Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

[bell-the-cat]

this show that took place in Ashkale, Erzurum, a city which is a nationalistic 'stronghold'?

What is it about Ashkale that makes it so? AllI know about it is that it is an ugly one-street town with a train station, huge concrete factory, and massive limestone quarry.

In 1941 Ashkale was also the location of the prison/concentration camp of those held as a result of the oppressive tax law. Was it chosen for some other reason rather than its remoteness?

[hitite]

Actually, Strabo is on the money. The British, French and even Italians at certain points in the last few centuries kept the OE afloat as a counterweight to the Russians and of course for their own interests. Hence some of the later resentment of Europeans by the time of Abdul Hamids rule. The Crimean War was essentially fought to protect the OE from Russia and the Treaty of Berlin/ Congress of Berlin further safeguarded the OE after its defeat by Russia. Later and on the eve of WWI, Austro-Hungary and Germany would be the OE's primary benefactor much to the chagrin of Britain and France of course.

OE was part of the world and especially European balance of power for centuries. The Ottomans aided the French and English many times with their internal struggles and with conflicts between them. Starting from 1700 when Russia got a base on the black sea (Fortress of Azak) via the Treaty of Istanbul a lot of Russian expansion was at the expense of the OE so naturally it met English, French, Austro-Hungarian intervention who all wanted a piece of the pie. Constantly shifting alliances may have kept the Ottomans afloat for a certain while but led to its eventual demise. The Anatolian revolutionaries would not have given bulls crap about previous historical alliances when English, French, Russians and Italians stepped on what was by then the Turkish heartland. Thats why they were 'kicked' out. They killed and plundered Turks and thats why no 'gratitude' is shown to them on liberation days because they did not help Turks in our war of independence, they were our enemy.

[phantom]

That whole incident is one sad event. It met a lot of criticism in Turkey too beacuse there shouldn't have been scenes of voilence in front of children. No argument about the accuracy of course. Armenian reaction to this is understandable but I dont think I tried to make it seem like it was a birthday party at McDonalds.

Apparently, this play has been going on for 20 years. Of course, it is bad to show such graffic scenes of violence to children. But more than that, this whole display is wrong on so many levels.

You have complained many times that Armenians teach hatred, yet you can't muster enough humanity to condemn this play for all that it is, a hateful, despicable, barbaric display of inhumanity.

[Joseph]

Interesting Editorial

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=98289

Why our beloved country is such a troubled land

Friday, March 7, 2008


Is there another country in the world that has icy diplomatic relations with an oceans-away country due to incidents a century ago that has nothing to do with the two of them

Burak BEKDİL
Imagine a country which is at loggerheads with most of its neighbors, has historical hostilities with several nations in or outside its vicinity, is not the most-liked nation in the world, is not wanted by the bloc it strategically wishes to join, is explosively divided in itself along ideological, religious, sectarian and ethnic lines, is poor and corrupt; all in one! Sounds too demonic of a terrain? Welcome to Turkey!Cyprus remains divided four decades after ethnic clashes between its Greek and Turkish inhabitants, and 34 years after Turkey entered its northern third in response to a Greek Cypriot coup that aimed at union with Greece, the failed enosis. Territorial disputes over the most beautiful sea in the world remain unresolved between Ankara and Athens, with occasional dog fighting between Turkish and Greek fighter jets and the two nations coming to the edge of war on sovereignty over a tiny islet as recent as 12 years earlier.

Trouble everywhere:

On the eastern opposite of the border with Greece, there is a closed border. A border can open or close any time due to détente/entente, but the more outstanding feature of the Turkish-Armenian division is an almost-century-long dispute over whether the Turks committed genocide against Ottoman Armenians, with no realistic prospects for a handshake.

Is there another country in the world that has icy diplomatic relations with an oceans-away country due to incidents a century ago that has nothing to do with the two of them? Well, for the Turks, Argentina is the land of tango, football and “a lackey of Armenians.” Go southward from the Armenian border, you come across the old rival of the Ottoman Empire, the country which many Turks believe has always wished to “export its Mullah regime to Turkey and has murdered Turkish intellectuals,” the Shia “Satan” which most Turks secretly dislike but overtly admire due to its bravado against the other “Satan,” the United States. A love-and-hate relationship with Iran. And the same with America: Most Turks hate America, and most Turks vote for the most-ever American-friendly government. Complicated? Just Turkish…Up north, trading with Russia is all right – it's always all right as long as sacks of dollars change hands – but the “historic mutual distrust” is always there. And down south, Turkey has a neighbor that is run by occupying powers and strives to be a “country;” a country Turkey bombs and shells and, from time to time, temporarily invades in order to fight the terrorists who have safe havens in its territory, men who say they want “peace” with Turkey but probably want a “piece” of Turkey. Even more complex is the fact that the terrorists that Turkey bombs and shells in Iraq have millions of supporters inside Turkey. Again, too complex? Just Turkish. In 1996, Turkish security forces shot and killed a Greek Cypriot who climbed a flag post to pull down the Turkish flag there. Twelve years later, Kurdish youths inside Turkey bring down the Turkish flag wherever they grab it, and without – fortunately – being shot. Ironic? Turkish. But this is only the “Turks vs. others” side of the picture. The “family” picture is even more complex.

The military is at odds with the government on political Islam. Two opposition parties, CHP and MHP, traditionally allies with the military on matters of Kemalist/nationalist ethos. But now the military is at odds with CHP and MHP on why and how and when it pulled out of Iraq. The government allied with the MHP on constitutional amendments to remove the ban on the Islamic turban on campuses. But the two differ on civil liberties, ethnic freedoms and on rights for non-Muslim minorities. The CHP and MHP share a skeptical view on Turkey's EU membership, but they differ on the turban. The government allies with the MHP on the turban, but they differ on the return of non-Muslim property confiscated by the Turkish state. On this last point, the CHP and MHP, which differ on the turban, go hand in hand. The government and the pro-Kurdish DTP ally on Islamic matters and, partly, on ethnic freedoms, but they differ on a military incursion into northern Iraq. For the start of the land offensive the CHP and MHP sided with the government, but this support turned into a tug of war on the exit strategy. Islamist Turks share a common goal with “mildly” Islamist Turks on the turban and other Islamic matters, but then they fall apart when the Islamists find the mildly Islamists too soft and too pro-western. Similarly, secularist Turks and secular Turks naturally ally with each other against political Islam, but they break up at the crossroads that divides the main road between “destination EU” and “destination unknown.”

Ethnic disputes even with China?:

But if a capital that is 10 hours flight away from Beijing can have “ethnic” disputes with the Chinese – over China's Turkic Uighur minority – all that complex picture should be understandable. That being “our beloved country,” can there be any surprise if a municipality in the eastern province of Erzurum celebrated its liberation in a staged event that, in front of school children, featured Armenian gangs sending the imam to the gallows, torching the mosque and bayoneting a doll in a crib? I have a couple of questions on this “great piece of theater” which had a cast composed of municipality workers: 1. Would that AKP-run municipality have canceled the event for future anniversaries if it had not appeared on the front pages of most Turkish newspapers?

2. Can it be a coincidence that in the July 22, 2007 elections the AKP won 68 percent of the votes in Erzurum?

[hitite]

You have complained many times that Armenians teach hatred, yet you can't muster enough humanity to condemn this play for all that it is, a hateful, despicable, barbaric display of inhumanity.

While saying Armenians teach hatred did I ever say Turks teach world peace? Teaching, feeling and living hatred is very Turkish, I can never deny that. The reason I was talking about Armenian hatred was because some people here were srutting around dressed up as saints while holding on to their gonads underneath their holy gowns. They were calling Turks idiots, brainwashed and racist when they were too stupid to see that they were no different. But I guess you dont like it when a Turk points out how f..king screwed up you yourself are coz you're too damn up your own asses that you dont have the balls to face your own worthless selves.

So dont come yelling at me that I am not human enough to codemn this play. I told you guys that it was pathetic, lacked accuracy, that it was bad for children and the actors were dumb xxxxs picked from the street. What else do you want me to freaking do, rip my heart out? The fact that I said that those events in general are funny doesnt negate the fact that the one in Ashkale was and is an act of brutality.

You know what, some of you guys really are experts at twisting things to suit your argument or your "cause". You are so phucked up you're too scared to admit it to yourself.

[hitite]

What is it about Ashkale that makes it so? AllI know about it is that it is an ugly one-street town with a train station, huge concrete factory, and massive limestone quarry.

In 1941 Ashkale was also the location of the prison/concentration camp of those held as a result of the oppressive tax law. Was it chosen for some other reason rather than its remoteness?

If its East of Ankara, has a low Kurdish population and high unemplyment then its probably a very religous town where fanatic nationalism will also find its place. Nevertheless MHP still ranks low in those areas compared to AKP so I think you get the picture.

[bell-the-cat]

In 1941 Ashkale was also the location of the prison/concentration camp of those held as a result of the oppressive tax law. Was it chosen for some other reason rather than its remoteness?

A thought came to me on this, maybe the location was chosen just because there was ready accomodation there. The railway linking Ankara with Erzincan was opened in 1939, maybe the stretch between Erzurum and Askale was still being constructed in 1940, and it was now un-needed railway workers accomodation that was used as a makeshift prison.

[phantom]

While saying Armenians teach hatred did I ever say Turks teach world peace? Teaching, feeling and living hatred is very Turkish, I can never deny that. The reason I was talking about Armenian hatred was because some people here were srutting around dressed up as saints while holding on to their gonads underneath their holy gowns. They were calling Turks idiots, brainwashed and racist when they were too stupid to see that they were no different. But I guess you dont like it when a Turk points out how f..king screwed up you yourself are coz you're too damn up your own asses that you dont have the balls to face your own worthless selves.

So dont come yelling at me that I am not human enough to codemn this play. I told you guys that it was pathetic, lacked accuracy, that it was bad for children and the actors were dumb xxxxs picked from the street. What else do you want me to freaking do, rip my heart out? The fact that I said that those events in general are funny doesnt negate the fact that the one in Ashkale was and is an act of brutality.

You know what, some of you guys really are experts at twisting things to suit your argument or your "cause". You are so phucked up you're too scared to admit it to yourself.

Don't be so sanctimonious. Your initial response was simply dismissive, as if this whole travesty of a play was just some stupid little joke that's no big deal. You even compared it to the 40 Days of Musa Dagh, which made me want to puke. As if this sick display has nothing to do with why Turks view us as parasites and kill our peace-makers without a second thought. Now, after you've been called on it, you finally take it seriously. But that's something you should have done from the beginning. I don't need you to rip your heart out. I just need you to get your head out of your ass.

[imported_Strabo]

The Anatolian revolutionaries would not have given bulls crap about previous historical alliances when English, French, Russians and Italians stepped on what was by then the Turkish heartland. Thats why they were 'kicked' out. They killed and plundered Turks and thats why no 'gratitude' is shown to them on liberation days because they did not help Turks in our war of independence, they were our enemy.

You attacked Russia first!! Understand ? You attacked Russia first!! October 29, 1914 ! You are lucky they had the Bolshevik revolution, otherwise Turkey would be smashed to pieces for punishment. And Russia would have Constantinople and finally have an outlet to the Mediterranean. But the revolution did happen. And they withdrew from Anatolia. You did not kick them out. And they gave you aid. Enemies do not give aid.

1920,Apr 26 Mustafa Kemal Pasha writes a letter to Lenin, seeking Soviet aid. The letter will be answered officially and favorably by Chicherin on 3 June.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_Turkish_War_of_Independence

Turkey had plenty of men. Always has. But it did not have enough weapons in 1920. Ataturk made his calculations and decided he must ask the Russians for HELP! Now the question is how important was the Russian help ? Would Turks have lost the war of Independence without Russian help ? Do Turks owe their independence to Russians ? I think yes. And so did Ataturk, because if he thought he could win against the Imperialists without Russian help he would not have asked.

Only a generation later, however, Turkey joined the Imperialists and pointed nuclear weapons at the Russians. But these same Russians gave LIFE to the Turkish Republic. Shame, Turkey, Shame! No gratitude!

[Zane]

From The Turkish Daily News on the "Open Ottoman Archives" Turkey is constantly braying about. I still cannot fathom why so many countries, including the US, believe that Turkey is sincere even as it lies so conspicuously.

Interior Ministry finds traitor through intuition

The Interior Ministry decided to ban German citizen of Turkish origins, Sait Uluışık, from entering Turkey because he was conducting research in the Ottoman archives of the Prime Ministry, daily Taraf reported yesterday. The ministry said it took the decision to ban Uluışık based on “hearsay” and “intuition” that is envisaged in Article 5682 of the Passport Law. Uluışık filed a case for the annulment of his ban and the ministry sent a notice defending its decision to the court. “Since Uluışık did not apply to become a Turkish citizen, he did not put his good intention forward,” said the ministry in its notice and added this evaluation to the reasons for the entry ban. Writer and publisher Uluışık left Turkey following the coup d'etat on Sept. 12, 1980 and his Turkish citizenship was revoked in 1991 because he did not perform his military service. He then became a German citizen in 1997. Uluışık has visited Turkey several times due to his research in the Ottoman Archives of the Prime Ministry since 2005. In the same notice, the ministry also argued he was conducting this research because he was trying to find evidence not only to prove Armenian genocide claims but was also trying to find evidence for the thesis that the Ottoman administration was involved in a Circassian genocide as well, said the daily.