minded turks questions

    Hi everyone,

    Im an Australian of Turkish background and am fairly simple minded you may say. I don't feel very patriotic for any country other than Australia but do carry a curiosity for this alleged genocide issue. I call it 'alleged' not due to any bias or disrespect but purely from a lack of knowledge.
    I must say that Ive read hundreds of documents from all walks of life and have drawn on the following conclusions. These conclusions are merely starting points for those whom wish to add to a healthy discussion on the topic somewhat. They are:

    - So what if some countries accept the term genocide and others do not? All this in reality shows is the power of respective lobbies of either Armenians or Turks in foreign countries! To think that countries whom accept the genocide are unbiased and all righteous and those who side with the Turkish version are all corrupt and influenced by financial or political powers is childish and naive. Everyone is simply playing politics and serving the desires of their constituents....and vice versa for that matter. Is this not the real real reality?

    - Are Armenians just having a good old sook? They did uprise, they did go on the attack, they did kick the sick puppy (Ottomans) while they were down and almost out...did they not? They got caught doing it and got spanked hard for it? Isn't that like doing the crime but sooking cos U dont wanna do the time?

    - Is there a possibility that the official ottoman gvt didnt actually order anything? Could it have been an unofficial or rebel group carrying out such atrocities on the armenians? Or is there reasons or facts to believe that this was indeed an official 'but off the books' order for the ottoman gvt to look clean?

    - Is it true that armenian schools and official publications/maps still have parts of Turkey shown as Armenia? Lets be honest here...is this the same kind of denial of truth, gvt lies and fabrications etc that is being accused of the Turks? The irony is alarming. A nation who cannot even tell and teach the truth about its own borders to its people? If they can have them believe the borders, how easy would it be to lie about their history and more complex issues dating back to 90 years and get away with it?

    - Is Turkey denying the events because it doesnt want to pay massive amounts of compensation to the Armenian descendants like how the Germans had to pay for the Jews? Are Armenians after a symbolic recognition and apology so they can put it to rest forever knowing theyve done what they could for the recognition of their ancestors plight? Or do Armenians want financial compensation at the end if this, is this the rainbow at the end of the horizon theyve been striving for? Would Armenians accept the acknowledgement of a genocide from the Turks and forfeit financial compensation as a show of honour and principle?

    Im sorry if Ive offended anyone in the process of posing some questions. This really wasn't my intention. All i want is for people to talk about their opinions on such topics and questions that remain unanswered or foggy to me.

    Cheers everyone

  • #2
    Thanks for welcoming me to the forum,

    Firstly I don't have a claim of any nature that nothing ever happened or is a misunderstanding. Secondly, if you were to do a head count of all the nations whom do and don't recognise it you may find that the countries who do are outnumbered. The reason I make mention of the respective lobbies is simple and not as illogocal as you happen to believe. The events occured 90 years ago, why has it taken so long for other countries to acknowledge until the last few decades? Did they just happen to bump into the facts OR was it the aggressive armenian lobby of recent decades that forced the issue? Once again, if you think the countries whom recognise it purely because they are wholesome and genuine AND the countries who don't 'just dont want to get involved' is extremely naive. I think you are totally closing your eyes to the games and point scoring systems of politics and world affairs that exist. You ask 'what they have to gain in recognising'? Politcs and world affairs is a very sneaky and deceptive game, i dont think anyone can dispute this. Direct conflict is not very diplomatic or politically correct, but indirect conflict is extremely prevalent. examples....Russia supporting Armenia against the Turks. america supporting afghans against Russia. I think these examples are plentiful throughout history. The best way countries can attack another without direct conflict is through the use of 3rd parties. Are you too closed minded to fathem that many countries who do support armenia on this topic is a result of not only your lobby but also it's an indirect attack/protest on Turkey? Are you really thinking that politicians would NOT make decisions to satisfy their constituents if they recognised a clear electoral advantage? Are you for real?

    As an Australian Turk i can openely say that if turkey has something to face from its past, so let it be. This is in the interest of turkey and its people for it to prospour further in the future. In the same breath, this I must say to you TONGUE. The Armenian cause will suffer if you do not be careful about something you do plenty of on this forum. Sometimes I feel that you are soo in deep within this forum and likeminded people that you are somewhat insulated from other trains of thoughts that exist. Certain opinions you carry are merely that, just opinions and your sense and understanding of logical & illogical may not always be correct and the righteous one.

    I also look forward to your comments and contributions towards the many other discussion points I raised. I know you are 'answering' my questions by asking me more questions but this was not what I was seeking in being involved in this forum. I am the first to admit Im no professor on this topic hence if you rather take the option of helping me answer my questions as opposed to burdening me with more of your own, I too can be enlightened by your knowledge that Im assuming is far superior to mine considering the time and effort you have invested .

    Cheers

    Comment


    • #3
      For the third point you made about the genocide just being pulled off by a large number of rebelious racists from turkey i must disagree. Right from the beggining of the genocide the turkish Gov't called a summit for the armanian leaders to talk about seperation ( thats how it all started i belive, armenian people wanted to seperate and turkish didnt want them to because of the land they will lose) but instead once the armanian leaders got there they were murdered. and if that was just some trick by the rebels to pull the armenian leaders there ,
      then there would be the issue about the amount of turkish there were. to create a genocide there had to be a large number of men in order to do it, an also if the turkish Gov't didnt order it they would at least see the large amount of thier people killing the armenian. so lets just say that it was a large rebellion majority from Turkey (and also occording to some things ive read, that i sadly cant put a quote on because i dont know what site it was from)and a small amount of other people from other nations that had there reasons for killing armenians, how were thet not seen? obviously the goverment must have made a blind eye because it should be pretty obvious when a genocide is taking place

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by neddy
        Hi everyone,

        Im an australian of turkish background and am fairly simple minded you may say. I don't feel very patriotic for any country other than australia but do carry a curiosity for this alleged genocide issue. I call it 'alleged' not due to any bias or disrespect but purely from a lack of knowledge.
        I must say that Ive read hundreds of documents from all walks of life and have drawn on the following conclusions
        You say that your statements stem from "lack of knowledge" but then you imply that you have read "hundreds of documents".Anyway, I will try to respond to some of those questions which have been put in a clever way, that not only seek answers but taken alone, state some opinions (against the "alleged" Genocide);


        These conclusions are merely starting points for those whom wish to add to a healthy discussion on the topic somewhat. They are:

        - So what if some countries accept the term genocide and others do not?
        It's not a matter of "who accepts and who not" or a political issue, it is enough if the perpetrators of the act recognize it. Moreover, the members of the UNO have accepted the term Genocide which was endorsed in the aftermath of WWII.

        All this in reality shows is the power of respective lobbies of either armenians or turks in foreign countries!
        If only Turkey had recognized the Genocide and made apologies to its victims then the armenian lobbies wouldn't have gone to foreign countries ...it was the stubborn attitude of turkish state and its denial that drove the diaspora armenians to seek international recognition as part of the pressure on Turkey.
        Second, countries like Slovakia, Poland, Germany do not have armenian lobbies to affect their decision.
        It is not right to look at the Genocide issue from that perspective only (lobbying).Even so called "lobbying" should be based on a certain fact, a happened event, a case or a cause...


        To think that countries whom accept the genocide are unbiased and all righteous and those who side with the turkish version are all corrupt and influenced by financial or political powers is childish and naive. Everyone is simply playing politics and serving the desires of their constituents....and vice versa for that matter. Is this not the real real reality?
        Nobody is saying what you have stated....ofcourse politics has a role in the recognition or acceptance process..countries who reject or accept may do that based on their policies towards Turkey but this is only an intersection of interests between what those countries want and what armenians want..and in no way undermines the importance and vailidity of the genocidal act or event.



        - Are armenians just having a good old sook? They did uprise, they did go on the attack, they did kick the sick puppy (ottomans) while they were down and almost out...did they not? They got caught doing it and got spanked hard for it? Isn't that like doing the crime but sooking cos U dont wanna do the time?
        Here, already you are becoming sentimental history "cooker" and adopting history version of turkish government...I don';t have time to post again long history to a turk who deliberately twists the facts...I will just tell you to go and read a good book on the Ottoman Empire and see who did what...and killing 1.5 million people can in no way be justified by telling us stories about few hundred freedom fighters who wanted to get rid of the oppressive ottoman rule (which was their right)...the same kind of lies continue regarding kurds..."they killed, they attacked and we killed them"...


        - Is there a possibility that the official ottoman gvt didnt actually order anything? Could it have been an unofficial or rebel group carrying out such atrocities on the armenians? Or is there reasons or facts to believe that this was indeed an official 'but off the books' order for the ottoman gvt to look clean?
        No there is no such possibility...any unoffiicial or rebel group can act on its own in a limited geographic area within a limited time frame, but that was not the case with the Armenian Genocide, where killings and deportations started from early 1915 and continued until 1916....by gendarmas (official police), army troops, local mobs, cherkez militias, and kurd tribesmen....this was not possible without the support of the state,

        - Is it true that armenian schools and official publications/maps still have parts of turkey shown as armenia? Lets be honest here...is this the same kind of denial of truth, gvt lies and fabrications etc that is being accused of the turks? The irony is alarming. A nation who cannot even tell and teach the truth about its own borders to its people? If they can have them believe the borders, how easy would it be to lie about their history and more complex issues dating back to 90 years and get away with it?

        Your information is distorted. You should differentiate between official Armenia and diaspora armenians (who are the survivors of the AG). In soviet armenia and up until now, maps show the current borders. In Diaspora, textbooks show historic Armenia (with eastern parts of turkey ofcourse) and present day Armenia with current borders. Where is the wrong in this, and where is the denial? Armenians were expelled from their homeland and refuse to accept the current borders as official borders between the two nations...they refer to eastern parts of Turkey as their historic homeland, the place where they came from, and as part of historic Armenia. This has nothing to do with lies and fabrications, coz if you READ more about the armenians and look up some historic maps, you will see where the armenians used to live for centuries, when the turks were not even formed as a race in their asian steppes.
        Second, diaspora armenians do not represent official Armenia. Legally, there is no issue here, no sovereign country is making a territorial claim against another sovereign country.Diaspora armenians represent themselves only, or the western portion of the armenian nation and they have a collective memory that shows the last time they were in Armenia, where were the historic borders.You should also read about the Treaty of Sevres (1920), that drew the borders of Armenians right into eastern Turkey, and Ataturk revolted against the turkish government and created a situation whereby it was not possible to implement the Treaty.


        - Is turkey denying the events because it doesnt want to pay massive amounts of compensation to the armenian descendants like how the germans had to pay for the jews? Are armenians after a symbolic recognition and apology so they can put it to rest forever knowing theyve done what they could for the recognition of their ancestors plight? Or do armenians want financial compensation at the end if this, is this the rainbow at the end of the horizon theyve been striving for? Would armenians accept the acknowledgement of a genocide from the turks and forfeit financial compensation as a show of honour and principle?

        Turkey is denying the events for number of reasons.
        It has an image or attitude issue, a national pride issue which it cannot overcome, second, if accepted the events, others will press forward their demands like greeks and kurds, and third if they accept the events they fear that they will have to pay compensation for the lives and properties lost including territorial compromise.That's why Turkey doesnot accept the fact and not because it did not happen.


        Im sorry if Ive offended anyone in the process of posing some questions. This really wasn't my intention. All i want is for people to talk about their opinions on such topics and questions that remain unanswered or foggy to me.

        Cheers everyone
        Not at all....you should know that armenians are honest in their pursuing of the AG issue, and do not try to see behind those claims a political issue or a western scheme the way the turkish governmentsn try to promote.

        Comment


        • #5
          Great response hahkp!

          One thing neddy said that I wanted to single out is this:

          Originally posted by neddy
          - Are armenians just having a good old sook? They did uprise, they did go on the attack, they did kick the sick puppy (ottomans) while they were down and almost out...did they not? They got caught doing it and got spanked hard for it? Isn't that like doing the crime but sooking cos U dont wanna do the time?
          Did neddy and so many other Turkish members of this forum forget the Bugarian, Greek, Serbian uprisings that won those countries independence? Why is it that when you mention Ottoman minority nations "kicking the sick puppy" (more accurately put: "defending themselves against the pack of pitbulls with rabies") you never discuss the number of other national minorities who weren't so deserving of the Genocide you gave Armenians? You didn't eliminate 50% of THEIR world population did you? And yet by your definition the instigation on their parts could be similar if not worse than that of the Armenians. How does this add up? Please explain why you didn't "spank hard" these other nations that emerged with their rightful territory?

          P.S. Neddy I will ask you to start spelling names of countries such as "Armenia" with a uppercase 'A' in your posts, this is simple respect. I will also ask you to correct all of your posts with this error within the next three days (by Friday this week).
          [url]http://www.ArmenianAncestry.com[/url] - [COLOR="Red"]Armenian[/COLOR] [COLOR="Blue"]Genealogy[/COLOR] [COLOR="Orange"]Forum[/COLOR]

          Comment


          • #6
            Hovik, I don't think Neddy means anything sinister by not capitalizing the word Armenia or Armenians. He doesn't capitalize Turk, Australian, Turkey, Ottoman either, I think it's just his style of writing. No big deal in my opinion.

            Comment

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