Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

[Haykakan]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Turkey and Azerbaijan were born out of massacres, genocide, and crimes...asking for recognition or punishment of those crimes is immediately putting to doubt the national identity and history of those countries, that's why their so hurt when someone tells the truth.

Good analyses there, i concur.

[Mukuch]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

I don't see anything unique. Virtually all nations and peoples see themselves as a cut above everyone else, including your own. Americans, Brits, Japanese, Greeks, Armenians, Swiss .... each believe their own nationality to be the best invention since sliced bread. Narcissism and arrogance have no national boundaries. All diminish their faults and errors if they can get away with it. Nothing new here.

But not all commit Genocide and deny it. Actually there is no nation in the world with more bloody history than turks....

[Mukuch]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Turkish young people protest against Erdogan’s statement

18:33 / 03/18/2010The statement Turkish Premier Recep Erdogan is evoking more and more responses. Young people gathered in Galatasaray Square and severely criticized Premier Erdogan and the members of the Grand National Assembly representing the opposition anti-Armenian Republican People's Party (RPP) (Turkish: Cumhuriyet Halk Partisi (CHP)), particularly the notorious Armenophobe Caman Aritman.

The Turkey-based Samanyolu news agency reported that the participants in the action carried a placard with a photomontage, Talaat Pasha with Erdogan’s head, with Canam Aritman besides him. An inscription below said: “Erdogan: We will make Armenians go through Erzurum-Kars” and Aritman: Naked and on foot."

Cener Kenar, who spoke at the meeting, said: “In those times they did not ask: what would a state that responded to a Committee’s decision in this way in 2010 have done in 1915? The state reflex has not changed for 95 years. How many premiers have changed from Talaat Pasha to Erdogan Pasha. The premier’s statements are against conscience and international law. Are we advocates of Talaat Pasha or Enver Pasha? We do not want to be grandchildren of Talaat, Enver, and all those that organized Armenian pogroms. We want to be grandchildren of those who hid Armenians in their homes thereby saving them from massacres,” he said.

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

I don't see anything unique. Virtually all nations and peoples see themselves as a cut above everyone else, including your own. Americans, Brits, Japanese, Greeks, Armenians, Swiss .... each believe their own nationality to be the best invention since sliced bread. Narcissism and arrogance have no national boundaries. All diminish their faults and errors if they can get away with it. Nothing new here.

Yes, but most of those nations are proud and arrogant about their TRUE history, not some completely made up, psuedo-identity. Turks are very unique in that they live in their own little world when it comes to their own history, and how they came to be. They do not like to mention their Mongolian ancestry. They like to pretend they were Anatolian all along, and have been there just as long, if not longer than those that are actually indigenous to the region. They claim they lived side by side with those that they conquered in "peace in harmony", and that it was the conquered who inexplicably decided to strike the Turks, and take back their lands. They claim the food, dances, music and culture they absorbed from those they invaded, raped and killed to be their own, and go so far as to say it is the Greeks, Armenians, etc that are trying to steal it from THEM. They claim Armenians to be people with no history or culture who steal from Turks and Azeris, when it is directly the other way around.

Basically, saying "I'm a Turk" is ethnic equivalent to saying "I'm an American". It really means nothing, because what IS a Turk or American? It is an identityless bastardization. Americans originated as Anglos from Europe, and through centuries of intermixing, became an identityless group of people. Likewise, Turks originated as Mongols from Asia, and after centuries or FORCEFULLY intermixing, became an identityless group of people. The difference here is that, while America tries to force a unique "culture" out of commercialism, consumerism, and pop-media culture (things that THEY invented and popularized), the Turks try to pass off the cultures they absorbed from those they invaded, raped and killed as their own, all while trying to erase any trace of the people they stole these things from so as to be able to convince its people of this false identity. It reminds me of that movie where the babysitter becomes obsessed with the family she's sitting for, and wants to take the place of the mother by killing her, getting rid of all her pictres, etc and passing off the family as her own.

Turks have spent the last 100 years trying to convince themselves, as well as others, that they are Anatolian, and that they are a unique people from whom everyone is trying to steal. They want "a Turkey for Turks" only, in an effort to solidify a "unique" identity for themselves. What better way to show that you are a separate entity than to declare Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, etc as "different" and "enemies" to you and your identity? It is all a psuedo attempt to create a false sense of history and identity to hide the fact that modern day Turks, who are a bastardization of their Mongolian ancestors, and the indigenous Anatolians their current lands reside on, have no true identity of their own. Just as Americans, they are lost, identityless children.

What other ethnic group of people do you know of who created their national identity this way, and continue to perpetuate such a lie about it?

[Jos]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Yes, but most of those nations are proud and arrogant about their TRUE history, not some completely made up, psuedo-identity. Turks are very unique in that they live in their own little world when it comes to their own history, and how they came to be. They do not like to mention their Mongolian ancestry. They like to pretend they were Anatolian all along, and have been there just as long, if not longer than those that are actually indigenous to the region. They claim they lived side by side with those that they conquered in "peace in harmony", and that it was the conquered who inexplicably decided to strike the Turks, and take back their lands. They claim the food, dances, music and culture they absorbed from those they invaded, raped and killed to be their own, and go so far as to say it is the Greeks, Armenians, etc that are trying to steal it from THEM. They claim Armenians to be people with no history or culture who steal from Turks and Azeris, when it is directly the other way around.

Basically, saying "I'm a Turk" is ethnic equivalent to saying "I'm an American". It really means nothing, because what IS a Turk or American? It is an identityless bastardization. Americans originated as Anglos from Europe, and through centuries of intermixing, became an identityless group of people. Likewise, Turks originated as Mongols from Asia, and after centuries or FORCEFULLY intermixing, became an identityless group of people. The difference here is that, while America tries to force a unique "culture" out of commercialism, consumerism, and pop-media culture (things that THEY invented and popularized), the Turks try to pass off the cultures they absorbed from those they invaded, raped and killed as their own, all while trying to erase any trace of the people they stole these things from so as to be able to convince its people of this false identity. It reminds me of that movie where the babysitter becomes obsessed with the family she's sitting for, and wants to take the place of the mother by killing her, getting rid of all her pictres, etc and passing off the family as her own.

Turks have spent the last 100 years trying to convince themselves, as well as others, that they are Anatolian, and that they are a unique people from whom everyone is trying to steal. They want "a Turkey for Turks" only, in an effort to solidify a "unique" identity for themselves. What better way to show that you are a separate entity than to declare Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, etc as "different" and "enemies" to you and your identity? It is all a psuedo attempt to create a false sense of history and identity to hide the fact that modern day Turks, who are a bastardization of their Mongolian ancestors, and the indigenous Anatolians their current lands reside on, have no true identity of their own. Just as Americans, they are lost, identityless children.

What other ethnic group of people do you know of who created their national identity this way, and continue to perpetuate such a lie about it?

This isn’t the first time that I’ve heard Armenians like you regurgitate the same myth. The more likely truth is that Turkic people originated on the steppes of central asia and being a fiercely independent people, moved in westward direction to escape from Mongolian invaders and conquerors. But even if there were some mixed Mongolian ancestry, I take note of your racist intent.

Perhaps the magnificent Armenian civilisation should have also followed the same modus operandi and ‘moved on’ to escape the invading Turkic hordes. Your people could have spared themselves centuries of subjugation and misery and built a great empire with all that “food, dances, music and culture”. But then again, just look at what the Armenians have built in Glendale, a superior culture, simply magnificent! Those ungrateful American bas.tards, “lost, identityless children”, how impolite of them not to show the respect your people deserve.

[Mukuch]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Perhaps the magnificent Armenian civilisation should have also followed the same modus operandi and ‘moved on’ to escape the invading Turkic hordes. Your people could have spared themselves centuries of subjugation and misery and built a great empire with all that “food, dances, music and culture”. .

What better prove there cn be that turks are still thinking as nomads? What you mean “move on”? turk-mongols moved because they never have settled, they didn’t have their own land, didn’t have cities didn’t have any civilization didn’t have nothing but horses and catle, they always parasitized on others land, others goods others culture… by looting killing robbing…. That is the way turks “move on”. That is not a chois for a nation with own culture and own values

But then again, just look at what the Armenians have built in Glendale, a superior culture, simply magnificent! Those ungrateful American bas.tards, “lost, identityless children”, how impolite of them not to show the respect your people deserve.

They show all the respect, who say they don’t? Every spit on face of turks from US is a sign of respect to Armenians. You can see that on the face of your stupid Prime Minister right now.
That "Armenians of Glendale" you are so ironically talking about make your state to spend 50 million each year just to get another spit on face of turkey from American Congress. What you know about Armenian Diaspora? Yes in did that is the way to "move on". They were forced out of their lands by barbarians; they come to that country necked and hungry. Look what they achieve now. Maybe that is the way to "move on" for turks in Germany, who are already in third generation but still cleaning toilets for Germans.

[Eddo211]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Likewise, Turks originated as Mongols from Asia, and after centuries or FORCEFULLY intermixing, became an identityless group of people....

Turks have spent the last 100 years trying to convince themselves, as well as others, that they are Anatolian, and that they are a unique people from whom everyone is trying to steal....

Armenian Kingdom (1260) helped Mongolians (provided up to 40000 troops with the help of Georgia) to fight the Hamluks (in Egypt) and Seljuk Turks.....I have come across a few Turks who know the correct history of Armenians and are impressed by the matched savagery of Mongols against their Christian slave soldiers of Hamluks who repelled the Mongols and the crusaders and openned the grounds to conquer what was left of Armenia.

[Alexandros]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

Four Politicians on Trial for Speaking Kurdish

Erol ÖNDEROĞLU [email protected] Hakkari - BİA News Center 02 April 2010, Friday

Hakkari Mayor Fadıl Bedirhanoğlu, former mayor Kazım Kurt and officials of closed Democratic Society Party Fahri Kurt and Rahmi Temel stand trial for addressing their electorate in Kurdish in the run-up to the 2009 local elections.

The Court of First Instance of Hakkari in the south-east of Turkey tries four politicians from the closed pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party (DTP) on the grounds of having addressed their electorate in Kurdish in the run-up to the local elections on 29 March 2009. The second hearing of the case against Hakkari Mayor Fadıl Bedirhanoğlu, former mayor Kazım Kurt, former DTP Provincial Chair Fahri Kurt and former DTP executive Rahmi Temel was held on 31 March.

All four defendants are tried un-detained. They face charges of opposing the Political Parties Law because they gave speeches in Kurdish in public meetings during their election campaigns.


Bedirhanoğlu: Speaking in mother tongue is a virtue, not a crime

The hearing was attended by Mayor Bedihanoğlu, Fahri Kurt and Rahmi Temel, the latter is working for the Hakkari.News.com website at the same time. The judge postponed the trial to 5 May to take the statement of Kazım Kurt.

According to the HakkariNews.com website, Bedirhanoğlu said in a statement given after the hearing that the case was opened because speaking in one's own mother tongue was considered a crime.

"We came and gave our statements. We think that speaking in the mother tongue with your own people, regardless if it is Kurdish or any other language, is not a crime but a necessity and a virtue. This is not against the law at all. Even if there is a corresponding law, it certainly is not legal. I think there are many conflicts like this one. There is TRT 6 which is broadcasting in Kurdish 24 hours a day. This is permitted. Yet, it is considered a crime if a mayor speaks Kurdish. This is a disgrace for the legal system. Turkey should get rid of this sort of disgrace". (EÖ/VK)

Link

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

This isn’t the first time that I’ve heard Armenians like you regurgitate the same myth. The more likely truth is that Turkic people originated on the steppes of central asia and being a fiercely independent people, moved in westward direction to escape from Mongolian invaders and conquerors.

So...you dismiss my quote as a "myth" in the same breath you explain what you THINK the "more likely truth" is about the background of the Turkic people? If these people were so "fiercely independent", then why did they run away from the lands they were indigenous to, rather than standing their ground and carving out their own boarders? If they were so fiercely independent, where were they prior to the 6th century (Gokturks)? I presume you're implying they were meek if they preferred to run instead of holding their grounds? If that's the case, and they moved Westward to escape invaders and conquerors, why did they then themselves invade and conquer Anatolia? Doesn't sound like people who would be afraid of invaders to me. Sounds more like a myth.

But even if there were some mixed Mongolian ancestry, I take note of your racist intent.

You may take away any note you want from what I said. I state things they way they are. If the truth offends someone, then so be it. I'm not a hippie bleeding-heart liberal, so I don't water down the truth so as not to hurt someone's feelings, nor do I apologize for stating things the way they are. The bigger message you were supposed to take away from the post was that whatever their background was, just as with the Europeans who came to America, the Turks had no business swarming Anatolia, much less taking it over through the barbaric means they used.

Perhaps the magnificent Armenian civilisation should have also followed the same modus operandi and ‘moved on’ to escape the invading Turkic hordes.

So.....your solution for any peoples that are threatened is to....pack up and move? Are you serious? Perhaps that was a wee bit easier for your ancestors because they were a newly invented entity when they "moved on to escape". The Turks were nomads almost from the get-go. They weren't being uprooted from lands they had lived on for thousands of years, where they had established a rich culture, traditions and heritage.

But then again, just look at what the Armenians have built in Glendale, a superior culture, simply magnificent! Those ungrateful American bas.tards, “lost, identityless children”, how impolite of them not to show the respect your people deserve.

What are you babbling about? You cannot compare any nation on this planet to the abyss that is America. Just about anyone from ANY nation or ethnicity that moves here eventually ends up succoming to the media induced Western pop culture lifestyle of this land of the lost. I see it in Indo/Pakis, Arabs, Russians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Serbians, Polish, Greek, etc. No matter where they come/came from, within one generation (if not immediately themselves), they all want to "be American". In other words, they all suffer from an identity crisis.

Despite this, despite all the nigger wannabe Armos, the drug dealers, the insurance scammers, the charity frauders, etc, there is still a very rich community of Armenians in Glendale who work to preserve the legacy. As with anywhere Armenians have gone, they prosper as merchants and money lenders (just as they did within the Ottoman Empire, being among the very, very few peoples who sustained the Empire financially). It is far more watered down in the US than in any other country (especially given Glendale is a stone's throw from LA/Hollywood, which is the heart that pumps the blood throughout the cancer ridden body known as America), but despite everything they are up against, including their small population in the US, Armenians HAVE managed to survive and create communities.

You cannot BUILD a culture in America. America is the "anti-culture". All you can do is try to minimize the damage caused by the "melting pot meltdown" of this psudeo-nation as much as possible. To suggest Armenians can't build a rich culture by using the isolated example of what is happening in Glendale as "proof" is a cop out at best, and sheer ignorance at worst.

[Jos]

Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

[QUOTE]

.... If that's the case, and they moved Westward to escape invaders and conquerors, why did they then themselves invade and conquer Anatolia? Doesn't sound like people who would be afraid of invaders to me. Sounds more like a myth.

I'm not making it up, there's various records (fr Byzantine, Roman etc) of migration of Turkic people starting from around the 6th century and especially around 11th century of the Selcuks into anatolia. The important point is that it didn't start as an invasion but as a migration. The fact that they were mostly nomadic people meant significant numbers could have moved relatively quickly. People are generally creatures of habit and familiarity, so usually something dramatic is required like invaders, drought, famine. But we can only speculate as to why this migration initially took place. It's not inconceivable to believe that Mongol invaders into Turkic ancestral lands may have created the initial impetus to shift westwards.

The bigger message you were supposed to take away from the post was that whatever their background was, just as with the Europeans who came to America, the Turks had no business swarming Anatolia, much less taking it over through the barbaric means they used.

Migration (and conquering territories from a historical perspective) is a fact of life. Turkic people migrated and conquered for their own survival and not for the purposes of inconveniencing Armenians. Even Armenians at some point would have migrated and conquered anatolia from someone else. For example, I wonder what happened to the Hittites? Could they have been over run by Armenian population? They say Armenian origins date back to around the 6th century BC, but remember the world is 4 billion years old. Someone else was always there first.

So.....your solution for any peoples that are threatened is to....pack up and move? Are you serious? Perhaps that was a wee bit easier for your ancestors because they were a newly invented entity when they "moved on to escape". The Turks were nomads almost from the get-go. They weren't being uprooted from lands they had lived on for thousands of years, where they had established a rich culture, traditions and heritage.

That was written with a bit of tongue in cheek. I do feel a little sorry for Armenians as geography and demography around their ancestral lands hasn't been kind. But it's people that make culture, traditions and heritage and not land. Just as you said, Armenian's have created little communities all around the world, so they could have moved and created their own empire in a different geography. Needless to say they chose the familiarity of their own land rather than moving for their own independence and freedom, so the rest is history.