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Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

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  • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

    Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
    What a foul looking monument! A true visual and structural obscenity.

    It looks like an enormous fibreglass football trophy. And for the plinth, all fake marble cladding, cut wafer thin (like the stuff used for cheap kitchen worktops?). And what is that paving meant to be - poured concrete (?) with a pattern painted on it to mimic hexagonal bricks. The graphitti is the only thing it has going for it - having it there indicates there is more meaning to the monument than just being a suburban eyesore.
    That was cruel. The Assyrian community is even smaller than ours, especially in Australia and probably do not have the means to cover the costs of a more elaborate memorial. I do somewhat agree with your last sentence and do hope that the community at large gets the chance to see what was done. I hope this reflects the true magnitude of Turkish malice to ordinary Australians.
    General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

    Comment


    • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

      Originally posted by Joseph View Post
      That was cruel. The Assyrian community is even smaller than ours, especially in Australia and probably do not have the means to cover the costs of a more elaborate memorial. I do somewhat agree with your last sentence and do hope that the community at large gets the chance to see what was done. I hope this reflects the true magnitude of Turkish malice to ordinary Australians.
      What do you think good taste (or lack of) has to do with money?

      The povery so openly displayed there isn't a financial one, it is an intellectual and cultural poverty. Nor is it the size of the community this monument indicates, but perhaps its lack of a cohesive identity. So, as well as a genocide monument, is it also a monument that proclaims and foretells the extinction of a community that maybe has no real reason to exist anymore? Huh - I suppose because of all that, it is a monument that has more interest and meaning than most "public art"; it inadvertantly displays much more than its creators intended it to display. A bit like a lot of political monuments in Turkey which also combine bad design and construction with a poverty of sincere ideas.
      Last edited by bell-the-cat; 09-01-2010, 09:15 PM.
      Plenipotentiary meow!

      Comment


      • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

        Interesting

        http://nationalinterest.org/commenta...-chutzpah-4125

        The Inventors of Chutzpah



        Benny Morris | September 23, 2010

        "Chutzpah' is a useful word, which is why it is now common coin in a variety of languges. I used to believe that it was of Yiddish origin. I am now not so sure. Indeed, I tend to think it might be Turkic in provenance. Certainly, if there is any justice in this world, it should be chalked up to the credit of a handful of brazen, chuckling sages in Istanbul. They win the laurels, hands down, no contest.

        In January 2009, at Davos, Switzerland, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, told fellow panelist Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres: "When it comes to killing, you know well how to kill,” before rushing off the stage in (pretend) anger. He was protesting against what he saw as Israel's unacceptable behavior in that month's brief war with the Hamas in Gaza.

        A year later, in May 2010, Erdogan charged Israel with violating "international law" and implementing "inhumane state terrorism" over its raid on the Turkish ship "Mavi Marmara," which was trying to run Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip. (The Hamas seeks Israel's destruction and Israel refuses to allow free passage of arms to the Hamas-controlled strip.) Nine Turks, who attacked the raiders with guns, iron bars and knives, were killed by the Israeli commandos.

        Now let's look for a second at Turkish behavior.

        The Turks no longer dispute the fact that they deported and murdered hundreds of thousands of Armenians (and Greeks) during World War I (they continue to dispute the number "1.5 million" Armenian dead and that the killings were a result of a systematic policy of "genocide,” orchestrated by Istanbul), forcibly converted many thousands of Christians to Islam, and kidnapped, raped and virtually enslaved many thousands of Armenian (and Greek) girls.

        But this was (mainly) during Ottoman times. Old history, you may say.

        Let us look at some facts of more recent vintage. The European Commission of Human Rights in its report of 10 July 1976 concluded, after a lengthy investigation, that the Turkish troops invading northern Cyprus in 1974 killed Cypriot Greek civilians en masse. Turkish "troops were responsible for wholesale and repeated rapes of women of all ages from 12 to 71." After the fighting, according to the report, "the aim [of Turkish behavior] was to terrorise, destroy and eradicate the Greek population of the Turkish occupied area"; "the atrocities were deliberate tactics"—and resulted in the flight of hundreds of thousands of Greeks southwards.

        In the 1980s and 1990s, according to Wikipedia, Turkish security forces levelled "3,000" Kurdish villages in Turkey—3,000!—leading to the displacement of close to 400,000 Kurds. Thousands of Kurdish villagers were killed and tortured as Turkish troops tried to suppress Kurdish demands for a measure of autonomy.

        And Erdogan pretends fury when nine aggressive Turkish militants, set on provoking Israel, are shot dead by Israeli troops in self-defence. I challenge anyone to match, let alone surpass, this display of chutzpah, and hypocrisy.

        I wonder whether the Turks actually use the word "chutzpah.” Or do they have an equivalent word? Or don't they—and if not, why not?
        General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

        Comment


        • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

          Mavi Marmara was a Turkish Trojan Horse, a brilliant display of tactic/power by Erdogan with great political payoff.......hope this is a reminder that Turkey cannot be underestimated.
          B0zkurt Hunter

          Comment


          • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

            Turkey burned mosque during Cyprus conflict, general says

            Friday, September 24, 2010

            ISTANBUL – Bloomberg

            Retired Turkish Gen. Sabri Yirmibeşoğlu said Turkish authorities burned a mosque on Cyprus to increase civil resistance against Greeks on the disputed island, private channel Habertürk reported.

            Speaking about military strategy during a Habertürk interview, the general said Turks burned a mosque to increase animosity toward Greeks on Cyprus, Habertürk said. He did not say when the mosque-burning occurred. Turkey intervened on the island in 1974 in response to an Athens-backed coup aimed at union with Greece.

            Yirmibeşoğlu, who was in charge of civil resistance during the Cyprus war, said it was a rule of war to engage in acts of sabotage made to look as if they were carried out by the enemy.

            Yirmibeşoğlu was later named secretary-general of Turkey’s National Security Council.

            Link

            Comment


            • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

              ^^^Looks like Erdo is getting ready to burn another General who does not play his game.....like I have said, when is comes to trickery they cannot be underestimated, just like the Kangoroo Ergenekon trials that they use as pretext to shuffle the deck and the Hrant Dink case using it as political weapon against their political oponents all the while Erdogan comes out smelling like a freaking rose in front of the Turks and pretend to EU that he is doing something about their demands.


              Joseph, check out this article in Jerusalem post:

              Activist on ‘Mavi Marmara’ Black Sea ferry hijacker
              By HERB KEINON
              08/24/2010 01:59



              One of the men on the Mavi Marmara spent three years in a Turkish prison for hijacking a ferry in the Black Sea in 1996; this indicates just who the “activists” were on the boat that tried to break the Gaza blockade on May 31, Foreign Ministry officials said Monday.

              The Turkish newspaper Hurrieyt reported over the weekend that Erdinc Tekir, who was hurt during the IDF raid on the boat, was among the ninemember team that hijacked the Black Sea ferry to bring the 1996 war in Chechneya to the world’s attention. Tekir spent some three and a half years in prison for the incident.

              This shows what kind of people were on the ship,” one Foreign Ministry official said.

              “There were people with a history of violence, and willingness to use it.” The official said Israel hoped the UN panel that was established to probe the Gaza flotilla incident would look into who was on the boat. The panel needs to “shed light on what really happened for the whole world to see.”

              The ferry hijacking on the Black Sea took place during the First Chechen War; it ended without bloodshed after three days with the safe release of more than 219 unharmed captives. Another 13 people were hospitalized from illness and injuries.


              The Panamanian-registered ferry, named the Avrazya, was hijacked in Istanbul on January 16, 1996, as it was about to leave for Sochi, Russia. The terrorists, six Turks of Caucasian origin like Tekir, two Chechens and an ethnic Abkhaz from Abkhazia, had planned to blow up the ferry with 114 Russian hostages to draw attention to Chechnya’s plight.

              The Istanbul-born Tekir was sentenced to more than eight years in Turkish prison, but spent less than half that time, some 3 1/2 years, behind bars.

              Tekir was quoted as telling Hurriyet that the group that hijacked the ferry – and Israel – were both “pirates,” but “we were the pirates of goodness,” while Israel was “cruel.”

              http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=185741
              B0zkurt Hunter

              Comment


              • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                Originally posted by Joseph View Post
                Interesting

                http://nationalinterest.org/commenta...-chutzpah-4125

                The Inventors of Chutzpah



                Benny Morris | September 23, 2010

                "Chutzpah' is a useful word, which is why it is now common coin in a variety of languges. I used to believe that it was of Yiddish origin. I am now not so sure. Indeed, I tend to think it might be Turkic in provenance. Certainly, if there is any justice in this world, it should be chalked up to the credit of a handful of brazen, chuckling sages in Istanbul. They win the laurels, hands down, no contest.

                In January 2009, at Davos, Switzerland, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, told fellow panelist Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres: "When it comes to killing, you know well how to kill,” before rushing off the stage in (pretend) anger. He was protesting against what he saw as Israel's unacceptable behavior in that month's brief war with the Hamas in Gaza.

                A year later, in May 2010, Erdogan charged Israel with violating "international law" and implementing "inhumane state terrorism" over its raid on the Turkish ship "Mavi Marmara," which was trying to run Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip. (The Hamas seeks Israel's destruction and Israel refuses to allow free passage of arms to the Hamas-controlled strip.) Nine Turks, who attacked the raiders with guns, iron bars and knives, were killed by the Israeli commandos.

                Now let's look for a second at Turkish behavior.

                The Turks no longer dispute the fact that they deported and murdered hundreds of thousands of Armenians (and Greeks) during World War I (they continue to dispute the number "1.5 million" Armenian dead and that the killings were a result of a systematic policy of "genocide,” orchestrated by Istanbul), forcibly converted many thousands of Christians to Islam, and kidnapped, raped and virtually enslaved many thousands of Armenian (and Greek) girls.

                But this was (mainly) during Ottoman times. Old history, you may say.

                Let us look at some facts of more recent vintage. The European Commission of Human Rights in its report of 10 July 1976 concluded, after a lengthy investigation, that the Turkish troops invading northern Cyprus in 1974 killed Cypriot Greek civilians en masse. Turkish "troops were responsible for wholesale and repeated rapes of women of all ages from 12 to 71." After the fighting, according to the report, "the aim [of Turkish behavior] was to terrorise, destroy and eradicate the Greek population of the Turkish occupied area"; "the atrocities were deliberate tactics"—and resulted in the flight of hundreds of thousands of Greeks southwards.

                In the 1980s and 1990s, according to Wikipedia, Turkish security forces levelled "3,000" Kurdish villages in Turkey—3,000!—leading to the displacement of close to 400,000 Kurds. Thousands of Kurdish villagers were killed and tortured as Turkish troops tried to suppress Kurdish demands for a measure of autonomy.

                And Erdogan pretends fury when nine aggressive Turkish militants, set on provoking Israel, are shot dead by Israeli troops in self-defence. I challenge anyone to match, let alone surpass, this display of chutzpah, and hypocrisy.

                I wonder whether the Turks actually use the word "chutzpah.” Or do they have an equivalent word? Or don't they—and if not, why not?
                It would take ten Turks a great deal of effort to be as noxious as a single Azeri, but even 100 Azeris lying at full blast couldn't be more vomit-inducing than a single xxx. Shame on you Joseph, firstly for posting this propaganda at all, and secondly for the disrespect you are showing to those who died during the genocide.
                These vile Zionist scum have, for decades and for their own evil self interests, been working hand-in-hand with the worst in Turkey to deny the genocide. Now, suddenly, denials are gone as they use that genocide to attack their estwhile ally, again entirely for their own evil self interests.
                Plenipotentiary meow!

                Comment


                • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                  Turkey remembers mosque bombings after general’s confession

                  25 September 2010, Saturday

                  TODAY’S ZAMAN İSTANBUL

                  The bombing of two mosques in the Turkish part of Cyprus in 1962 might have been carried out by Turkish Armed Forces, revealed a retired general who inadvertently confessed to ordering the burning of a mosque as part of psychological warfare operations in 1974.

                  In remarks published by Haber Türk daily on Wednesday, Gen. Sabri Yirmibeşoğlu, who led the Special War Department in 1971 and also worked to mobilize civilian resistance during Turkey's military intervention on Cyprus in 1974, said: “In Special War, certain acts of sabotage are staged and blamed on the enemy to increase public resistance.

                  We did this on Cyprus; we even burnt down a mosque.” In response to the surprised correspondent’s incredulous look the general said, “I am giving an example,” in an attempt to clear things up.

                  In the interview with Habertürk Yirmibeşoğlu was responding to allegations from Ahmet Özal, son of Turkey’s 8th President Turgut Özal, that Yirmibeşoğlu was behind a failed assassination attempt on his father’s life.

                  The Taraf daily in an attempt to guess what mosque this could have been, remember the 1962 bombing of the Bayraktar and Ömeriye mosques. Both mosques were very important to Turkish Cypriots. The Bayraktar mosque’s minaret was severely damaged in the explosion and a shrine of Bayraktar -- the flag bearer who died during Cyprus’ conquering by the Ottomans in 1570 – was also damaged.

                  The incident had caused major outrage at the time. The Greeks had denied any involvement, with the Greek Cypriot Interior Ministry releasing a statement that accused the Turks for the bombings.

                  Meanwhile, there were also two journalists Ahmet Muzaffer Gürkan (38) and Ayhan Hikmet (35) who shared the suspicion. Their newspaper wrote about the controversy on the front page. In its Apr. 23 1962 issue, the newspaper said they would announce the real perpetrator of the bombings. Both men were killed on the same day. Gürkan was killed around 8.30 pm with an automatic weapon as he entered his house. Ayhan Hikmet was killed the same night after midnight with a hunting rifle in his bed right before his wife.

                  In 2005, Hıfsiye Hikmet – the daughter of Ayhan Hikmet – told Turkish Cypriot journalist Sevgül Uludağ that she had no doubts that her father was killed by a Turk. “They killed him so he wouldn’t be able to disclose who bombed the mosque. They said they would announce it in their new issue.” She also said as a child she remembered family elders talking about her father’s killer being Turkish and not Greek.

                  Meanwhile, the founding president of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) Rauf Denktaş said that EOKA member Yorgacis had claimed to have evidence that can prove that the bomb was detonated by Turks. He said a cross investigation was started, but there was no evidence indicating that Turkish soldiers planted the bomb.

                  The retired general and the Special War Department unit he led are also believed to have wide-ranging information concerning many alleged crimes and activities of behind-the-scene organizations such as JİTEM. This unit and Yirmibeşoğlu are implicated in the Sept. 6-7, 1955 pogrom in İstanbul against minorities, which today is widely believed to have been part of a manipulative plan concocted by Ergenekon-like structures.

                  Yirmibeşoğlu has admitted that the Sept. 6-7 events were organized by the Special War Department, documented by journalist Fatih Güllapoğlu in his book “Operation with No Tanks or Arms.” In the book, Yirmibeşoğlu is quoted as saying, “Sept. 6-7 is the work of Special War [department], and it is a spectacular organization.” However, he later denied this.

                  The Turkish Armed Forces’ Special War Department is also believed to be responsible for Turkey’s Bloody Mayday, when 34 died after unknown assailants opened fire on large crowds celebrating Labor Day in the Taksim Square. The 1978 Maraş and 1980 Çorum pogroms against Alevis in these towns are also believed to be the work of this unit. The Sivas massacre of 1993 July 12 – when 36 writers visiting Sivas with atheist writer Aziz Nesin were burnt to death in their hotel by an angry religious fundamentalist mob – is also believed to have been organized by the Special War Department or other similar units inside the military.

                  A document seized in an Ergenekon related investigation that was also included in the indictment sheds light to the workings of the Special War Department. The report, drafted by members of the military plotting to coup d’état, says that some fake operations should be staged in order to keep the people on the “resistance” front. The document is now included as evidence in the indictment against some naval officers who stand accused of having plotted to assassinate two admirals.

                  Link

                  Comment


                  • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                    Stay classy Bahceli


                    TURKISH NATIONALIST PARTY, IGNORANT OF HISTORY, TO UTTER AN ISLAMIC PRAYER IN CATHEDRAL OF ANI

                    NEWS.am
                    September 27, 2010 | 13:06

                    The Chairman of the ~SNationalist Movement Party~T Devlet Bahceli
                    has decided to start parliamentary election campaign by uttering a
                    prayer in Cathedral of Ani on October 1.

                    The MP made such a decision to counterbalance the liturgy in Surb Khach
                    (Holy Cross), the Star newspaper reports.

                    It seems to the parliamentarian, who is ignorant of history, that the
                    Armenian church, built in 1001, was built during the invasion of Halep
                    Aslan in 1064. Interestingly, the sign on the church reads in Turkish
                    language the church was built in 1001. It seems to the Turkish MP,
                    he will say a prayer in the so-called Fetie mosque.

                    The Cathedral of Ani is an original pearl of Caucasian architecture.

                    It was once the capital of a medieval Armenian kingdom that covered
                    much of present day Armenia and eastern Turkey.

                    The Cathedral was founded by the order of King Smbat II and was
                    completed under the patronage of the wife of King Gagik I, Queen
                    Katranide. The cathedral was dedicated to the Blessed Virgin. The
                    talented architect Trdat completed the building of the Catholicosal
                    palace and the Mother Cathedral of Ani.
                    General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

                    Comment


                    • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                      http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg345528.html


                      THE NAME OF THE PERSON ORDERING HRANT DINK MURDER MAY REMAIN SECRET
                      Karine Ter-Sahakyan

                      PanARMENIAN.Net
                      November 3, 2010

                      The age -related "confusion" suggests that Samast should be set
                      free immediately, or else he could name the actual person ordering
                      Dink's murder.

                      On December 31, a law, stipulating 1,5-3 year's arrest term for the
                      accused will be introduced into Turkey's criminal code. According
                      to Aksam Turkish newspaper, Ogun Samast, accused with the murder of
                      the editor-in-chief of Agos Armenian-Turkish newspaper Hrant Dink,
                      can be released, having been under arrest for 3 years and 9 months.

                      In the end of October, the court satisfied the request of Samast's
                      attorney, resolving to try him as an under-age criminal, setting the
                      punishment term at 5 years.

                      Turkish authorities aim to turn a blind eye to Hrant Dink murder case -
                      which may be the only explanation to the Criminal Code amendment.

                      The involvement of significant political figures, whose face the
                      Turkish authorities are trying to save, is clearly the reason for
                      the relaxation of laws.

                      Recently, Hrant Dink's name was involved in Ergenekon case; however,
                      the efforts were to no avail, with the supposed murderer staying
                      behind the bar.

                      There's another cause for suspicions: neither the expertise nor the
                      court managed, or rather were willing, to clarify the actual age of
                      Samast, hesitating between the age of 16 and 17.

                      The age -related "confusion" suggests that Samast should be set free
                      immediately, or else he could name the actual person ordering Dink's
                      murder. The only question is how highly that person is placed.

                      Should Ogun Samast be tried as an under-age, with the court putting
                      off the hearings, by the moment the verdict is announced, he'll be
                      set free, having served his 5-year term.
                      Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
                      Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
                      Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests

                      Comment

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