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Epitome of Denial

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  • #11
    Cont.

    FATE OF ARMENIAN CHILDREN IN THE GENOCIDE OF 1915





    * You wrote: “If you accept that many Armenian children were adopted by the Turkish families and many Armenian women were married with the Turkish people you should have realized that the Turkish people cannot be racist.”

    - Although I had used the word “absorbed” rather than “adopted,” that doesn’t mean there were no adopting incidents. As Armenians can not forget the criminal atrocities that were perpetrated against them, Armenians also can’t forget the righteous and kind Turks and Kurds and Arabs who spared their lives, challenging the “Governmental Orders” and threats of not hiding any Armenian within their households. Many Turks, Kurds and Arabs had saved lives of their Armenians neighbors and friends, or even strangers, an act of kindness that no Armenian will forget. You are right. The Turkish “People” are not racists, but the Ittihadist government was. Chanting the slogan, “ for the Turks,” they decided to get rid of the largest Christian minority who was refusing to be “Turkified” to fulfill their “Pan-Turkic Empire” dream.

    But, all of the kidnapped, sold and adopted Armenians were raised as Turks after some nominal rituals of conversion to Islam, including circumcisions and name changes, thus, lost their identity and absorbed into the mainstream of Turkish society. I don’t think that it is needed to point out here that they were not willingly converted into Turks and Muslims, for they were helpless children.

    The Ittihadist government needed to do a complete job in extermination of all Armenians, without sparing anyone’s life. Those who miraculously survived this genocide always remember the soldiers shouting to each other: “Kill them, kill them all, so no one will come to take their revenge in the future”. Accordingly, the Ittihad leaders decided to rely on “bloodthirsty murderers” (kanli katil) as instruments of massacre. Thousands of felons and repeat criminals were selected and released from the various prisons of the Ottoman Empire for massacre duty; they were to show no compassion or mercy for women, children or the infirm.

    One would be mistaken if he thought that all Armenian children’s lives were spared during the genocide, because for a sane human being, it is too heinous to kill an innocent harmless child. But children killings and torture was, in fact, another chapter of this massive crime against my ancestors.

    For example, in his account, Signor Gorrini, the Italian Consul-General at Trabzon, in a detailed report called attention to the fact that: “The children [were] torn away from their families… placed by hundreds on board ship in nothing but their shirts, and then capsized and drowned in the Black Sea and the river Degirmendere- these are my ineffaceable memoirs of Trabzon memoirs which still, at a month’s distance, torment my soul and almost drive me frantic….”

    More confirmation to that testimony came from Turkish officials themselves. The most poignant testimony on drowning operations was provided by the Turkish deputy of Trabzon province, Hafiz Mehmet, who by profession was a lawyer. In a postwar speech, in December 11, 1919, in the Chamber of Deputies of the Ottoman Parliament, he revealed that he personally saw how, one day, Armenian women and children were loaded onto barges at the port city of Ordu in Trabzon province and drowned in the high seas. He then stated that the local people were lamenting with the words, "God will punish us for what we did." At the 15th sitting of the Trabzon trial series 1919, Turkish Ordu merchant Hüseyin, appearing as a witness, confirmed this very operation of drowning. In its Verdict, the Tribunal with emphasis referred to these operations of mass drownings targeting as they especially did "male and female infants" (zükur ve inas cocuklari) with the help of "repeat criminals" (cerayimi mükerrere).

    During the proceedings of the Turkish Military Tribunal in Spring 1919, some two dozen Turks, including physicians, military officers, governmental officials, and merchants, in the course of twenty sittings, testified orally and in writing to the methods used to dispose of children. [6]








    Two Turkish MDs, Dr. Ziya Fuad, Inspector of Health Services, and Dr. Adnan, the city's Health Services Director, testified based on evidence gathered from local Turkish physicians that Dr. Ali Saib, Director of Public Health of Trabzon province, systematically poisoned Armenian infants brought to the city's Red Crescent Hospital and ordered the drowning at the nearby Black Sea of those who resisted taking his “medicine.” Another method Dr. Saib applied in a house full of Armenian infants was “the steam bath.” Through the installation there of an army “etüv” contraption, babies were exposed to suffocating hot steam and thereby instantly killed. Father Laurent, the French Capucin Father Superior in Trabzon , testified through an interpreter that he personally saw the corpses of the dead poisoned children being squeezed into large, deep baskets on the hospital grounds, like animals from a slaughterhouse, and then dumped into the nearby sea.

    That same Red Crescent Hospital had been reduced to a pleasure dome, where the province's governor-general, Cemal Azmi, was keeping fifteen young girls[7], to be used for frequent sex orgies. This fact had prompted Customs Inspector Nedim to denounce the governor. [8] and Turkish Lieutenant Hasan Maruf to expose the additional fact that “After committing the worst outrages the government officials involved had these young girls killed.” In a separate study, a young Armenian who had befriended the governor's son in Berlin , where the governor had taken refuge right after the war to escape prosecution in , provided additional data on this episode of lethal debaucheries. During one of his boastful narrations about this debauchery, Governor Azmi told the following to the young Armenian, whom he believed to be a Turk as the latter had by then assumed a complete Muslim Turkish identity, including the Turkish name Mehmet Ali, a thorough study of the Kuran, and circumcision: “Among the most pretty Armenian girls, 10-13 years old, I selected a number of them and handed them over to my son [who was then 14 years old] as a gift; the others I had drowned in the sea.” [9]





    The sexual abuse during the Armenian Genocide was not limited to young Armenian females. A Swiss pharmacist who throughout the war remained in Urfa and traveled extensively in the area asserts that widespread homosexual rape occurred both in connection with genocidal killings and in Turkish homes where young Armenian boys were kept as adoptees. As he reported, “Turkish officers, especially, inflicted unbelievable and unspeakable acts of bartering upon Armenian girls, but nobody can imagine the magnitude of crimes of unnatural sex inflicted upon hundreds, yes thousands, of Armenian boys.” He also stated that “long after the killings had stopped, rapes, acts of deflowering virgins and other forms of sexual violations, especially of young boys, continued.” [10]





    Other examples of abusing and torturing children involved rape before murder. In Ankara province, near the village of Bash-Ayash , two rapist-killers - a brigand, Deli Hasan, and a gendarme, Ibrahim - raped twelve boys, aged 12-14, and subsequently killed them. Those who were not dead at once were tortured to death while crying "Mummy, Mummy." [11]






    The German M.D. H. Stoffels, staff physician, reported to the Austrian consul in Trabzon that on his way to Mosul he came across in Mush (and Siirt in the same province) “a large number of formerly Armenian localities, where in the churches and houses he saw charred and decomposed corpses of women and children” (verkohlte und verweste Frauen- und Kinderleichen). [12]





    Need I say more about the fate of the innocent Armenian children and young girls whose only crime was being Armenian…?!

    Allow me here to share my own grandfather’s experience, he was 10 years old in 1915, he lost both of his parents and his 6 sisters who were killed during the deportation, he was “kidnapped” and “sold” four time, from one family to another. Through out that time my grandfather’s name was changed to “Hussein” and he was forbade to speak Armenian or even to think of declaring his Armenian origin in front of anyone. For two years, he lived as a slave to the last family that had bought him. Two dry pieces of bread were his only food for the entire day. He looked after the man’s sheep from early morning until dark. For months, he planned his escape. He ate one piece of bread and sold the other one. He finally managed to save enough money to buy a train ticket and escape to an Arab country. Then through a humanitarian organization, he managed to find his older brother after years of separation. This child, who grew to be my grandfather, couldn’t get over the pain of orphanhood and suffered for the rest of his life from the mistreatment that he had endured as a youngster. I remember seeing him crying whenever he remembered those childhood days, until the last days of his almost 8 decades of life. With physical and spiritual scars my grandfather survived, and he formed a new Armenian family. If he hadn’t manage to escape that Turkish family, I might have been a Turk today, as well as my 6 other siblings and cousins, and for generations to come!!

    In his article titled “Would you wish to be an Armenian in 1915?” [13] Ahmet Altan wrote:








    “No one is denying that Armenians were murdered, right? It may be 300,000, or 500,000, or 1.5 million. I don't know which number is the truth…. What I do know is the existence of the death and pain beyond these numbers…Those numbers cannot describe the murdered babies, women, the elderly, the teenage boys and girls….”

    He continues: “When I see the shadow of this bloody event on the present world, I see a greater injustice done to the Armenians. Our crime today is not to allow the present Armenians even to grieve for their cruelly killed relatives and parents. Which Armenian living in today can openly grieve and commemorate a murdered grandmother, grandfather or uncle? I have nothing in common with the terrible sin of the past Ittihadists, but the sin of not allowing grief for the dead belongs to all of us today… Even in those terrifying times there were Turks who risked their lives trying to rescue Armenian children. We are the children of these rescuers, as well as the children of the murderers. Instead of justifying and arguing on behalf of the murderers, why don't we praise and defend the rescuers' compassion, honesty, and courage?”

    Encouraging the Turks to follow the steps of their righteous grandparents who rescued the Armenians he wrote: “There are no more victims left to be rescued today…I still believe there is something yet to be rescued from all these meaningless and pitiless arguments, and that something is called ‘humanity.’”






    Regards, Maral Der Ohanesian











    Notes:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [1] Nazim Hikmet, Poems, in Eastern literary Armenian, translated by Gevork Emin, Yerevan :
    Haypethrat , 1986, p. 112. Revised from the original Turkish by K.I.Pilikian.

    [2] German Bundestag Printed matter 15/5689 15th electoral period June 15, 2005

    [3] Saddik El-Demluji, “Emaret Behdean” , Mosul 1952, p. 80-86.

    [4] Kemal M. Ahmed “ Kurdistan in The Years Of The First World War” 2nd ed. 1984, p. 83

    [5] The Boston Globe, “Turkish endowment gifts to colleges spur debate over study of Armenian massacre” Nov 24, 1995 - 21:51 EST. http://users.ids.net/~gregan/globe.html .

    [6] Vahakn N. Dadrian, "The Turkish Military Tribunal's Prosecution of the Authors of the Armenian Genocide: Four Major Court-Martial Series," Holocaust and Genocide Studies. Vol. 11, No. 1 (Spring 1997), pp. 39-42 on The Trabzon Series.

    [7] Turkish Military Tribunals, Court-Martial 10th sitting, April 12, 1919.

    [8] Ibid. 16th sitting.

    [9] Vahakn N. Dadrian, "The Documentation of the World War I Armenian Massacres in the Proceedings of the Turkish Military Tribunal," International Journal of Middle East Studies. Vol. 23, No. 4 (November 1991), p. 574, note 55; Arshavir Sheeragian, Gudagun Err Nahadegneroun (The Testament of the Martyrs). Beirut , 1965, pp. 262-263.

    [10] Jacob Künzler, Im Lande des Blutes und der Tränen. Erlebnisse in Mesopotamien Während des Weltkrieges “In the Land of Blood and Tears. Experiences in Mesopotamia During the World War”. Berlin-Potsdam, 1921, pp. 77, 87. In the new edition, edited by Hans- Lukas Kieser, Zurich , 1999, pp. 99, 108-109.

    [11] Haigashen Darekirk (Haigashen Annual). Vol. 1, 1922, p. 328. The names of four of the victims are listed in this source.

    [12] Austrian Foreign Ministry Archives. 12 Türkei/380, folio 909, May 26, 1917

    [13] Ahmet Altan “Soykirim... 1915 yilinda bir Ermeni olmak ister miydiniz?” Gazetem, 9 Mayis 2005, http://www.gazetem.net/ahmetaltan.asp.

    JTW, 10 November 2005
    "All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

    Comment


    • #12
      Coward Laciner ...Lol Bugs out!

      Armenian Letters 5: Dr. Laciner's Response
      Dr. Sedat Laciner
      Dear Maral, you argued in your previous letter that Armenians are not convinced by the Turkish argument, because they had witnessed the Ottoman abuse and Genocide first hand. Of course there are people who experienced that difficult times among the Armenians. However the second and third generation Armenians in the diaspora have never experienced the 1917 Events, they have never been to and almost all them have never met a Turkish man or woman. Ironically many Armenians who experienced the Ottoman rule spook Turkish language, most of them lived in their houses like a Turkish family. They missed , and when they met a Turkish abroad, they hugged their neighbors, and even some of them confessed that ‘some Armenians’ made great mistakes to the Ottoman State . It is ironic that the second and third generation Armenians’ hate is greater than the first generation Armenians', not because of the experiences or respect to their grandparents’ memories. The new generation Armenians created a monster called ‘Turk’. When an Armenian in or in the says ‘Turk’ or ‘Turkish’ he/she does not mean a name of a nation or a group of people. As a matter of fact that diaspora Armenians do not want to meet with a real Turkish, and they do not want to establish dialogue with the Turkish people. They do not want all, because confronting the real Turk would destroy all the Armenian identities in diaspora. What would left from an Armenian if he/she does not hate from the Turks. What unite the millions of Armenians in the diaspora except the hate against the ‘terrible Turk’.







      Wake up, wake up!...







      There is no ‘terrible Turk’…

      Turks are not the monsters you created. Turks and Armenians are the most similar peoples in the world. Both listen the same melodies, they eat almost the same food, both think in a similar way etc. If I do not say that ‘I am a Turk’ no Armenian could guess my race… We did not only share the same territories, but the same fate. The only difference between us is that you left these territories, but we stayed. We experienced the tragedy, we died, and we killed. You have forgotten that you killed, you just remember your pains. I understand both of them because I still live here. I can easily see the hate in your eyes, how you suffer in defining your Armenianness, why you hate etc. Turkish people passed all this process decades ago. We wanted to forget all the pains and hates. Otherwise the Turks were not able to establish a state, not able to survive. The Armenians in chose a different way, they preferred to remember and to maintain all the pains alive. They encouraged their youth to continue to kill. They declared war, and they started a terror campaign while Mustafa Kemal made all the possible efforts to establish friendly relations with the Greeks, Armenians and with all the neighbors in a short time after the great war. He knew that needed its neighbors to establish a common future. The First Armenian Republic was occupied and Armenians more suffered in the Russian rule. Thanks God, the collapsed and the Armenians established another independent Republic. But they still focused on the hate against the neighbors, they once more wanted more territories instead of more friends in the region.







      WRITING A NEW HISTORY








      All nations rewrite the world history. All nations blame the others and praise itself. However the real leaders and real intellectuals are aware of that the facts and written history are not the same. Great nations can confront with their pasts. They can criticize their past, and the real leaders and real intellectuals focus on future co-operations, not obsess with the past mistakes. The problem with the Armenian ‘nation’ is that the Armenians have no real leaders and brave-heart intellectuals. The Armenian ‘leaders’ always encouraged the hate between Turkish and Armenian people. They said “kill, take the revenge, put a bomb’ etc. They declared wars. I have never read a book or an article making self-critics about the Armenian past. There is no Armenian who questions the 1915 Events in a different way. If you are Armenian, you cannot think differently. This is strange for me, because Anatolia is a place of diversity and pluralism. One may find all the diverse ideas in Turkish academia, media and politics even in the Armenian issue. You post me the ‘pro-Armenian’ Turkish articles. I am aware of all them and it is very easy to find more radical papers everyday. No one could guess a Turk’s ideas on Armenian issue before discussing the matter. That’s the difference between a Turkish and an Armenian. So I have no representing all the Turkish people on this issue. Of course majority of the Turkish people think as I do, but even there are differences between these people too.



      is a place of diversity and pluralism. One may find all the diverse ideas in Turkish academia, media and politics even in the Armenian issue. You post me the ‘pro-Armenian’ Turkish articles. I am aware of all them and it is very easy to find more radical papers everyday. No one could guess a Turk’s ideas on Armenian issue before discussing the matter. That’s the difference between a Turkish and an Armenian. So I have no representing all the Turkish people on this issue. Of course majority of the Turkish people think as I do, but even there are differences between these people too.





      ***








      You remind me Turgut Ozal’s speech. Actually a very bad example. Turgut Ozal was the most brave-hearted Turkish leader. He even once said that “let’s recognise what the Armenians say. Both people should not lose time and energy because of a useless debate on the past”. He has no problems with the Armenians and he never accepted the Armenian allegations. His problem was with the current problems and he made enormous efforts to establish diplomatic and other connections with the young Armenian Republic . was one of the states who recognise the Armenian Republic . But when occupied the neighboring ’s territories and attacked the Nakhcivan region near Turkish borders Ozal had no choice. If Armenian can not accept Ozal and Tayyip Erdogan policies they have no chance in solving ‘Armenian Problem’, because the history will not see more pro-Armenian Turkish in future. And if you have problem with Ozal and Erdogan, it means that Armenians do not live in a real world.




      ***





      I do agree with Mr. Saydali. “He who lives by the sword, must be prepared to die by the sword.” If you attack a nation, they would attack you too. This is a basic rule of the world. If Armenians attacked the , Washington would do more than the done so far. Look at the case. What did? Armenians have undermined the Turkish interests for the decades. The Armenian lobby in the and Western Europe has joined all anti-Turkish blocks. They supported the PKK terrorism, they made co-operation with the anti-Turkish Greek campaigns etc. has seen the Armenians almost in all anti-Turkish campaigns and policies (not only in the Armenian issues). And Armenian terrorism massacred the distinguished Turkish diplomats. None of them had any connection with the Armenian issue. Even some of the Turkish diplomats killed by the Armenians had no idea about the Armenians. The terrorists also killed their wife and children. If the diplomats were not the Turkish but Americans, I am sure that the Washington would have used ‘sword’. And now, Azerbaijani territories have been under the Armenian occupation. Remember Hocali, do not just remember the 1915. It was just a decade ago, not almost a century ago. If Armenian occupy neighboring countries, if they threaten their neighbors, they can never expect friendly responses. Mr. Saydali reminds Inonu, Sakarya, Izmir and . In Inonu, Sakarya and Izmir clashes Turkish people defended their independence. Greeks occupied the Western Anatolia and they were forced to leave. In , did not occupy the whole of the island but saved the Turkish Cypriots. No one has been injured since the Peace Operation of 1974 in . You blame Mr. Saydali’s understanding and you imply that the real source of the ‘monster Turk’ image is the Turkish threats. If it was so, Americans would be the monster not the Turks. has never occupied any country in 20th century. has never declared war against any nation during the Republican era (except the Cyprus Peace Operation and United Nations operations). has never threatened the Armenians. has never attacked the Armenians. On the other hand Armenians massacred Turkish diplomats and other Turkish representatives. Armenians attacked number of Turkish companies and embassies. Armenians have threatened the Turkish people. Armenians are talking about ‘occupying the Eastern Turkey territories’, Armenians accuse the Turkish people of coming the most terrible crime: genocide. does not recognise ’s and ’s national borders. And you could speak about so-called ‘Turkish threats’ against the Armenians. I think Armenians should look at the mirror. ‘Armenian genocide allegations’ are considered an insult by the Turkish people. Turkish people perceive the accusations as a matter of honor. and Turkish people do not threaten the Armenian people or . Turkish Prime Minister invites Armenian President to , he offers to establish a joint commission, he and many other Turkish politicians offer dialogue. does not speak about the war or conflict. has made enormous effort to stop Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict. But at the same time it should be noted that if one attacks the others, he/she may find attacks. If one wants friendly relations, he/she should be a real friend.








      By the way, it is really difficult to me why the Armenians are so sensitive on Turkey-Greek relations but show a great indifference on Occupied Azerbaijani territories and massacred Turkish diplomats. Armenians now say nothing about Armenian terrorism.





      NEEDED ENEMY





      Armenians in the diaspora needed to create enemy to unite the Armenians in the , , Europe and other countries. You say that “The Armenians who survived in the past 5000 years do not need a common enemy for their solidarity.” Please remember Armenians did not live in the , and Western Europe for 5.000 years. And when they first came to US for instance, they were not a part of a strong nation. Even they could not communicate by Armenian language. Some Armenians were speaking Russian, some other Turkish, and some of them were speaking Arabic. The strong American or European cultures and languages was an open threat to the Armenian culture. Not the Armenian tragedy but the ‘Armenian Genocide Legend’ was created by the political and religious institutions to save the Armenian identity in the ‘new world’. The Armenians created a world based on hate against the ‘Turkish monster’. There was no Turk in the North America , and lack of Turkish opposition made creating a past easier. Now the Turks oppose the Armenian claims. And the Armenian Diaspora perceives the Turkish opposition as matter of insult. Because they created a ‘religion’ and they cannot make any discussion on the matter. Because even discussing the matter is considered a sin by the Armenian Genocide ‘Faith’. Armenians in Diaspora sees the Armenian issue as a matter faith, not a matter of politics or history.








      It is true it was a common experience shared by the “Survivors” and their offspring.






      MASSACRE AND GENOCIDE








      Armenians resist to understand that and Turkish people have no problem in accepting the Armenian tragedy and massacres in the past. Yes, it is a fact, many Armenians were killed or massacred by the Kurdish or Turkish individuals or groups as the Armenians killed or massacred them. The matter is that these events cannot be named as ‘genocide’. Genocide is a legal term and all kind of killings cannot be genocide. If so, there are many genocides against the Turkish nation in history. Turkish people do not deny a ‘genocide’ but they deny the ‘Armenian allegations’. And there is no universally accepted ‘Armenian genocide’. Armenian political groups manipulate the domestic politics of the Western countries. The French Parliament accepted the Armenian allegations in session which very small group attended. The Armenian diaspora makes impact on the French media and the Armenian French journalist write the anti-Turkish articles in the French papers. and the Turkish people in the West did not give response to the Armenian lobbying activities in the past. However now the situation has changed. The Turkish diaspora is now stronger and oppose the Armenian ideas. The problem is that the Armenians just accuse the Turks of being denier instead of establishing a real dialogue.

      ENVER AND CEMAL PASHAS








      Personally I do not agree with the Ittihad’s policies. Cemal, Enver and his friends were so utopian and romantic. They caused the collapse of the Ottoman State . They made great mistakes, yet I know that they did not make genocide, because they were Turkish. I agree with you, needs to question its past, ant it tries its best. There is no one voice in . Diversity on historical matters is beyond what you can expect from Turks. The problem is that the Armenians show no effort. They just blame and accuse. That’s why the Armenians are like a one single block in this issue.





      NOTHING LEGITIMATES INSULTS

      In your letter you try to legitimate the Armenian insults to me and to the Turkish people. This is not a right and nice way. Nothing legitimates insults. Insult is not an ethical problem, but also a legal problem. You cannot insult anybody. I do not insult anyone. I do not force anyone to think like me. You can believe in ‘genocide stories’, you can blame me. Free world. All are your choices. But, you have to accept that we have freedom of speech too. And when you accuse me of committing the most horrible crime in the world, I have all the rights to defend myself without insulting anyone. And I do not accept your accuses. Even if your parents were experienced a real tragedy in Anatolian territories, and even if my parents killed your parents, you have no right to insult me. There are local and international courts, is member of Council of Europe and recognized all the individual rights to apply European courts. The local Turkish courts are also open to the Armenians and others. You may apply to American or any other courts. And imagine, can I insult you because of that you and the majority of the Armenian people do not condemn the Armenian terrorism during the 1970s and 1980s and the current Armenian Occupation in . Many Turkish diplomats were massacred by the Armenian terrorists and most of them were declared ‘hero’ by the Armenian State and community. Do I have the right to insult you? I can just criticize your attitude. I strongly condemn the Armenian community for terrorism, yet I cannot insult, and I do not insult. Supporting terrorism is a grave mistake and I see no difference between ASALA and Usame Bin Laden men. And the latest genocide in the recent years was Hocali Genocide. The innocent civilians were genocided in by the Armenian Armies and the Western media, including The Economist, the NYT and many others, pictured and documented the genocide. The Armenians are now silent. They say nothing about the Hocali Genocide, yet they can remember the events happened almost a century ago.








      You can make terrorism, you may kill innocent diplomats, you may massacre families of Turkish diplomats, Tashnaks have all the right to kill the high-ranked Ottoman statesmen in the name ‘revenge’, you can insult me, you can fire American and Turkish professors’ houses because they do not agree with you, you can make genocide in Hocali, you do not have to remember 520.000 Turkish and Kurdish civilians killed by the armed Armenians during the First World War, you have all the rights to occupy almost 20 percent of your neighbor Azerbaijan, you can claim territories from Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia, you have all the right not to recognise international borders, you can make anti-Turkish lobbying in the US and elsewhere, you have the right to undermine all the Turkish interests abroad, you can make films showing Turkish people barbarians etc., but we can do nothing. We, the poor Turks, have to be silence. We have no rights to question what you argue. We have to accept what you say. You can kill us, you can blame us, but we cannot give any response. Otherwise you call us ‘denier’.





      HRANT DINK





      You remind me the Hrant Dink case. He was given a six-month suspended sentence. But I am sure that Dink will remain in and will never go to to live because he knows that is more democratic and he can defend what he thinks in . It is true we still have problems in implementation of the new laws, yet shows a real progress while the Armenians are still there. The courts verdict was not shared by the Turkish media and majority of the Turkish people, including Prime Minister and by many Cabinet members. If Dink was in , he could not speak anything about the Armenian issue.

      ARMENIAN CHURCHES








      You argue that only 6 Armenian churches left in , and only one of them is functioning in the eastern . First of all you call eastern Turkish provinces ‘Armenian vilayets’ and ‘Ermenistan’ (). This is not a friendly approach. If you say Turkish provinces , one day Turkish people may say that “there is no and Armenian Republic is not a legitimate state.” There is no end in such aggressive and provocative debates. is , and is . There are many churches in the Eastern region of , particularly in the Mardin province. I don’t know the real figure but Armenians can find a church to pray in every main cities. The problem is that the number of Armenians is very small and they cannot finance a church or a school in this region. The obstacle is not the law or the governmental restrictions. If a Turkish Armenian wants to establish a church there is no restriction. Americans, Europeans and even Korean missionaries now establish their own churches even at the heart of , in Ankara . Missionary activities right now in is very high. I mean the Armenian population in the mentioned region is not enough to establish churches. In Istanbul there are about 100,000 Armenians. They have many schools and churches. We met with the Patrick Mesrop II last year and he complained about the Istanbul Armenians. They do not send their children to the Armenian schools and the voluntary assimilation is at the level of real risk. The mixed marriage in particular threatens the existence of Armenian people in .








      You claim there are just 6 churches in Istanbul . However the Armenian Church does not confirms you. If you visit http://www.hyetert.com/rehber.asp site you will see that someone deceives you. The list of the Armenian Churches under the Istanbul Armenian Patriarchate rule:




      İstanbul Ermeni Patrikliğine Bağlı Kiliseler (Armenian Churches in Istanbul)

      Gavur Note:I wont make the same "Mistake" as this two bit swindler and "The list' of what Turkish goverment could not get rid of in Istanbul being in Europe.
      "All truth passes through three stages:
      First, it is ridiculed;
      Second, it is violently opposed; and
      Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

      Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

      Comment


      • #13
        Punk ass Leciner-You lost the debate by running away

        Cont..Laciner
        Do you still think that all Turkey Armenians vanished?

        I will continue to my response in a separate letter, because your letter’s size is beyond a normal letter. I do not want to lose the focus of the debate.

        JTW, 10 November 2005




        Gavur note:You notice he couldn't answer all the points Maral made and he takes so much space "replying".And then he has the gull of blaming it on her

        In the west thats called rope-a-dope ,but he's no Ali,even better Maral;s no Foreman.
        "All truth passes through three stages:
        First, it is ridiculed;
        Second, it is violently opposed; and
        Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

        Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

        Comment


        • #14
          "Personally I do not agree with the Ittihad’s policies. Cemal, Enver and his friends were so utopian and romantic. They caused the collapse of the Ottoman State . They made great mistakes, yet I know that they did not make genocide, because they were Turkish."

          Of course this explains everything...couldn't have happened..because they were Turkish...no, certainly not.

          Gavur - thenks for these posts. The ones concerning the rapes and killing of so many children inflame me to no end - when Turks deny these things occured. I do hope that our Turkish visitors here do in fact read such posts and ponder a bit...perhaps they will find it in their hearts to feel.

          Comment


          • #15
            I do not think that Turks and Turkish state denies these events.

            You do not even need to be a Historian or an eye witness in order to concieve the plight of Armenians of 1910s.

            I do not want to go into these kind of debates, I think they are fruitless and pointless. But I can just briefly say that what is not recognized is the plight of Turks, Kurds, Cherkez, Ahiska Turks caused by Russians and Armenians before 1915. If Armenians are really interested in the human-tragedy side of these events, they should also have at least a little interest in what actually ordinary Turk and Muslim experienced in 1914/15 in Eastern Anatolia.

            I think it is time to Armenians at least question the policies of Armenian Rebel Leaders like Andranik Ozanyan Pasha. I know Armenians always say Caucusian Armenians should be distinguished from Anatolian Armenians. But ANdranik himself is of Erzurum/Eastern Anatolian origin, and provoked Armenians to revolt, when he was not totally successful, he seeked the Russian support and actually Antranik became a Russian General and his men became Russian soldiers. Antranik fought against Ottoman armies on the side of Russian during the Balkan war in Edirne and Bulgaria in 1912 and 1913. His men mercilessly killed defensless Turkish and Pomak villiagers during Balkan war, when the war erupted in 1914 he went to Caucusia to invade Ottoman Army and organize chetes among Armenian villagers in Anatolia and wage a guerilla war against Ottoman army in Eastern Anatolia.

            I think it is time to question irresponsible policies people like Antranik to use ordinary Armenians for his aims.

            Originally posted by 1.5 million
            "Personally I do not agree with the Ittihad’s policies. Cemal, Enver and his friends were so utopian and romantic. They caused the collapse of the Ottoman State . They made great mistakes, yet I know that they did not make genocide, because they were Turkish."

            Of course this explains everything...couldn't have happened..because they were Turkish...no, certainly not.

            Gavur - thenks for these posts. The ones concerning the rapes and killing of so many children inflame me to no end - when Turks deny these things occured. I do hope that our Turkish visitors here do in fact read such posts and ponder a bit...perhaps they will find it in their hearts to feel.

            Comment


            • #16
              Originally posted by TurQ
              I do not think that Turks and Turkish state denies these events.

              You do not even need to be a Historian or an eye witness in order to concieve the plight of Armenians of 1910s.

              I do not want to go into these kind of debates, I think they are fruitless and pointless. But I can just briefly say that what is not recognized is the plight of Turks, Kurds, Cherkez, Ahiska Turks caused by Russians and Armenians before 1915. If Armenians are really interested in the human-tragedy side of these events, they should also have at least a little interest in what actually ordinary Turk and Muslim experienced in 1914/15 in Eastern Anatolia.

              I think it is time to Armenians at least question the policies of Armenian Rebel Leaders like Andranik Ozanyan Pasha. I know Armenians always say Caucusian Armenians should be distinguished from Anatolian Armenians. But ANdranik himself is of Erzurum/Eastern Anatolian origin, and provoked Armenians to revolt, when he was not totally successful, he seeked the Russian support and actually Antranik became a Russian General and his men became Russian soldiers. Antranik fought against Ottoman armies on the side of Russian during the Balkan war in Edirne and Bulgaria in 1912 and 1913. His men mercilessly killed defensless Turkish and Pomak villiagers during Balkan war, when the war erupted in 1914 he went to Caucusia to invade Ottoman Army and organize chetes among Armenian villagers in Anatolia and wage a guerilla war against Ottoman army in Eastern Anatolia.

              I think it is time to question irresponsible policies people like Antranik to use ordinary Armenians for his aims.

              Ok then the Ottoman Army should have gone and fought a war with Andranik and his troops... NOT slaughtered masses of innocent men, women, and children... This is NO excuse for Genocide.

              Comment


              • #17
                I think we can also say that " Of course this explains They were Turkish nothing had happened to them in early 20th century".

                As Turks and Muslims erased by Russians from the Balkans and Caucusia since 1890s, and the demographics of those regions are changed how can we expect the demographics of Anatolia to remain the same as teh Russians were trying to the same(and in WW-I French+Brits were also in the scene)?

                I am not justifying anything here, as we are talking about human lives here. But I believe that when hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Turks were being either massacred or forced to immigrate to Anatolia from Caucusia and Balkans, it should be expected that Christians of Anatolia(Mostly Orthodox) to be effected negatively by these policies as Russians were trying to implement same in Anatolia.


                I think it is time for us to be brave like Hrant Dink to point our fingers to Emperial powers of that time who mercilessly destroyed ethnic relations in Balkans,Caucusia and finally in Anatolia. Today be it Turks or Armenians they are not brave enough to point their fingers to those countries.
                For Turks WW-I is over and they put everything back and they dont want to further antagonize Western countries like France and Britain. They dont want to open old books with them and question them. And Armenians still see Russia as their security partner and can not question them and see France their protecter and can not ask them to admit their failures.

                Actually I think it is the time for both Turks and Armenians to have direct dialogue and direct relations with each other instead of using third/fourth parties and forcing preconditions.

                We are quick to catch each other's mistake but very very very slow to see our own mistakes

                Originally posted by 1.5 million
                Of course this explains everything...couldn't have happened..because they were Turkish...no, certainly not.

                Gavur - thenks for these posts. The ones concerning the rapes and killing of so many children inflame me to no end - when Turks deny these things occured. I do hope that our Turkish visitors here do in fact read such posts and ponder a bit...perhaps they will find it in their hearts to feel.

                Comment


                • #18
                  You are right Hovik

                  I do not want to quarell with you, but my point was at least people like Antranik should be critisized by Armenians today. We are talking about even early 1900s even before 1910s, his aim to organize Chetes in Eastern Anatolia and destablize the region for the invading Russians in 1914. People like him who pushed ordinary Armenians to the front line should also deserve some blame in my opinion
                  I dont want to quarell which word to use or not, human suffering is important those responsible should be questioned in the first hand.

                  Yes it is correct when he first organized rebellions in Mush(I think it was 1908), the local Armenians showed little support for him, he later understood that he can not achieve his aims by using the local Armenians and sought Russian help. For example he forced Armenian villagers to register to Russian Orthodox Church, propminet Armenians who opposed him were killed because they were *traitors* and *collaborators*. The ittihadits guilt is not to recognize the difference between the ordinary Armenian and the rebels. Ittihadist did exatly what the rebels want them to do. Harm the ordinary Armenians so that they(the armenians) should finally understand, the rebels were *right*.

                  As I said I am not into this kind of quarells between Turks and Armenians. They wont go anytwhere, they are fruitless and time wasting to both sides.

                  Originally posted by Hovik
                  Ok then the Ottoman Army should have gone and fought a war with Andranik and his troops... NOT slaughtered masses of innocent men, women, and children... This is NO excuse for Genocide.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    bullxxxx! This is another way of deflecting blame from the Turkish perpetrators of the Genocide of Armenians. Suffering of Turks who were expelled from the Balkans as ethnic groups freed themselves of the oppresive ottoman Turkish yoke or even Turkics who were driven out of Crimea and or the Caucuses is only tangentally related to the Armenian Genocide (which is what this forum is about and the issue at stake here) - and is basically useful to understand how some of the (irrational? and possibly otherwise) hatred against Christians built up. Are these events worth being studied in their own right - certainly - but not as an excuse to justify the Armenian Genocide. And whatever hurts Russians were putting on various Turkics/Muslims of the Caucuses - the fact that Armenians fleeing Ottoman and Kurdish oppression in Anatolia were welcomed by them to settle there has little to do with the Ottoman opression that already was occuring (and had been for hundreds of years) and that resulted in the total Genocide of Armenians in Anatolia. And when Turks boo hoo hoo the machinations of Imperlialists powers during this period - they need to understand that the Ottoman Empire was such an Imperiliast power and one that had been conducting fiendish machinations against indigeonous peole in the region for far longer then any of these newcopmer Empires.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Some other points: For all the Muslims driven from various (formerly Ottoman) places in the 19th century - for the most part we still see plenty of Muslims inhabiting these places. Secondly - again this idea of armed Armenian rebellion is vasatly overstated - particulary during the immediate pre-war period being used by the CUP/Turkish propogandists to justify their actions. In fact it was no direct fault of the Armenains in any way shape or form that sealed their fate. CUP and Turkish rage and impotency over the collapsing EMpire and feelings of wounded national (religeous-ethnic) pride after several generations of Christian ascendency in the Empire are much more to blame. Understand the dynamics instead of grasping at straws for excuses. And begin by giving a deserved apology to Armenians and humble yourself - versus continuing the arrogance and fanning the flames if you truly want to resolve anything.

                      Comment

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