Epitome of Denial

[Gavur]

British Police Seize CD, DVDs for Armenian Symposium in Edinburgh
By AA
Published: Saturday, October 22, 2005
zaman.com


The CD's and DVD's sent by the Federation to Fight Against the Unfounded Armenian Allegations (ASEF) to the Britain Turkish Associations Confederation and to the Edinburgh Symposium Committee to be shown at a symposium in Edinburgh, Scotland on October 24 entitled "1915 Ottoman-Turk Armenian Tragedy of the War Period" were seized by Scottish police at noon at the Stanstead Airport.

The four cassettes sent by the ASEF to the Edinburgh Symposium Committee so that they can be used in the symposium on the alleged "Armenian genocide," which will be held at the Edinburgh City Hall and attended by Retired Turkish Ambassador Gunduz Aktan and Professor Dr. Norman Stone from Koc University, contained the coverage of the conference and cine-vision sessions held at Istanbul Ataturk Cultural Center and of the Turks massacred by the Armenians during the 1915 events. The same contents were several times broadcasted by the Turkish Radio Television Corporation (TRT).




Every one is catching on! Ha Ha Ha

[Gavur]

Gun Control and Genocide

Gary North | April 27 2005

Sunday, April 24th marked the 90th anniversary of the first genocide of the twentieth century: the Turkish government’s slaughter of over a million unarmed Armenians. The key word is "unarmed."

The Turks got away with it under the cover of wartime. They suffered no greater postwar reprisals for this act of genocide than if they had not conducted mass murder of a peaceful people.

Other governments soon took note of this fact. It seemed like such a convenient international precedent.

Seventy-nine years after that genocide began, Hotel Rwanda opened for business.

The Hutus also got away with it. Ironically, at least a decade before – I wish I could remember the date – Harper’s ran an article predicting this genocide for this reason: the Hutus had machine guns. The Tutsis didn’t. The article was written as a kind of parable, not a politically specific forecast. I remember reading it at the time and thinking, "If I were a Tutsi, I’d emigrate."

It did not pay to be a civilian in the twentieth century. The odds were against you.

BAD NEWS FOR CIVILIANS

The twentieth century, more than any century in recorded history, was the century of man’s inhumanity to man. A memorable phrase, that. But it is misleading. It should be modified: "Governments’ inhumanity to unarmed civilians." In the case of genocide, however, this is not easily dismissed as collateral damage on a wartime enemy. It is deliberate extermination.

The twentieth century began officially on January 1, 1901. At that time, one major war was in full swing, so let us begin with it. That was the United States’ war against the Philippines, whose citizens had the naďve notion that liberation from Spain did not imply colonization by the United States. McKinley and then Roosevelt sent 126,000 troops to the Philippines to teach them a lesson in modern geopolitics. We had bought the Philippines fair and square from Spain for $20 million in December, 1898. The fact that the Philippines had declared independence six months earlier was irrelevant. A deal’s a deal. Those being purchased had nothing to say about it.

Back then, we did body counts of enemy combatants. The official estimate was 16,000 dead. Some unofficial estimates place this closer to 20,000. As for civilians, then as now, there were no official U.S.-reported figures. The low-ball estimate is 250,000 dead. The high estimate is one million.

Then World War I opened the floodgates – or, more accurately, the bloodgates.

TURKEY, 1915

The diplomatic game is always verbal. The G-word is verboten. Turks accept – though resent – "tragedy." Hence, all official reports from government-funded sources all over the world – except Armenia – refer to the "Armenian tragedy." This game of diplomacy has been going on since the end of World War I. Reagan was the only President to have used the correct term. President Bush diplomatically used "mass killings" in his a 2003 reference to the event. He also referred to "what many Armenian people have come to call the ‘Great Calamity.’" Many Armenians call it this? Really? Name two. He also said:

I also salute our wise and bold friends from Armenia and Turkey who are coming together in a spirit of reconciliation to consider these events and their significance. I applaud them for rising above bitterness, and taking action to create a better future. I wish them success, building on their recent and significant achievements, as they work together in a spirit of hope and understanding.

Again, name two.

Not being even remotely diplomatic in matters genocidal, I prefer to use the dreaded G-word. The Armenian genocide of 1915 had been preceded by a partial ethnic cleansing, which took two years, 1895–97. About 200,000 Armenians were executed.

This event served as the background for Elia Kazan’s great movie, America, America (1963), which was nominated for the Oscar in 1964. Kazan tells a fictionalized version of his Greek uncle’s emigration to America. Kazan’s family followed in 1913. The movie begins with a Greek and an Armenian, friends, who are warned by their former military officer, a Turk, of trouble coming. It comes. Turkish officials lock the Armenian along with other Armenians inside a church. Then they burn it down. The Greek sees this. He vows to get out of the Ottoman Empire and go to America. The movie traces his journey. America was a sanctuary. If ever there was a movie on America, the sanctuary, it’s America, America.

The Armenians were easily identifiable. Centuries earlier, the conquering Ottoman Turks had forced them to add the "ian/yan" sound to their last names. They were dispersed throughout the empire, so they did not possess the same kind of geographical concentrations and strongholds that other Christians did in Greece and the Balkans. They never did organize armed resistance forces. That was what led to their destruction. They could not fight back.

They were envied because they were rich and better educated than the ruling society. They were the businessmen of the Ottoman Empire. The same was true in Russia. The same resentment existed in Russia, though not with the intensity of the resentment in Turkey.

Non-Turkish estimates range from 800,000 to 1.5 million Armenians killed. Most of these deaths were low-tech but high efficiency. The army rounded up hundreds or thousands of civilians, drove them into wilderness areas, and waited until they starved to death.

GENOCIDE? NONSENSE!

It is still the official position of the Turkish government that this was not genocide; it was a relocation for military reasons. You see, there was a revolt being planned by Armenians and Russians in the border region of Van. This was the explanation provided in 1915 by the Turkish Consol General in New York, in a statement published in the October 15, 1915 issue of the New York Times. An autonomous republic was set up in Van, which was run by someone named Aram. (We read it here first.)

Then, somehow, things just got out of hand. The government was powerless. You know: just like all other governments during wartime with respect to the activities of officials in defense of the nation. Helpless. What’s a government to do? Therefore, in recent days, a minor official for the Turkish government has apologized.

"We apologize to the Armenians for us and our ancestors not having been able to prevent the Genocide." These are the words of Jashar Arif, representative of the International Exchange Confederation, who is a Turk. He has arrived in Armenia together with several other Turks to take part in the events of the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.

The Turkish government still maintains that the rulers had expected the Armenians to join with Russians to fight Turkey. As recently as April 24, the Philadelphia Enquirer reported that Yasar Yakis, the head of the Turkish Parliament’s European Union Affairs Committee, explained the reasons for the relocations. "The Armenians were relocated because they cooperated with the enemy, the Russians, and they . . . killed Ottoman soldiers from behind the lines."

Armenians were systematically killed all over the Empire, not just on the Russian border. Relocation to a camp usually means providing food, shelter, and basic amenities. It doesn’t mean letting people starve in the wilderness.

The written text of the government’s order is controversial. It was a state secret. One version was smuggled out of Turkey in 1916. It is posted online. As with all such secret orders, it should not be accepted automatically. But it serves as a starting point for full-scale research: open archives openly arrived at.

Our fellow countrymen, the Armenians, who form one of the racial elements of the Ottoman Empire, having taken up, as a result of foreign instigation for many years past, with a lot of false ideas of a nature to disturb the public order; and because of the fact that they brought about bloody happenings and have attempted to destroy the peace and security of the Ottoman state, and the safety and interests of their fellow countrymen, as well as of themselves; and, moreover, as they have now dared to join themselves to the enemy of their existence [i.e., Russia] and to the enemies now at war with our state – our Government is compelled to adopt extraordinary measures and sacrifices, both for the preservation of the order and security of the country and for the welfare and the continuation of the existence of the Armenian community. Therefore, as a measure to be applied until the conclusion of the war, the Armenians have to be sent away to places which have been prepared in the interior villages; and a literal obedience to the following orders, in a categorical manner, is accordingly enjoined on all Ottomans:

First. – All Armenians, with the exception of the sick, are obliged to leave within five days from the date of this proclamation, by villages or quarters, and under the escort of the gendarmerie.

Second. – Though they are free to carry with them on their journey the articles of their movable property which they desire, they are forbidden to sell their lands and their extra effects, or to leave the latter here and there with other people, because their exile is only temporary and their landed property, and the effects they will be unable to take with them, will be taken care of under the supervision of the Government, and stored in closed and protected buildings. Anyone who sells or attempts to take care of his movable effects or landed property in a manner contrary to this order, shall be sent before the Court Martial. They are free to sell to the Government only the articles which may answer the needs of the Army.

Third. – Contains a promise of safe conduct.

Fourth. – A threat against anyone attempting to molest them on the way.

Fifth. – Since the Armenians are obliged to submit to this decision of the Government, if some of them attempt to use arms against the soldiers or gendarmes, arms shall be employed against them and they shall be taken, dead or alive. In like manner those who, in opposition to the Government’s decision, refrain from leaving or seek to hide themselves – if they are sheltered or given food and assistance, the persons who thus shelter or aid them shall be sent before the Court Martial for execution.

What happened subsequently was fully consistent with this order.

The Turkish government said in 1989 that the archives regarding the non-existent genocide were now open. But, as it turned out, they were not open to Armenians studying the non-existent genocide.

What the archives prove, according to the Turkish government, is that the Turks were the victims of mass murder by Armenians. Yes, it’s hard to believe. But that’s what the archives show. We can take the Turkish government’s word for this. On April 25, a report appeared on the website of the International Relations and Security Network which is partially funded by the Swiss defense agency. Here, we read:

Armenians say at least 1 million of their ethnic kin died between 1915–17 as a result of a deliberate policy of extermination. They say the policy was initiated by the Committee of Union and Progress (Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyeti), or CUP, which then ruled over the empire. Ankara claims the death toll is grossly inflated and that 300,000 Armenians died during these years. It also says the deaths were the result of negligence, interethnic strife, or wartime operations. It says the CUP leaders – also known as the Young Turks – had no intention of wiping out the empire’s largest remaining Christian community. While admitting to the massive deportations of 1915 – which followed the massacre of 200,000 Greeks – Turkey’s official historiography says the transfers were aimed at preventing Armenians from collaborating with Russia. Tsarist Russia was then at war with the Ottoman Empire and its German ally. Turkey’s official historiography also asserts that more than 500,000 Turks died at the hands of Armenians between 1910–1922.

On April 25, 2005 – hot off the TurkishPress.com site – we learn of that ruthless counter-genocide.

Turkish Republican People’s Party (CHP) deputy leader Onur Oymen said on Monday, "if you must express grief about Armenian casualties, you also have to talk about more than half a million Turks who were killed in the same incidents."

In a written statement, Oymen said that the decision of the U.S. president Bush not to use the term "genocide" represents the reality.

We must not be too happy about Mr. Bush’s statements, told Oymen. "We know for sure that 513,000 Turks were butchered by Armenians. Don’t we have a right to ask for sympathy for the murdered Turks?"

"If you are going to mention these incidents and express grief for the Armenians who lost their lives in those incidents, it is our right to expect a word of sympathy for more than half million Turks in the same incidents."

All right, his story is a bit scrambled. It’s now up to 513,000 Turks in 1915–17, rather than 500,000 Turks 1912-22. But it’s all there. In the archives.

We are also assured by a spokesman of the Turkish Ministry of Justice that Turkey has had enough of this genocide nonsense. Quite enough. On April 25, 2005, TurkishPress.com posted this story.

Turkish Minister of Justice and Government Spokesman Cemil Cicek has indicated that, after many years of leaving the issue of so-called genocide to historians, it is now high time for Turkey to start disproving all allegations in various countries.

High time, indeed! Those historians, tied as they are to misleading primary source documents, simply cannot be trusted. They do not pay sufficient attention to primary source documents of official Turkish assurances for 90 years that nothing was happening or had happened, preferring instead to cite unreliable eyewitness accounts of what did happen. Armenian political influence is behind this.

Cicek noted that Armenians influenced the parliaments of the countries in which they are powerful and succeeded in obtaining parliament decisions in their favor in 15 countries.

Ah, yes: the well-known Armenian International Network, which dominates parliaments around the world.

As Turks, we wished that, instead of turning incidents of the past into a topic of hatred and anger, they should be brought to daylight by the historians with an approach looking at the future. . . .

Based on our archives and confidence in our history and culture, we can say that no genocide took place.

[Gavur]

Continued...

THE BLUE BOOK

What has stuck in the craw of the Turkish government for almost 90 years is an official report issued by the British government, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915–1916. If you don’t think governments stick by their official versions of history, consider this April 22, 2005 story in London’s Financial Times.

Turkey challenges genocide ‘fraud’

By Vincent Boland in Ankara

Published: April 22 2005

The Turkish parliament was yesterday preparing to ask the UK to repudiate a historical document that is considered to form the basis of the claim that Armenians were victims of genocide by Ottoman Turks during the first world war.

The initiative comes on the eve of Sunday’s 90th anniversary commemorations among Armenians of what they regard as the start of the massacre of up to 1.5m people.

The move is likely to exacerbate the bitter dispute between Turks and Armenians. Supporters of the Armenian cause, particularly in France, are lobbying for the European Union to delay the start of Turkey’s accession talks for EU membership until Turkey acknowledges a "systematic extermination" in 1915.

Turkish MPs completed and signed a letter to both houses of the UK parliament arguing that the document was "a fraud based on fabrications, half truths and biased reports and perceptions" of what happened and "a masterpiece of propaganda and tool of deception".

The document, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-1916, was written by the British historian Arnold Toynbee and included in a publication known as the Blue Book, by Viscount Bryce, a British diplomat. It was an official Westminster document, which is why the Turkish parliament wants the House of Commons and House of Lords to act.

Turkey rejects the charge of genocide. It insists that the true death toll among Armenians was about 600,000 and that many died from the effects of civil war, starvation and deportation. It says the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Turks at the time are overlooked.

The letter, which was made available yesterday by the Turkish parliament in the original Turkish and in English translation, will be sent to London imminently.

The letter says British propaganda in the first world war aimed to portray the destruction of the Ottoman Empire as a key aim of the war, to "render British colonialism in Anatolia and Mesopotamia palatable", and to encourage the US to join the Allied side. The Ottoman Empire collapsed into many nations after the war. Its Anatolian heartland is now Turkey.

The British embassy in Ankara declined to comment on the letter. Some Turkish historians say the document has stood the test of time; others say Mr Toynbee later distanced himself from its findings, which were based on eyewitness accounts.

The official UK position is that the massacres were "an appalling tragedy" but that the evidence is not "sufficiently unequivocal" to categorise them as genocide under the 1948 United Nations Convention on Genocide.

Viscount James Bryce was a master historian. His book, The American Commonwealth (1888), is still read by American historians as a primary source document regarding educated English opinion about America. He served as Ambassador to the United States from 1907–13.

The name Arnold Toynbee may ring a bell. By the 1950s, he was one of the most prominent historians on earth. His 12-volume study (1934–61) of 26 civilizations is unprecedented in its breadth. The Treatment of Armenians was his first major publication.

Why some Armenian organization has not bought a copy of Adobe Acrobat Pro 7 and scanned in the full volume, with the documents, remains a mystery to me. The book is in the public domain: pre-1923. But Toynbee’s summary is online. This section, which appears in Part VI, "The Deportations of 1915: Procedure," is enlightening. Read it carefully. It is the crucial aspect of the entire genocide. The government confiscated their guns.

A decree went forth that all Armenians should be disarmed The Armenians in the Army were drafted out of the fighting ranks, re-formed into special labour battalions, and set to work at throwing up fortifications and constructing roads. The disarming of the civil population was left to the local authorities, and in every administrative centre a reign of terror began. The authorities demanded the production of a definite number of arms. Those who could not produce them were tortured, often in fiendish ways; those who procured them for surrender, by purchase from their Moslem neighbours or by other means, were imprisoned for conspiracy against the Government. Few of these were young men, for most of the young had been called up to serve; they were elderly men, men of substance and leaders of the Armenian community, and it became apparent that the inquisition for arms was being used as a cloak to deprive the community of its natural heads. Similar measures had preceded the massacres of 1895–6, and a sense of foreboding spread through the Armenian people. "One night in winter" writes a foreign witness of these events," the Government sent officers round the city to all Armenian houses, knocking up the families and demanding that all weapons should be given up. This action was the death-knell to many hearts."

I own a copy of The Treatment of Armenians. Or, rather, my wife does. In it, there are two accounts of events in Van, which is where the Turks say a revolt broke out, thereby justifying the forced relocation. These reports were written by Y. K. Rushdooni (as it is spelled in The Treatment of Armenians), my wife’s grandfather. They are extremely detailed: street by street activities. Some might think they are just too detailed. Not so.

Y. K. Rushdoony had a photographic memory. Once, his son Haig caught him in his easy chair in front of the fire, head down, eyes closed. "You were sleeping," Haig kidded him. "I was meditating on what I have just read," he replied. "Come on," Haig said. "You were asleep." He handed Haig the book. "Ask me anything about the pages where the book is open to." Haig did. He said that his father began answering each question, word for word, by what was on the page. He went on for two pages. Haig told me this story 50 years later and confirmed it yesterday. "It was the only time I ever challenged him." When, in his old age, Y. K. began to lose his eyesight, he memorized dozens of psalms, so that he could read them at family gatherings. If his sons knew, they did not tell him. Haig, a Ph.D. in geography, has a good memory. Rousas John, his older brother, was also generally regarded as no slouch in the memory department – a master of the footnote. Ask him a question after one of his lectures, and you might get another lecture. (His dying words, after he had briefly exposited a passage that his son had read to him on his deathbed, were these: "Are there any questions?") But, compared to their father, they both said, they were outclassed.

On her way home in 1915, his pregnant wife came across her father’s remains in the street. He had been hacked to death. Y. K. took her, his young child, and a Ł100 sterling note that had been given to him when he graduated from Edinburgh, and fled across the border into Russia. The boy drowned in the escape. The money – hard currency – got the two of them across Russia to Archangel, and from there they bought passage to the United States. Rousas was born in 1916 in New York City.

GUN CONTROL

Lenin disarmed the Russians. Stalin committed genocide against the Kulaks in the 1930s. At least six million died.

The model for 1968 Gun Control Act – even the wording was taken from Hitler’s legislation of 1938, which was a revision of the 1928 law passed by the Weimar government. A good introduction to this politically incorrect history of American gun control is on jpfo.org: Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

When Mao’s troops took a village, they would kidnap rich people. They would then offer to return the victims in exchange for money. The victims would be released upon payment. Then they would be kidnapped again. This time, the demand was for guns. Then they would be released again. This made the deal look reasonable to the families of the next victims. But once they had the community’s guns, the mass arrests and executions began.

The idea that the individual has a right of self-defense is written into the U.S. Constitution: the second amendment. Carroll Quigley, who taught Bill Clinton history at Georgetown, was an expert in the history of weaponry. He wrote a 1,000-page book on medieval weaponry. He argued in Tragedy and Hope (1966) that the American Revolution was successful because the Americans possessed weapons that were comparable to those possessed by British troops. This, he said, was why there were a series of revolts against despotic governments in the eighteenth century. When government weapons became superior, the move toward smaller government ceased to be equally successful.

There is a reason why governments are committed to disarming their citizens. They want to maintain the monopoly of violence, no matter what. The idea of an armed citizenry is anathema to most politicians. After all, what’s a monopoly for, if not to be used?

CONCLUSION

Genocide happens.

It doesn’t happen whenever the would-be targets own guns.

[Gavur]

'1915 Ottoman-Turk Armenian Tragedy of the War Period' Symposium to be Held in Edinbu

10.24.2005 Monday - ISTANBUL 09:45

By Anadolu News Agency
Published: Sunday, October 23, 2005
zaman.com


A symposium entitled "1915 Ottoman-Turk Armenian Tragedy of the War Period" will be held in Edinburgh, Scotland, on October 24.

Retired Turkish Ambassador Gunduz Aktan and Professor Norman Stone of Koc University in Istanbul will deliver speeches at the symposium organized by the Federation to Fight Against the Unfounded Armenian Allegations (ASEF) and the Britain Turkish Associations Confederation.

Images of Turks massacred by Armenian guerillas in CDs and DVDs seized by the Scottish police on Saturday at noon at the Stanstead Airport will be shown, if the problem is solved, to the participants of the symposium, which will be held at the Edinburgh City Hall.

The Edinburgh City Council had put a motion recognizing the alleged “Armenian Genocide” to vote on 2 June 2005 as a result of an 18-month propaganda activity of Armenian lobbies but the voting had been suspended due to counter initiatives.

The Edinburgh City Council had approved the right of the Turkish community in Britain to organize a symposium on the events of 1915 from their own perspective thanks to negotiations carried out by the Britain Turkish Associations Confederation.

London


They probably thought it was drugs

[Gavur]

Armenia: A Neighbor From Hell?

Dr. Sedat Laciner

Journal of Turkish Weekly, Turkey
Oct 25 2005

Armenian President Robert Kocharian was on a two-day visit to
Brussels . Mr. Kocharian met many European leaders and important
EU figures including Guy Verhofstad (Belgium Prime Minister), Jozep
Borell-Fontels (President of the European Parliament), Javier Solana
(EU High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy), Jose
Manuel Barroso (European Commission President), Jaap de Hoop Scheffer
(NATO Secretary-General). Mr. Armenian President 'squealed' on . He
complained about everywhere in Brussels . According to Kocharian Turkey
is the only one who is responsible for everything goes bad in Armenia
and in Caucasus: Turkey caused democracy and human rights problems in
Armenia; Turkey undermined Armenian economy; Turkey does not open its
borders for the poor Armenians; Turkey does not recognise what the
Ottomans did in 1918; Turkey helps Azerbaijanis against Armenians;
Turkey constructs a railway with Georgia and Azerbaijan etc. did bad
this, did bad that...

No one asked Kocharian why Armenian forces occupied about 20 percent
of neighboring ? No European leader questioned why about 1 million
Azerbaijanis from occupied territories are still refugees? Neither
Barroso nor Scheffer urged Armenian President to recognise 's and 's
national borders immediately? And none of them asked Mr. Kocharian why
he is obsessed with the events happened almost 100 years ago instead
of studying the current problems in the region? has nuclear reactor
with very old technology, but there is no real pressure on Armenians
to renew it!... Strange, but seems the golden child of the West. They
can do anything they wish, and no one criticizes Armenians even they
threaten their almost all neighbors.

When the Soviet Union collapsed and realized that the only way to
become a really independent state is to escape the Russian influence.

Both countries first tried to remove the Russian bases from their
territories. Second they established close relations with the , EU,
and other regional states including . punished both of them for this.

The ethnic clashes have never ended in and Tbilisi still suffers
from the Russian involvement in the country. The bloody riots
and instability in were also Russia-made. Russian military openly
supported the Armenian occupying forces in Karabakh against . Both
and publicly declared that they seek to become NATO and EU members
in near future. opened its territories to the soldiers and made
any possible co-operation with the NATO and US in and operations. ,
and with the Western countries searched the regional integration ways
and they mainly used the economic instruments to integrate the region
into the rest of the world. The most significant step in these efforts
was the BTC (Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan) Pipeline Project. The BTC pipeline
will run through to the Turkish port of Ceyhan on the Mediterranean
coast. The project, led by British oil giant BP with the support of
the government, covers 1,760 km (1,094 miles). All of these countries
have great hopes regarding the project. The project will mostly
put an end to the economic problems and will provide a environment
suitable for open societies. The project will affect the region in
political ways as well. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said
"I have no false illusions that this one pipe will be able to solve
all our problems, but this is a start. This pipeline marks a major
step toward the independence of both and ." However Saakashvili
also warned about the obstacles: he said that "some forces had tried
to stop the project but had failed". It is obvious that these some
forces were and . Armenian diaspora in Europe and North America did
anything to sabotage the Project. Thanks God, they failed and the
BTC will guarantee the stability and economic development in the
region. Similarly , and started a trans-Caucasus railway project to
integrate three countries and Caucasus to Europe .

Normally wants to include to this project, yet the Armenian forces
still occupy the Azerbaijani territories. As expected the Armenian
Diaspora and again opposed the railway project and claimed the project
was against Armenian interests.

Contrary to the Azerbaijani and Georgian policies, Yerevan chose a
different path after the collapse of the Soviet Union : strangely
approached the Russians to become independent because Armenians
thought that independence equals more territories. Nationalist
Armenians dreamed to establish a greater . Jevahiti (Georgia),
Nakhcivan and Karabakh () were the first to be conquered. opened more
and more its territories to the Russian forces. 's economic, military
and political influence rocketed in , possibly became higher than the
Soviet period. Armenians found another friend in time: . The so-called
Islamist Iran supported in many ways instead of Muslim Azerbaijan in
many areas including Karabakh issue.

It is obvious that is like a 'neighbor from hell' in the Caucasus for
almost all Caucasian states. However criticizes and other neighbors.

The Armenian leader argues that " is not true European". He asks the
EU leaders not to accept till it recognises the Armenian 'genocide'
allegations. It is really difficult to understand. How a leader
could be so obsessive with the past while the current problems are
growing and growing. Armenian politicians should understand that
they are not history lecturer or a priest. Real world needs real
leaders. All we respect the tragedy Armenians experienced and we
expect the same respect for our tragedies. But past is past and we
should not sacrifice today for the past or politicians obsessions. is
ready to discuss the historical disputes with . Ankara declared that
it is ready to open the borders with . However Armenians have taken
no concrete step. They just insist on the well-known allegations.

says 'economy', Yerevan says 'genocide'...

says 'security', Yerevan says 'genocide'...

says 'Karabakh', Yerevan says 'genocide'...

says 'regional integration', says 'genocide'...

says 'co-operation'; says 'genocide'...

What says or makes is not important for the Armenians. Their answer
has always been the same: "genocide, genocide, genocide"... pushes
's patient limits. more needs and the other neighbors than the region
needs . However the EU leaders strangely and dangerously encourage
the Armenians in wrong policies for their short-term interests. The
European Parliament President for instance said yesterday that 's
recognition of the so-called Armenian genocide and opening of borders
with should become a topic of discussions in 's EU accession talks.

There is a strong resistance against 's full-membership in the EU
states and this anti-Turkish groups abuse the Armenian issue to
prevent 's membership. Armenians provide the prefect tool to them,
because the Armenian issue has no solution. It is really satisfy
Armenian obsessions with the past.

Brussels should to decide whether or the whole Caucasus is more
important for the EU... And should give up the childish policies like
preventing pipeline projects or railways. should focus on constriction
peace, stability and regional economy instead of obsession of
prevention or de-constructing.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=1798

'genocide'...

'genocide'...

'genocide'...

'genocide'...

'genocide'...

[Gavur]

Viscount Bryce

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1915/bryce/

[maral_m79]

Dr. Sedat Laciner

Journal of Turkish Weekly, Turkey
Oct 25 2005

...

Sedate Laciner got a good answer for that, check out "Davit Whitman" in Letters to Editor section ....

http://www.turkishweekly.net/letters.php

[Gavur]

Asbarez.com Hacked

On October 31, in the afternoon, information on Asbarez's website was deleted
by hackers. The website was restored shortly and our provider has launched an
investigation into the matter.
© 2005 ASBAREZ ONLINE. All Rights Reserved.
ASBAREZ provides this news service for academic research or personal use only and may not be reproduced in or through mass media outlets.
URL:www.asbarez.com

[Gavur]

Karabakh Armenians want to vote in Azeri polls

Baku Today, Azerbaijan
Nov 6 2005



Karabakh Armenians have responded to the appeal from the Azerbaijani
Central Electoral Commission [CEC].


The commission has received letters from ethnic Armenian citizens of
Azerbaijan registered in 122 Xankandi [Stepanakert] constituency, the
secretary of the commission, Natiq Mammadov, said.

The CEC called upon ethnic Armenian citizens of Azerbaijan to vote in
the 6 November parliamentary election.


Mammadov said that the authors of the letter praised the decision to
set up the constituency and expressed their desire to vote in the
election. They also complained about the Nagornyy Karabakh separatist
regime led by Arkadiy Gukasyan and praised the policy of the
Azerbaijani authorities.

Mammadov said that the names of the authors of the letter cannot be
made public for security reasons.



Turns out they fond the guy but it doesnt count because he was DIASPORIAN...

[Gavur]

Armenian Letter 5: Maral Der Ohanesian's Letter

Maral Der Ohanesian'
Armenian Letter 5 : My Response to Your Letter 4

Dear Editor, Here are my comments on your last response. They are as follows (in the same sequence as your titles and I added one at the end):

“‘DENY’ AND NATIONAL HONOR”

* You wrote: “Many Armenians cannot understand why the Turkish people do not accept their arguments, because they have unchangeable assumptions about the Turkish people.”
- This is not true, Armenians are not convinced by the Turkish argument, because they had witnessed the Ottoman abuse and Genocide first hand, I for one am 100% descendent of Ottoman citizen Armenians, all four of my grandparents were Ottoman citizen Armenians, and survived that abuse, and I don’t think that it is possible to anyone in my shoes to “believe” a denialist’s claims against her own family history!!

* You wrote “The Church and political parties in the Diaspora rewrote the history about the Turks.”

- The question that imposes itself here is, if you are right, then how come that history “Matches” with the other historical sources and official archives of WWI, of both enemies and allies of Ottoman Empire, and testimonies of Turks themselves?!

* You wrote “According to this history Turks may do anything bad to the Armenians and against humanity. Turks are infidel, Turks are dirty and they are thirst to blood.”

- In a speech he made in Baku , May 1992, in his last trip before he died, Turgut Ozal, the former Turkish PM, blatantly threatened the Armenians by saying: “Let those Armenians not forget what we did to them. Let them behave themselves or else....”

Let me share with you some interesting statement made by a well educated Turk, in an open letter to the “Ladies and Gentlemen of the Armenian Diaspora” that was posted on a Turkish denialist site. Kufi Saydali threatened the Armenians openly, by saying: “he who lives by the sword, must be prepared to die by the sword.” Mr. Saydali continued threatening the Armenians by saying that if they won’t give up the Genocide claims, there will be a “strong” Turkish “Reaction.” He wrote: “Don't you know that, to every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction? In fact, with the Turks, this opposite reaction is mostly not equal but much much stronger. If you don't believe me, ask your Greek friends, they can tell you more about it. They have tasted it in Inonu, Sakarya, Izmir , and more recently, in .”

So Dr. Laciner, do you still blame people for having the “monster” image in mind about the Turks?

* You wrote: “They needed to create enemy to unite the Armenians in the , , Europe and other countries.”

- The Armenians who survived in the past 5000 years do not need a common enemy for their solidarity. This is not a creation of an enemy. It’s a common experience shared by the “Survivors” and their offspring.

In a masterpiece of a poem titled “An Evening Promenade”, written soon after he was released from prison, Nazim Hikmet, one of the finest Turkish poets, mentions his Armenian friend “Karabet” who:






“...shall never forgive, until his death
Those responsible for his [Karabet’s] father's slaughter
In the Kurdish mountains.
He still hates them...
But [the poet concludes addressing himself]
Karabet loves you
Because he knows well
That you yourself have not forgiven
Those responsible for the shame brought on the Turkish people.”[1]





The stigma of the Genocide is the main reason for “innocent denials” of the Genocide when someone doesn’t know the truth of what had happened, but trying his best not to believe that it, in fact, was Genocide, like yourself. The worry of being classified in the same category with the Nazis is another reason for it. Just because of National Honor many Turks refuse to accept historical, universally accepted facts of the Armenian Genocide. Well, let me remind you, my friend, “National Honor” can not “Change” historical events, “National Honor” can not “defend” a bunch of criminals and “Convert” them to National Heroes. Turkish people should not be “proud” of criminals like Talat, traitors like Enver and butchers like Cemal. Turkish people should be proud with real heroes not a bunch of criminals who, for the whole world’s concern, are dumped in the cesspool of history. That’s why need to reconcile with its past before aiming at reconciliation with Armenians.

“TURKS DO NOT THINK ON THE PAST AND ARMENIANS?”

* You wrote: “We cannot construct a dialogue and I feel very bad when I try to speak with an Armenian. He/she insults you, and does not allow saying anything.”

- Can you blame any Armenian if he/she insults you in reaction to your insult of him/her?! Let me explain to you again, my friend, that brazen denial of the Armenian Genocide is an insult and offense to any Armenian whose parents had survived that Genocide. Please don’t blame any Armenian for not being able to withstand the re-victimization nor accepting your (unintentional maybe) insults, and for not having the patience to try and explain to you the facts that he/she knew first hand from his/her parents “the survivors”, because with the Genocide denial, one is re-victimizing the victims, by blaming them for it, and calling them liars.

* You wrote: “Hrant Dink plans to establish one in Istanbul .” Well, Hrant Dink was given a six-month suspended sentence last week.

* You wrote: “There are many Armenian churches and communities in many Turkish towns including in the city I live now.”

- A statistical research ordered by the Ottoman Interior Ministry to Archbishop Maghakia Ormanian from the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople during 1912-1913, concluded that there were 2200 Armenian monasteries and churches in western Armenia [modern eastern Turkey], before 1914.

In 1974, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) published data, according to which 197 of 913 Armenian monuments standing after the genocide could be saved by immediate reconstruction, while the rest were already destroyed.

In 1980, the Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul declared that out of 2000 Armenian churches before 1915 there were six left, and that was only 6 years after the UNESCO report.

As for the present day Eastern Turkey or Western Armenia , there is “ONLY ONE” functioning church, in the “ONLY ONE” remained Armenian community in the “Whole” of what was once known “The Armenian vilayets” or “Ermenistan,” and that is in the area of Musa Ler / Musa Dagh.

How did All those Armenians Vanish?!


“GERMANS AND GENOCIDE”

* You wrote: “The Genocide maker image has cost a lot to . That is why the Germans have tried to find new genocides, so they could show all the peoples that they are not the alone.”

As I said earlier, the Official German archive for WWI is full of documents that prove the Armenian Genocide. German Academic Publishing House published few months ago a 500-page book by Wolfgang Gust titled “The Armenian Genocide, 1915/16: Documents from the Diplomatic Archives of the German Foreign Office”. In this book there are 235 published Official German documents clearly indicating that what had happened to the Armenians in 1915-16 was a premeditated, centrally organized massive crime against the Armenians.

didn’t need to show the world that it was not alone as you concluded the reason for German recognition. In fact, if you had read the “Text” of the Armenian Genocide recognition by the German Bundestag (Parliament), in June 15, 2005, you would’ve known that what you are asserting is not true. Because Germany in this resolution, not only recognized the fact of the Armenian Genocide 1915, but also regretted its own responsibility (Germany’s responsibility) in the Armenian Genocide, even if that was by turning a blind eye to all these crimes by the Ottoman Empire. So recognized another Genocide in its History, and it wasn’t trying to improve its image by blaming others.





The opening part of ’s Recognition Resolution, was approved and supported by all the political factions in the Bundestag, including the ruling party, read:

“The German Bundestag honors and commemorates the victims of violence, murder and expulsion among the Armenian people before and during the First World War. The Bundestag deplores the deeds of the Young Turkish government in the Ottoman Empire which have resulted in the almost total annihilation of the Armenians in Anatolia . It also deplores the inglorious role played by the German Reich which, in spite of a wealth of information on the organized expulsion and annihilation of Armenians, has made no attempt to intervene and stop these atrocities.” [2]
You wrote: “What I am trying to say that the Germans were Turks’ ally, yet they never fully supported the Turkish people in all areas.”

The German Government in WWI, as the German Bundestag (Parliament) acknowledged, had fully supported the Ottoman Empire, and did absolutely nothing to stop or intervene these atrocities against Armenians, in spite of it’s “Full” awareness of what was going on, and if Germany were to sympathize with Armenians because they were Christians, as you were implying, then it would’ve at least tried to stop the Ottomans from Exterminating the Armenian Population.

For more details, refer to Harut Sassounian’s analytic column of June 23, 2005, titled “German Parliament Deals Fatal Blow To Turkish Denial of Genocide” http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.ph...al_of_Genocide.


“OTTOMAN ARCHIVES”

* You wrote: “The İstanbul Government tried its best to find the highest possible Armenian populations because of the tax.…. So there is no reason to doubt about the Ottoman figures.”

- Let’s have a word about the “Tax Collecting” procedure in the Ottoman Empire ’s late decades. In his account Seddik El-Demluji, while he was a government official in one of the Ottoman vilayets, explained how “ People look at it [the tax collecting offices] as a way to plunder people’s money. The responsible officer assesses the tax amounts without any legal calculation [according to what he desires] and then collect it with the force of law: that is prison, confiscation and torture … and the tax collectors had set the record for their bribery and they did even “purchase” their posts from the villayet’s Defterdar [treasurer], and each county’s price is calculated by the Defterdar according to it’s size and resources.” [3]





Historian Kemal M. Ahmed, refer to the inaccuracy of Ottoman records saying: “Their [Ottoman official’s] control over Kurdistan [Kurdish areas] was very obviously diminished, even their presence was completely unnoticeable in the mountainous areas, and among the strong [Kurdish] tribes.” [4]

As you can see how the Ottomans were collecting their taxes, and how it would not have been possible for them to have accurate records in all areas. Thus counting more people didn’t mean more taxes, since the tax amounts were assessed differently according to the tax collectors’ desire.

* You wrote: “In fact some of the Armenian leaders asked for independence. The problem was that they asked the Russians and the European powers to establish a separate country.”

- You haven’t provided any evidence for your claim, and Armenians never claimed autonomy, but only reforms. In the treaty of Berlin 1878, the Armenians were asking for “reforms” and not autonomy, those reforms were democracy, freedom of press, a parliamentary system, they were demanding to improve the lives of Armenians, as well as Turks, and Arabs. The same demands that the Turks themselves were asking for. And do not forget that the Ottoman Government had accepted and signed the Treaty of Berlin, thus pledging to apply these reforms “according to article 61 in the treaty” in the Armenian provinces.


“DECLINING ARMENIAN POPULATION”

* About Dr. Shaw’s figures you wrote “So I cannot see any problem with Shaw’s figures. By the way the was a census study was started in 1905 and it concluded in 1914.”

So as you say, the “actual” census started 1905, and the population figure was concluded after 9 years in 1914, right? Then where did Dr. Shaw come up with those two figures from, claiming that the first was 1906 census, and the second was 1914 census?!

Now let me re-quote you about Dr. Shaw’s numbers from your letter 3, you wrote “In 1906 the population of Muslims was 15.518.478, and the population of Armenians was 1.140.563. In 1914 Muslim Ottoman population reached to 15.044.846 and the Armenian population was 1.229.007, according to Prof. Shaw.”

So according to you and Shaw, there are two figures for only “one” census, 1905’s, but how can this be possible? Therefore one of those two numbers must be fabricated?!

And again let me remind you, that the number of the victims doesn’t prove whether genocide was committed or not!

* You wrote: “You say that the Turkish Government donates 3 million dollars to Institute of Turkish Studies in Washington . You give no proof.”

Of course I do have proof. Like I would jeopardize my credibility and say something like that without a proof!! I am not a Liar you know.

The proof you can find in the very same Institute of Turkish Studies (ITS) website, in it’s published in 82 pages “ITS Report 1982-2002”: http://turkishstudies.org/itsreport.doc, this report “clearly” admits that it was founded by the Turkish government, and is still financed until today by annual income from the foundation “Gift” of the Turkish Government, page 14 reads:
“The Institute of Turkish Studies was established in 1983 through a one-time gift from the Republic of Turkey invested in a trust fund. The annual income derived from this trust fund constitutes its primary funding base.”

So as the Institute admits, it is TOTALLY dependant on Turkish Government’s Money with Dr. Faruk Loğoğlu, the Ambassador of the Republic of Turkey to the U.S. (page 12), as the Institute’s Honorary Chairman. In the section of “Purpose And Objectives,” you can read that one of the main purposes of this institute is “To support the publication of books and journals that contribute to American scholarship on Turkey, and to broaden the understanding and knowledge of Turkish history, society, politics, and economics in the United States” (page 8).

In the section of “Annual Grant Program,” the institute proudly declare that: “The grants awarded to individuals and institutions during the past twenty years have made a major contribution to the promotion of scholarship and knowledge about in the . ITS graduate research and dissertation-writing grants have played an important role in the training of many scholars of Turkish studies who are currently teaching in various American universities” (page 20).

In the same page ITS admits that: “To date, the Institute has awarded 968 grants for a total value of $2,314,262. The grant program for the 2002-2003 academic year provided support for 25 projects (14 individual and 11 institutional) in the amount of $107,000.” A lot of details are provided in the website: how many and which “Universities” received monetary grants from ITS, which projects were funded by ITS money, who was in charge of these projects, which college professors received money from ITS, how much and how many times they received money from the ITS, etc.

The report also stated that “ITS has been a major source of funding support for conferences, workshops, and lecture series on topics related to the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey in the American academia.” (page 66)

As for Dr. Stanford J. Shaw, of UCLA, the ITS report declared that he received monetary grants from the institute, thus Turkish Government, for “Six” consequent academic years, from 1985 to 1991. And the details are as follows:

1985-1986 - Stanford J. Shaw ( Republic of Turkey databank at University of California , Los Angeles ) p.79.

1986-1987 - Stanford J. Shaw ( Republic of Turkey databank at University of California , Los Angeles ) p.80.

1987-1988 - Stanford J. Shaw (Development of an online database of bibliographic and text materials on and the Ottoman Empire ) p.80.

1988-1989 - Stanford J. Shaw (Produce photocopies of British intelligence reports for “History of the Turkish War of Independence, 1918-1923”) p.81.

1989-1990 - Stanford J. Shaw, Research on “Jews of the Ottoman Empire ” and “Turkish War for Independence.” p.38.

1990-1991 - Stanford J. Shaw, Research on Status and Experience of Turkish Jewry in 20th Century. p. 38.

Interestingly, Dr. Shaw had “stopped” publishing new books on the Armenian Genocide after 1991!! What does that tell you about Shaw’s work?! Totally financed by Turkish money, admitted by Turks themselves.

Now, the earlier published reports of the Institute of Turkish Studies (ITS), the institute used to mention the $3 million foundation money of it, which was set by the Turkish Government. The Boston Globe newspaper had published more details on the subject in 1995, in an article titled “Turkish endowment gifts to U.S. colleges spur debate over study of Armenian massacre,” it reported that: “For 10 years, Lowry directed the Institute of Turkish Studies in Washington, a lobby set up in 1982 with $3 million from the Turkish government and annual funding from Ankara. A 1992 institute report cites its own "key role ... in encouraging the government of to embark upon a plan of endowing a series of chairs in Turkish studies at major American universities".” [5]

* You wrote:“Armenian lobbying institutions spend more than 60 million dollars each year to undermine Turkish interests in the world.”

- I gave you the proof you need. Now, it’s Your Turn to tell me what proof you have to support your claim of the “astronomical” figure of $60 million that Armenians supposedly spend each year?!

Last month, a board member of some Turkish denial site, the so-called "Turkish Forum,” Hanimefendi Fatma Sarikaya, published a translation and summary of article titled “Money spent by the Armenian lobby in ” authored by Senol Kantarci, an Assistant Professor at Erzrum University , claiming that Armenians had spent $7 million on the lobbying in the in one year. In answering that baseless claim, Harut Sassounian exposes Kantarci’s lies in his column titled: “Turks scare themselves by claiming Armenians spend millions on lobbying.” http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/archive/37808.html. I strongly recommend that you read it, before making such far-fetched claims in the future.

* You wrote: “More than 520.000 Turkish and Kurdish were massacred by the Armenian extremists.”

In your earlier message you stated that according to the Ottoman records, there were “Only” 1,200,000 Armenians in 1914, and as we all know, the Ottoman archival documents published in 1983 stated that “800,000 Armenian women, old men and children were deported.” Are you trying to convince me that the 400,000 Armenians who were “supposedly” left in Turkey after the deportation, according to Ottoman records, (who were of course not all revolutionaries, if there were any left, and they were not all able bodied men, as we both agreed earlier that able bodied men were all driven to war fronts), so after we exclude all that, you are trying to convince me that “supposedly” those few hundred thousand women, old men and children killed 520,000 Turks?! How on earth that can be possible?! I hope you see now how much the denialists’ claims are contradictory.