Turkish View of Themselves

[phantom]

Anyone read Orhan Pamuk's book Snow? I'm reading it right now, and it has occured to me that Turks, particulalry in the Diaspora, may have a particularly low view of themselves. They seem to have an inferiority complex and they appear to compensate for it, by being excessively defensive. They criticize European values, and exalt their own, but they seem to admire European achievements without being able to point to enough of their own achievements, which causes them anxiety. Does anyone think that part of the problem as to why the Turks can't cope with their past is that they already have issues of low self-esteem as it is. It's as if a large part of the Turkish population, actually both in an outside of Turkey, is resigned to the idea that they are not as capable as others.

Compare this to the typical Armenian attitude, which is that we are brighter, more creative, and more capable than any other group in the world. Could this be why we are relatively successful compared to other ethnic groups throughout Europe and America who have had to struggle under the same difficult conditions as we? Example: why have we exelled in Europe, particulalry France, whereas other ethnic groups are rioting out of desperation? My experience in the Armenian community has given me this impression about Armenians, but it may not be accurate, what is the impression that others here have?

[Hovik]

I'm asking for "Snow" for Christmas, looking forward to reading it...

I think your impression is relatively correct. But there are a lot of ethnic issues that Armenians in California for one are grappling with. Thats not to say that your assertion is off base, but as I am sure you know we have our share of disaster stories and as all ethnic groups have rotten apples in our tree...

I would say you are correct. Armenians have long been known as a very industrious, intelligent, peaceful and sucessful people.

I think the Turkish collective thinking definitely has a pride complex that they just cannot seem to get around. I believe they will someday but for now it is really hindering their ability to present themselves to the world as a civilized, modern society. I believe if they want to get up to speed with the modern world they will take the steps needed to mature as a nation.

One thing is for sure, the military culture and infatuation with guns, war and themselves - that creates a poisonous, toxic nationalism is the biggest obstacle at this point for Turkey.

[Gavur]

Because they have false pride in a falsified history they were thought and when they go abroad they realize that (evdeki hesab carsiya uymuyor)
The figures at home won't jive at the market
That makes them depressed of course and they dont know the reason.

[1.5 million]

Interesting points and perhaps true for some/many - I have seen indications of a bit of this (among Diaspora Turks I know) - but I would caution about over generalisation. Many Turks do seem acutly aware (and defensive) over the low opinion that many people seem to hold them in regard.

Just the same a great many Turks seem to go overbard (as many Armenians do) that Turks, Turkey and all things Turkish are the greatest and most perfect as can be in the world...

[phantom]

Interesting points and perhaps true for some/many - I have seen indications of a bit of this (among Diaspora Turks I know) - but I would caution about over generalisation. Many Turks do seem acutly aware (and defensive) over the low opinion that many people seem to hold them in regard.

Just the same a great many Turks seem to go overbard (as many Armenians do) that Turks, Turkey and all things Turkish are the greatest and most perfect as can be in the world...

You're right, it's almost pointless to make such broad generalizations . . . but I can't help it. The impression I have about the Turkish diaspora is a group of people who almost hopelessly look up to their Euro counterparts, while we in the Armenian diaspora don't seem to feel that we need to measure up to anyone.

[Gavur]

I know plenty Turkish professionals that feel the same as us and are very sucesfull!
Of course theyre in the minority.

[TurQ]

Phantom, I am not posting anymore about the usual topics here. I thought I might have something to say on this.

I personally dont have problem with traditional European values. I always felt that religous/traditional christian nations have similar values with us. But there are certain values developed by the Europeans or Westerns in general, in the last 40-50 years which also destroys their own societies. Best example is the family and how children brought up. I think we Turks and Armenians are most agree that these are not good for our societies.


Most of you dont know much about Turks including the ones who were born and raised in Turkey. Turkey is changing real fast, I too feel the same for me, being away from Turkey for over 5 years, I am not quick to jump conclusions about Turkey and Turkish society. I recommend you to do the same. Most of the diaspora Armenians have their own pre-assumptions about Turks and dont try to understand Turks, so naturally your views(in general, not you personally Phantom) are pretty much biased and most of you are comfortable with this.


Let me comment on the false pride thing. Unfortunetly we are not given a proper education about history, just memorization. Some circles of ruling elite is unconfortable with the idea of admiring the history. They think this is against modern Turkish identity. So avarage Turk has pride but no knowledge and basis to support their pride. The low esteem is another issue. Up until recently (1980s)the avarage Turk was very poor, and always overlooked by the rich and the elite. The avarage person did not have the proper ways to contribute to society, and they saw as years passed some problems do still exist and they gave up their guards and said "We cant change our fate thats the way its we have to admit it". THis was the case till the 80s, but things have changed alot with prime minister Turgut Ozal, he has shown rational ways to avarage Turk, he communicated with the avarage Turk(like Adnan Menderes) that an avarage Turk can do lots of things in an outside Turkey. Now TUrkey has lots of businesses coping with European firms, American firm. Eventhough the university educaton have problems the number of universities tripled in last 15 years. The low esteem might be an issue for large parts of older generations but not the new generation. One reason is the imposed artificial identities since Tanzimat also the other reason is little knowledge about traditional values. If you dont know about your culture, but just feel a pride, you would feel the anxiety. Most Turks that I know who came to US in last 5 years are totally the opposite. I can say that in some cities Turks have achieved what had Armenians achienved in last 100 years. Turkish nation is pretty much a dynamic nation, it is chaging quickly and there is defiance towards any status quo.

Again I advice you not to jump quick conclusions. You are quick to notice our mistakes but most of the time dont even realize that you have more severe problems within Diaspora and in Armenia. Hovik for example talks about *poisonous* nationalism that TUrks have. But hovik does not see anything wrong to post racist remarks about Turks(like saying Darwin had a low opinion about Turkish nation). You can consult the postings of other Armenians you'll see what I mean. If you critisize somebody, first check yourselves be sure that you dont have the same problems.

And Last thing about the riots in France, it is again related to self esteem. Those people did not even have a decent life intheir native countries(they were colonized by Europeans). They were systematically looked down, degraded by Europeans. There had not be any serious attempt to integrate them to the larger society. But the real reason is they are not an organized society, they are in ghettos but they are not a comunity. They are actually assimilated in European culture but they are also alliniated. They are not actually what they really are, they cant stick themselves to a identity which have roots. They have a floating identity, they feel defenseless, and aliniation and discrimination fuels their anxiety and weakness. IN MOst parts this was not the case for Turks and Turks didnt join these riots, they established groups inorder to calm down the situation.

The problem that the northern African immigrants were not experienced by Armenians. First Armenians were welcomed by French they were not discriminated. But the most important reason is the Armenian diaspora is well organized, and the Chruch has a critical role in preserving identity(As for other Orthodox Christian nations, the church is the preserver and defender of the identity). Also the diaspora motivated their community with the Turkish threat. Armenians prserved their culture and identity this is not the case for the northern African immigrants. Some of them even couldnt speak their own language when they were leaving in their native countries. They say during French occupation ALgerians couldnt speak proper Arabic, some even preer to speak French. Just compare this with the situation of the immigrant ALgerians today. I think French policies and French nation should share larger part of the guilt for the ethnic riots.

Anyone read Orhan Pamuk's book Snow? I'm reading it right now, and it has occured to me that Turks, particulalry in the Diaspora, may have a particularly low view of themselves. They seem to have an inferiority complex and they appear to compensate for it, by being excessively defensive. They criticize European values, and exalt their own, but they seem to admire European achievements without being able to point to enough of their own achievements, which causes them anxiety. Does anyone think that part of the problem as to why the Turks can't cope with their past is that they already have issues of low self-esteem as it is. It's as if a large part of the Turkish population, actually both in an outside of Turkey, is resigned to the idea that they are not as capable as others.

Compare this to the typical Armenian attitude, which is that we are brighter, more creative, and more capable than any other group in the world. Could this be why we are relatively successful compared to other ethnic groups throughout Europe and America who have had to struggle under the same difficult conditions as we? Example: why have we exelled in Europe, particulalry France, whereas other ethnic groups are rioting out of desperation? My experience in the Armenian community has given me this impression about Armenians, but it may not be accurate, what is the impression that others here have?

[TurQ]

I heard that Armenians in Lobenon loved to watch Kemal Sunal movies. But the extremists blame them being not loyal to Armenian cause by watching Turkish movies, so they would go an watch in secret.

I know plenty Turkish professionals that feel the same as us and are very sucesfull!
Of course theyre in the minority.

[Gavur]

Armenians everywhere like funny people like (Mr.Sunal)cussing Turkish because it reminds them of their parents or grandparents.

But its probably not a good idea to slip in a Saban video in a Tashnak meeting.

[phantom]

I heard that Armenians in Lobenon loved to watch Kemal Sunal movies. But the extremists blame them being not loyal to Armenian cause by watching Turkish movies, so they would go an watch in secret.

I grew up watching Kemal Sunal movies, but I'm an Istanbul Armenian, so I guess that is only natural. In Los Angeles, you can get all the latest Turkish movies, mostly from Armenian vendors.