Epitome of Denial

[TurQ]

THis debate goes nowhere, I let you learn -Editted by TurQ-by Yourself if you are interested.

-TurQ's opinion-
Russian interest started by Czar Petro in early 1700s. THey saw the seeds of hatred since then but they were able to convince the ORthodox subjects in early 1800s(1820s) to support Russian invasion. Favoring Muslim land owners was a solution to strengten Ottoman rule when the Russian interest started. It is proven that it was not the solution.

Petro even tried to force some ORthodox communities to immigrate to Russian controlled areas in early 1700s to prove that Russians have a lot to offer to them. It took them more than 100 years to convince that Ottoman rule is evil. Because they had their own land they were living better than those who live in Russia.
If you just knew little about Balkans and Balkanic societies you would know that it is impossible to rule them by force, Hungarians are the best example. When Ottomans were in their strongest period, they could hold those areas loosely(for about 120 years, as compared to 500 years in neighbouring Serbia), because vatican was consistently interveneing and provoking catholics. And I am telling you Serbs and Romanians are tougher nations compared to Hungarians.

TurQ - I'm sorry - but it is you who have this wrong. It makes no sense that the Ottomans would only allow Muslims to be landowners AFTER the Russians become interested in the place - I mean come now - if anything it would be the opposite - to try to appease people.

[Hovik]

THis debate goes nowhere, I let you learn if you are interested.

OH! You came here to TEACH US!!!

[TurQ]

You got me wrong.

I was saying this is not going anywhere, if 1.5 million wants(not you) to learn about Balkan history, I let him to learn by him/herself.

And Yes I am not into a battle of words. I am aware that Armenians would be skeptical of what a Turk says, I understand that; thats why I say if they are interested in what happaned during WW-I in Balkans and Caucusia, go and do their own research and learn by themselves.

OH! You came here to TEACH US!!!

[maral_m79]

You got me wrong.

I was saying this is not going anywhere, if 1.5 million wants(not you) to learn about Balkan history, I let him to learn by him/herself.

And Yes I am not into a battle of words. I am aware that Armenians would be skeptical of what a Turk says, I understand that; thats why I say if they are interested in what happaned during WW-I in Balkans and Caucusia, go and do their own research and learn by themselves.

Thanks for your effort, I guess that anyone want to learn more about the Ethnic Conflicts in the the Balkans, and it's relation to the Armneian Genocide, will gladly refer to the Brilliant Work of Vahakn Dadrian in the subject.

[Gavur]

Turk idiotlar 4-24-05

http://www.theforgotten.org/denial/

[Gavur]

Pm Erdogan To Challenge Armenia

At the annual session of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly in Dane capital of Copenhagen on November 15 Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan made a speech before 300 parliamentarians, NTV and Turkish press informed on November 16.

Participants asked Erdogan questions after his speech. A parliamentary inquired about relations with Armenia and about the Armenian Genocide. Here is what Erdogan answered: "We look to equivalent response to our positive approach. As soon as in the office, we opened airspace to Armenia. Yerevan-Istanbul flights launched during our rule. The second positive step concerns the church on Akhtamar Island in Van Lake. The government took up reconstruction of this run-down church that belongs to our Armenian citizens. Reconstruction was carried out by architects specially chosen by the Armenian Patriarch of Turkey.

"After the repair the church will be open both to our Armenian citizens and Armenians from abroad. The third step we took is of international character. We have opened our archives, now let Armenia and third states do the same. Let us engage specialists, political scientists, lawyers and historians in this work. Let them present the results for us to take corresponding steps.

"We are sure there never was a genocide in our history. It's a gross mistake to call "genocide" deportation of rebellious community organized right up to paying for their travel expense. Also wrong is to chide Turkey for delusions unrelated to the issue simply giving in to the lobbyist organizations. We have no doubt that this mistake will be corrected. Frankly speaking, it's time for challenges. Let them come to discuss, study and arrive at a conclusion together."

No matter how unacceptable PM Erdogan's approach is, we should agree that his challenge has a hue of an offer. Regardless motivations, it's a step forward for Turkey because all previous prime ministers not only were reluctant to hear anything about the Genocide but also accused Armenians of perpetuating genocide against Turks.

By Hakob Chakrian

http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2005111705

What an xxxxxxx this guy is
xxxx him and the donkey he rode in on.

[maral_m79]

I found it on some Jewish website.

Exact link http://www.sephardicstudies.org/aa3.html

[Gavur]

Turkish author writes on hatred in Turkish-Armenian relations

Hatred
By Ferhat Kentel
Thursday, February 10, 2005

http://www.gazetem.net/ferhatkentel.asp

Translated by the Zoryan Institute


I will describe an incident on Saturday, February 5, at a conference about the “Armenian Problem,” which took place at the Yapi Kredi Cultural Center, organized by the Helsinki Citizens’ Committee. The purpose of the conference was to find means to solve the “problem”, to make it normal, or to discuss it as civilized human beings. Historian Mete Tunçay and Fethiye Çetin, the author-lawyer whose biographical book My Grandmother was recently published, gave speeches.


Mete Tuncay explained the various theses, writings and meetings concerning Turkey and the Armenian Question in recent years. He spoke very calmly…and then he gave his personal opinion about the subject, which is as follows: While the Turkish Republic completely rejects the negative heritage of the Ottoman Empire, it adopts and owns the Ottoman’s stance in the Armenian Genocide issue, mainly because of the new republic founders’ gains of Armenians’ property and possessions, as well as their concern in preserving their new-found wealth. It is meaningless to debate whether a genocide took place or not, and equally meaningless for the parliaments of other countries to recognize the genocide, when neither Armenia nor Turkey are ready to discuss this subject.


Fethiye Çetin spoke about two different issues. First, she explained the continuing bias and discrimination against Armenians in the legal and education fields. Secondly, she expressed her feelings and Turkish Armenians’ feelings about the subject of her new book, her grandmother, who revealed just before she died that she was an Armenian rescued by a Turkish sergeant during the massacres. She also spoke very calmly…and she finished her remarks by expressing her hope that the ‘genocide’ discussions would be replaced by a bit of empathy for the Armenians’ sorrows.


Soon after Mete Tunçay began his speech, someone from the audience, who claimed to be an ‘historian’ and a member of Aydınlar Ocağı (“Society of Intellectuals”), interrupted Tunçay with remarks such as “you are wrong, it is not true.” Then, a second person, whose name we discovered afterwards to be Ramazan Bakkal began interrupting the speech. Mete Tunçay suggested that Bakkal should step forward and join the lines at the podium, but Bakkal preferred to sit in the audience and continue interrupting from there.


The tension in the conference hall began to increase. As the “corrections” and “warnings” of Bakkal became increasingly disruptive, the audience repeatedly requested Bakkal’s removal, so that they could follow the speakers. The Yapi Kredi security guards invited Bakkal to leave the hall and Bakkal started raging.


A brief background note. Apparently Bakkal is an “important person.” According to his own account, he is a former Turkish state radio producer, a founder of ASAM, a director of Turkish Public Community Committees and an editor of Strategic Analysis Magazine, that is, a rather “intellectual” person. That is why he felt he had the right to interrupt this conference. In addition, he has had another “heroic” incident recently. In December 2004, when EU Parliament’s President, Joseph Barrel, indicated his desire to meet Leyla Zana in Diyarbakir during a meeting organized by TOBB and IKV, Bakkal had similar actions and remarks, such as, “I will teach him a lesson that he deserves;” “I will not allow you to go to Diyarbakir;” “I will not allow division of Turkey.” Lots of swearing, pushing and shoving and being ejected by hotel security guards. (For more comments and two different interpretations of this incident, please visit www.bbp.org.tr, Funda Ozkan’s December 7, 2004 news item in the daily newspaper, Radikal: www.radikal.com.tr)


So Ramazan Bakkal is a professional and national “conference protester.” But perhaps due to the less professional conduct of the HYD conference security guards, Mr. Bakkal’s fists were more effective this time. As far as I could see, he managed to slap one woman in the audience, knock out another man trying to prevent him from attacking Tunçay, to hurl a large plastic sign at Tunçay, to hurl a bottle at a security guard. He gave an excellent performance…


Anyway, even though the security guards took him out of the conference room, he managed to come in again (escorted by a policeman somehow)…During the question period, he and another elderly person from the “Society of Intellectuals,” Aydınlar Ocağı, had long tirades with statements like, “The Turkish nation is the most tolerant and understanding people but beware not to wear out their patience,” or “if you betray us, we will do the same again” and they did their duty of “warning….”


Some urban and modern ladies among the audience also complained to the conference speakers by asking, “Why do you bring up these subjects? What will you achieve? Don’t talk about it anymore, let’s forget about the past.”


At the end, despite the violent and disrespectful persons, despite the professional conference protesters’ actions and the tension created, despite the people who would have preferred if this conference had never taken place (I wonder why they came if they did not what the conference), the conference ended with prolonged applause.


The incidents that took place at this conference, the “EU Minority Report,” which was torn up during a previous presentation, indicates an extraordinary fear and paranoia. Paranoia, fed by fear, is now feeding a hatred which is spreading fear everywhere. Paranoid persons are so full of violence…and they justify their violence by saying “We won’t allow this in our homeland!” As if being patriotic is only in their domain…


“Violence” is not only in conferences but also in literature, even in simple poems that have become monuments of hatred built with words and letters. For example, schoolbooks or supplementary educational books prepared by Turkish Science Academy and Historical Society are full of racist literature. There is a poetry book in the 1998 edition of the Turkish Literature Series published by the National Education Ministry. The book, titled On This Road, is authored by a poet named Yunus Zeyrek. Here is an excerpt:


“The world did not witness such dishonor,
The Armenian from the Stone Age,
You have no good traits, the pen gets broken.
From wherever you look, the Armenian snake.”



Another excerpt:


“Tell me, are you human, Armenian?”
You are even more base that the Muscovite
Your Armenian seeds from Mount Nemrut.”


It is easy to understand that children or youth reading these textbooks get influenced. But it is difficult to grasp this: how can a person be this full of hatred against a people who have lived in the same country, mixed with the same blood, almost becoming one? What is worse, this hatred is blinding all other realities. This hatred is also covering up other opportunistic dirt. For example, an incident at Isparta Süleyman Demiral University (www.hurriyetim.com.tr, 4.1.2005). An academic from the History Faculty, Ahmet Halaçoğlu, was alleged to sexually harass female students, as well as taking nude pictures of a female student and sending these photos to other faculty staff. When he was fired from the university, Halaçoğlu claimed he was framed.


The daily Hurriyet had the following news item related to this issue: “She was like a man.” That’s because the female student whose pictures were taken by Halaçoğlu walked and talked like a man and was unlikely to get involved with this…of course Hurriyet is more interested in the sensationalism of this news item.


The affair between this woman and the “photographer” and somehow “historian” does not interest us…but the method used by people in trouble, murderers or robbers is what is interesting…


Halaçoğlu’s former lawyer portrays him as a loyal follower of Ataturk, progressive, modern, but also a God-fearing man who prays five times daily. According to the lawyer, Halaçoğlu was framed in this scandal because his older brother has been working on the Armenian Question. His friends in Isparta also think that Halaçoğlu is a victim because of his brother’s book, which claims that there was no Armenian Genocide, but on the contrary, a genocide of Turks by the Armenians (a book published by Turkish Historic Society in preparation for a war of historic documents against Armenians.)


This incident shows that it is a good defensive mechanism to bring out nationalist ideologies and policies. Nobody can easily blame you if you hide behind these ideas; and you can continue to do your evil deeds and spread your hatred from your sheltered refuge. So, I keep wondering: Are we going to see the days when people in trouble will try to defend themselves by saying “I am democratic, I believe in human rights?”


But we are living in changing times. People who dared not talk until today have started speaking out, that is, what is deemed “normal” is finally becoming normal, and the ones who had prevented the talking are now going through a crisis. They cannot tolerate hearing others talk, expressing sorrow…In order not to hear them talk, they keep saying “First, look at what they did to us,” meaning the Armenians, Americans, Russians, Greeks, Christians, the missionaries, Kurds, Jews, that is, everyone except themselves…They keep screaming louder, increasing the dosage of hatred, violence…and unfortunately, the violence is not only in words….However, it is also becoming obvious that the only thing they have left in their hands is their violence…

http://www.zoryan.org/

[Gavur]

Turkish Denial of Armenian Genocide

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Turkish_Denial_of_Armenian_Genocide

[Gavur]

What Armenian genocide?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050520.html