a strange approach to genocide

[deeptrust]

Hello everybody,

I'm very new to this forum. When I met this site after being directed from google, I'm very interested with the topics mentioned here. And I wanted to register the forum.

I wanna ask something to you. In the rules part of the forum, one of the moderators says:

"We are issuing this final warning to EVERYONE in the forum: Denial of the Armenian Genocide is not only backwards, inhumane and racist, it is a crime. the Administration of AG.com will not hesitate to ban any user who denies the Armenian Genocide."

I'm anyone(from germany) who is in love with freedom of speech and thought but has no idea about armenian genocide. I believe the benefits of discussing everything. In this site do the moderators really decide to ban me or any other mixed-mind member about genocide?

Before being a member of this forum, I had a sympathy to armenians generally because of the genocide pain even if I don't have any knowledge about the history.

But I could not understand one point. If you don't let contrary ideas to be discussed freely, how can you be sure that you are right? Don't be afraid of thoughts, just try to refute them.

[Tongue]

deepturst, welcome to the forum.

I think the rules are very clear. If you are here to learn more about the genocide, you are more than welcome to stay. But if you are here to tell us there was no Armenian genocide, there was a "Turkish genocide" hahah yes... I just banned a member who made that statement, Armenians deserved what they got, etc. You will be banned.

But I could not understand one point. If you don't let contrary ideas to be discussed freely, how can you be sure that you are right? Don't be afraid of thoughts, just try to refute them.

6 months ago, I would wholehartedly agree with you. Today, I don't. We've had many Turkish members, our discussions with them got us nowhere. It's one thing to ask questions, but when they start posting lies (literally) about Armenians being guilty, or deserving what they got, etc. that's when it gets out of control. We can't allow that kind of mentality in this forum as a respect to all the people we lost in the genocide. Racism was the cause of the genocide, and reading what some Turkish members post in this forum, we can see that racism is still present in their mentality. Very unfortunate.


Also, as much as I try to understand the "contrary ideas", I can't. If someone really wants to learn about the genocide, there are hundreds of books out there for them to grab and read. No need to come to the forum and start insulting us.

[phantom]

Hello everybody,

I'm very new to this forum. When I met this site after being directed from google, I'm very interested with the topics mentioned here. And I wanted to register the forum.

I wanna ask something to you. In the rules part of the forum, one of the moderators says:

"We are issuing this final warning to EVERYONE in the forum: Denial of the Armenian Genocide is not only backwards, inhumane and racist, it is a crime. the Administration of AG.com will not hesitate to ban any user who denies the Armenian Genocide."

I'm anyone(from germany) who is in love with freedom of speech and thought but has no idea about armenian genocide. I believe the benefits of discussing everything. In this site do the moderators really decide to ban me or any other mixed-mind member about genocide?

Before being a member of this forum, I had a sympathy to armenians generally because of the genocide pain even if I don't have any knowledge about the history.

But I could not understand one point. If you don't let contrary ideas to be discussed freely, how can you be sure that you are right? Don't be afraid of thoughts, just try to refute them.

Isn't it a crime in Germany to deny that the Holocaust happened? Do you disagree with that law?

[Hovik]

But I could not understand one point. If you don't let contrary ideas to be discussed freely, how can you be sure that you are right? Don't be afraid of thoughts, just try to refute them.

Deeptrust, welcome to the forum. The Armenian Genocide is not an "idea". There can be no "contrary ideas" in factual information. PERIOD.

Furthermore, this forum was not created to debate wether the event happened. If there was any doubt in the site founders' minds as to the fact of the event occuring, I am sure it wouldn't have been created. The internet is a haven of freedom of speach. Anyone who chooses to try to debate wether the Armenian Genocide took place or not is free to establish their own forum for doing so, this is not the place. We are here to discuss the events, to learn about the events, and to gain some proactive dialogue. Many people here would agree that there are areas of debate with regard to the history of the Armenian Genocide, (and we are more than open to discussing those and trying to reach some sort of understanding together) but the Armenian Genocide itself as an event is not a subject of debate. Revisionism and Denial are not acceptable here.

I am sure your own WWI German Army Medic Armin Wegner and his photo collection of the horror that he witnessed first hand as the Armenian Genocide took place will be interesting for you to know more about.

Armin Wegner Info:
BIO
Photos
MUST SEE PHOTO PRESENTATION (select language, watch intro, select photo link top left corner, and select photographs in bottom right)

Regards.

[maral_m79]

Welcome in the forum deeptrust...

The only thing that make us so sure that the Armenian Genocide is an undeniable fact, is the fact that almost all of us, are the offspring of the Survivors, so as you see, it's not only an event happened in our National History, but it's more like a "Family History" to us.

We are not dectating or opposing contrary ideas, because, people who have these "contrary" ideas are either (1) ignorant about the historical facts or (2) making their living denying those facts. There is no Third type.

Therefore the denial the Armenian Genocide to us (Armenians) considered to be an "Offense", to each one of us personally, and to the memory of our victim family members.

I welcome you again, and you'll see that we are friendly people when someone ask us to learn something, or want to get a clear picture about an issue.

How you put your words, is the key issue, my friend, not the question that you ask.


Enjoy Your Staying....

[cosmos]

Two Questions

After reading the discussions, I have two questions now, for moderators. But before ask them, I’d like to emphasize that I’m not a denier. Though, however, it’s so, I am distinguished in some ways from accepters of genocide. The questions come from these differences. Maybe due to being a Turkish citizen or my knowledge, my attitude for the genocide, of course, differs from Armenians whose ancestors and families were subjected to this horrible nightmare. So I don’t see the event with being emotional as much as them. But I understand their feelings, at least trying it. Moreover, anyone who comes to this site therefore must talk gently and try to understand them.

When I look at the results of 1915 occurences, it seems as genocide. In those years, a nation was being thrown away from their homes and exiled to the deserts, many or most of them were dying or being killed.

However, if we go to the beginning (to 1890s), we see that during the fast collapsing of Ottoman Empire, (especially after defeating of the Balkan Wars), there seems a movement among Ottoman Armenians for seperation. While collapsing of the Empire, like everyone, Armenians couldn’t know what would happen to them after vanishing of it at those times of indefiniteness. And they rightfully wanted to establish their own state and normally didn’t want to live with Turks. (we know it from documents and I personally don’t see it as treachery). Demanding a free state of Armenians was accepted a second problem of the Empire by Ittihat and Terakki Party (Unity and Development Party). This was unacceptable for them because I do surely believe in that they never saw the Armenians as a different nation from Turks. No one can reject that Armenians, as a Christian nation, have been closest to the Muslims on the World. Some claim that Ottomans every time applied bad treatments to Armenians all along their history, is a distortion of the realities and nothing else.

I repeated it a few times on the forum that Racism is a particuliar feature of Westerner civilisations only. That is to say there have been no Racist opinions, organizations and treatments in Easterner civilisation. (I stated it before, why it is so). Therefore saying that Atmenian Genocide includes a Racist reason, is the second distortion.

And there is no clear evidence about the planned killing of Armenians. It is clear that deportation was planned. This is third distortion. And during deportation it is not exactly known how many Armenians died and killed. How many Armenians survived. Also there is no document how many Armenians lived in The Empire in those years.

As you easily guess that there were no railroad in East sides of Ankara in 1915. Therefore, Armenians was to be gone on foot or with Donkeys etc. And providing supplies was a difficult thing for the poor Ottoman Government. So many Armenians must be gone to the dead by the environmental circumstances. In addition, The Ittihat and Terakki Party Leaders (not forgetting that they were dreamer and adventurer), they were not aware of what is genocide. If they knew, they would not probably do it. (And not forget their adviser like Germans).

Eventually, I ought to say that:

1-In terms of its begining, no historian has the ability of proving it, as a racist, planned genocide. So it seems rather bad treatment than genocide.

2-But, in terms of its results it seems as genocide.

And the Questions are: Someone who thinks in such way, is he/she a denier? (Am I denier?) If I am a denier, am I going to be banned? (By the way I have stated my opinions about the event).

And these are my strange approach to event.

[Gavur]

First off let me thank you cosmos for being a very thoughtfull member of this Forum.

Hov.. almost said Hovig ,However your question's puzzle me..

With a wealth of information on the web and you cannot discern the truth from propoganda.I personnaly grew up listening A story from my granmother as a kid she told me her life and it became my secret because it wasn't discussed not even with other family members it made me feel i was different then Turks which was confirmed several times by the Turks in my first 12 years by discriminations and name calling,but still i thought it was only me and that mentality of thinking I had unique circumstances and no one else.That stayed with me most of my life kind of like victims syndrom i inhared it from my beloved grandma i was resigned to the fact that the past was the past and no sympathy or justice can be expected.But recently i had a strong urge to express my feeling's in this issue seeing all the young generations of Armenians take up this issue mostly 3rd or 4th generation ,I felt guilty not speaking of this grave stain on humanity even thought i was closer to it then a lot of them.
Why can't Turks distance themselves from what young Turks carryed out
I know why "Fear" fear of speaking out in a country the very existence of the country depends heavily on one line of thought The sick Kemalist idea of being one type of Turk Nationalist that put blinders on Turkey for all this time .I tell you this The Genocide is in the Armenians national psyche and it got handed down from generation to generation orally in a personal way no matter what you rewrite in history you cannot rewrite whats there because its living through us our ancestors are living until therews justice and you are free from your blinders which is killing you .I mean Turkey is refusing to take the blinders of her people unless the scenery is to their liking if it wasn't so sad it would be comical.But dear cosmo you are peeking through those blinders like many others I hope some day you can completely take them off without any "Fear".Being in Diaspora gives all of us freedom from fear with freedom comes responsibility ,both Turks and Armenians are we going to be content by just keeping that freedom as a ornament or are we going to use it to reclaim our humanity the true freedom.

[maral_m79]

Cosmos,

Thank you for raising these few points, and as you might have noticed , I'm not any one of the moderator, I am a new member here, but if you don't mind, I had some comments on what you've said.

However, if we go to the beginning (to 1890s), we see that during the fast collapsing of Ottoman Empire, (especially after defeating of the Balkan Wars), there seems a movement among Ottoman Armenians for seperation. While collapsing of the Empire, like everyone, Armenians couldn’t know what would happen to them after vanishing of it at those times of indefiniteness. And they rightfully wanted to establish their own state and normally didn’t want to live with Turks. (we know it from documents and I personally don’t see it as treachery). .

I'm afraid that I would have to disagree with you, because it is well known fact that Armenians had defined their demands in the Berlin Treaty 1878 as "reforms" not "autonomy" or "indepence", which by the way something they had all the right to demand. And in the article 61 of the Treaty, the Ottoman Empire and the Sultan accepted and "commited" to apply the specified "Reforms" in the "Armenian Villayets" not only to improve the life of Armenians, but rather to all the population of those Villayets,which something that never took place really.

Demanding a free state of Armenians was accepted a second problem of the Empire by Ittihat and Terakki Party (Unity and Development Party). This was unacceptable for them because I do surely believe in that they never saw the Armenians as a different nation from Turks. No one can reject that Armenians, as a Christian nation, have been closest to the Muslims on the World. Some claim that Ottomans every time applied bad treatments to Armenians all along their history, is a distortion of the realities and nothing else.

I don't know on what basis you argue that the "bad treatment" of Armenians is a distortion, but let me tell you that there are "Tons" of Official documentations that "describe" the bad treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.

Even if one leave the forced Turkification attempts that were going on through out the whole 500 years of the Ottoman Empire, not only applied to Armenians, but to other nations too, the mistreatment was obvious to the whole world.

For years Armenians were not only mistreated, but "Massacred", specially during the rule of Abdul Hamid II (1876-1909) , 300,000 Armenians were massacred between 1894-1896.

Then after their revolution, which was supported widely by Armenians, the Leaders of Ittihat Ve Terakki (Committee of Union And Progress "CUP") , perpetrated another massacre, which was the Adana massacre 1909.

Impunity of the prepetrators of all those massacres, had a great impact on the mentality of the CUP leaders, they thought that no one will "judge" them , or demand justice , which is "ironically" pretty much what had happened. And to date, Armenians are still struggling to get Justice.

I repeated it a few times on the forum that Racism is a particuliar feature of Westerner civilisations only. That is to say there have been no Racist opinions, organizations and treatments in Easterner civilisation. (I stated it before, why it is so). Therefore saying that Atmenian Genocide includes a Racist reason, is the second distortion.

Although Gavur had shared his personal experience here for the "Discrimination" in Turkey, something that still going on untill today, but I have to disagree with you here too. The Young Turks, had brought "New" slogans with their rule, "Turkey For Turks" and "Arab Khaien, Ermen Gavur" were the new "Brands" that they have adopted. If you add to all that, the size of the Armenians' personal "Welths", specially in a time that the CUP reckless leaders had doubled the Ottoman Debt in the few years that they ruled, every extra "Lera" counts, to get rid of the control of the doner countries .

They sense of discrimination is "Still" present in Turkey until this very day, even among Turks themselves . Cüneyt Ülsever in Turkish Daily News, said "I have started to get really annoyed with certain individuals discriminating and belittling others because they are a “minority,” while at the same time knowing everyone in Turkey is part of a minority. We tend to forget the fact that, in one way or another, we are all part of a minority." http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/a...?enewsid=25540

And there is no clear evidence about the planned killing of Armenians.

Excuse me, that's not true, you need to take a look at the testemonies of the Turks in their personal accounts, for example PrinceAbdul Mecid, the heir apparent to the Ottoman Throne, said during an interview: "I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever disgraced our nation and race. They were entirely the work of Talat and Enver. I heard some days before they began that they were intended. I went to Istanbul and insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true and they intended to recommence the massacres that had been our shame and disgrace under Abdul Hamid. The only reply I could get from his was: 'It is decided. It is the program.'"

And a lot of other "Official Archival Documents" from the archives of many countries including the Ottoman allies in WWI , Germany and Austro-Hungary that confirm these facts.

It is clear that deportation was planned...... And during deportation it is not exactly known how many Armenians died and killed. How many Armenians survived. Also there is no document how many Armenians lived in The Empire in those years.

Again "not true", many documents, including the Ottoman Official archives had estimated both Armenian population in the Empire, and the number of Armenian victims. for more info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman...ian_Population

As you easily guess that there were no railroad in East sides of Ankara in 1915. Therefore, Armenians was to be gone on foot or with Donkeys etc. And providing supplies was a difficult thing for the poor Ottoman Government. So many Armenians must be gone to the dead by the environmental circumstances.

And do you think that the CUP government was not aware of that ?!
They sent a whole population into the desert, without enough food, medication or care, people of all ages had to march for months. Isn't that in your opinion a premeditated destruction of a race in whole or in part ?!

My friend the "deportation" alone can be considered "Genocide", mind you that the definition of Genocide, didn't make "killing" a condition in marking a crime of genocide.

In addition, The Ittihat and Terakki Party Leaders (not forgetting that they were dreamer and adventurer), they were not aware of what is genocide. If they knew, they would not probably do it. (And not forget their adviser like Germans).

They were adventurers maybe, but they were not "Idiots" , CUP leaders and most of the perpetrator of the Armenian Genocide, had high degrees of education, in the finest Ottoman schools like the Harbya School(Millitary School) and the Tebya School (Medical School), and a lot of them had studied in European Schools. They knew very well that what they were doing was a crime, but they thought that they'll get away with it.

And the Questions are: Someone who thinks in such way, is he/she a denier? (Am I denier?) If I am a denier, am I going to be banned? (By the way I have stated my opinions about the event).

I personally don't think that you are a denialistI have to classify , I would rather say, a revisionist, or just someone who don't know enough fact about the issue and caught in between two extremes, trying to find a sort of compromise . But the fact is, there is "No" possibile compromise, either the Turkish Government is lying , or the Armenians and other countries official archives are lying.

[cosmos]

Thank you Gavur and Maral m79 for your replies. I've read your posts and will consider on them. If I have questions or comments they'll be posted later.

[cosmos]

For not being misunderstood, I'd like to make clear that yes it was quite genocide. Yes, as Maral said taking the people out of their home and deporting them enough for committing a genocide. The point that I am trying to understand, (you may find this curiosity foolish) did those jerks (Talat, Cemal and Enver) know what they were doing.