Balkan Turks

[TurQ]

I have noticed that the bakery event took place in January 1915 in Sivas.
Time/location of that event and what I've told you is not conforming. As I dont know about exact location, but its location definetly not SIvas, somewhere between Erzinjan, Erzurum, maybe North of today's Elazig(as the pronincial borders have changed cant spot exactly the location).

That event could very well be a case after people learned those poisoning event they might be suspected that Armenians in Sivas would have done the same(after the death of few soldiers from illnesses). I am just guessing. But as I said time and location is not conforming. And it is normal because the army was being formed from new recruits and volunteers from various provinces in eastern Anatolia. They were going towards Erzurum and join the main army.

I didnt pointed the accusation to all Armenian soldiers, just a few is enough to tip off the Fedayins. And there was no proof against those Reserve officers, just suspicions. He says the army believed the fedayins were tipped off by at least some of those reserve officers(not regular soldiers) or "yedek subay", I dont know how you would translate it in English.



[QUOTE=phantom]TurQ, you are relaying a third-hand story: one told by your great-granddad to your granddad to your dad and then to you. Wait, that makes it a fourth hand story, doesn't it. And somehow the story went from Armenian soldiers poisoning their Turkish fellow soldiers to some Armenian bakers who were later found to be innocent. I'll believe anything that is within the bounds of reason. This story is not!

[TurQ]

3rd Army(i.e. army of eastern anatolia) commander Vehip Pasha ordered the execution of those officers who were responsible of killing 2500 Armenian Labour soldiers(this is from Dadrian).
The army not only accused Baheddin Shakir of killing Armenians but also issued an arrest warrant for him.
Vehip pasha also executed those officers who were out of line and killed Turks?
SO what you are suggesting is that Vehip Pasha had never ever a concern about those Armenians who were killed? Did I understand you correct?

Its funny that the Commander of the Turkish 3rd Army attempted to have Shakir arrested for these very activites - aparently in the Special Organization's zeal for attacking Armenian villages - that is well documented and began much prior to the war with the Russians - they got a bit out of hand and began raiding Turkish villages and outraging and killing Muslims as well - no surprise considering who they recruited for this group.

I'm not saying that there were not some raids - however by whom is in question. Kars BTW was within Russian dominion at this time BTW. And the documention speaks to mass organized violence against Armenians in these regions and further South and East...to a much greater and more organized/sponsored degree then any violence commmited against Turks.

I find you to be increasing disingenuous in your repetion of these same (questionable/exaggerated) charges as some form of counter and justification to what the CUP/Turks did to the Armenians. (which is just repetiotion of the proven inaccurate and of questionable validity/motivation Turkish propoganda at the time - refuted by testimony of German officers stationed in these areas with theTurks) This (justification and counter claim) is no such thing. And if you truly believe so - you are just ignorant - but I don't believe that. The Ottoman/CUP campaign of Genocide against the Armenains was so much more then some isolated massacres or combat between villages - it was a brutal, organized slaughter - and the reason it occured had nothing to do with any specific Armenian actions prior.

[phantom]

[QUOTE=TurQ]I have noticed that the bakery event took place in January 1915 in Sivas.
Time/location of that event and what I've told you is not conforming. As I dont know about exact location, but its location definetly not SIvas, somewhere between Erzinjan, Erzurum, maybe North of today's Elazig(as the pronincial borders have changed cant spot exactly the location).

That event could very well be a case after people learned those poisoning event they might be suspected that Armenians in Sivas would have done the same(after the death of few soldiers from illnesses). I am just guessing. But as I said time and location is not conforming. And it is normal because the army was being formed from new recruits and volunteers from various provinces in eastern Anatolia. They were going towards Erzurum and join the main army.

I didnt pointed the accusation to all Armenian soldiers, just a few is enough to tip off the Fedayins. And there was no proof against those Reserve officers, just suspicions. He says the army believed the fedayins were tipped off by at least some of those reserve officers(not regular soldiers) or "yedek subay", I dont know how you would translate it in English.

TurQ, you are relaying a third-hand story: one told by your great-granddad to your granddad to your dad and then to you. Wait, that makes it a fourth hand story, doesn't it. And somehow the story went from Armenian soldiers poisoning their Turkish fellow soldiers to some Armenian bakers who were later found to be innocent. I'll believe anything that is within the bounds of reason. This story is not!

TurQ, consider for a moment the amount of time and energy you've spent fruitlessly trying to prove that some Turkish soldiers were poisoned by some Armenian soldiers. You even say that you are just guessing about everything, and even though you say your granddad saw it with his own eyes, the only thing he saw was that some Turkish soldiers died from possibly poisoning. He didn't see who or what or how those soldiers got poisoned, yet somehow, the implication is that it must have been Armenians, since there were some Armenians in the battalion. This just further proves the oppression, racism, and hate that was constantly leveled at the Armenians who were scapegoated for everything. Why bring up a topic like this when it is totally unsubstantiated, and is likely to incite even more hate by Turks against Armenians for no good reason, just like it did back then during your granddad's time? What value is there in this cokamamie story, other than inciting even more hatred against us? You want to talk about first hand accounts of stories from your granddad, why don't you tell us some good stories then about his friendships or commaraderie with Armenians? Why not talk about some of the good things we've brought to your civilization, which is something you always treat in one or two words, and then you move on to stories about how we poisoned Turks?

Here, I'll help you out. I'll start the goodwill, since you are having some trouble getting yourself to say something nice about my people. My mother believes that she was saved by a Turkish doctor in Germany. Before coming to the U.S., we lived in Germany for a period of time. My mom was sick then and had to have surgery. Apparently, she couldn't communicate with the doctors who couldn't speak Turkish or Armenian, and she couldn't communicate to them that she was totally conscious and could feel everything. A Turkish doctor happened to be walking by and noticed that she was crying as she was being rolled into the surgery room, and he heard her speaking Turkish. He asked what's wrong and she said that she was not sedated and could feel everything. He yelled at her doctors and nurses for their stupidity and went with her into the operation, giving her more medication. He then visited afterwards and made sure she was all right, and he knew she was Armenian since her name is a dead giveaway. She believes that this saved her, if not from death, than at least a great deal of pain. There you go. Now it's your turn. Let's see if you can come up with something nice to say about an Armenian.

[TurQ]

Phantom
I never said "you Armenians" did that, I pointed out clearly that, it was the work of few Reserve officers. I ahve made, if not clearly upto this point, the clear distinction between the political activists and the ordinary Armenian. And I told you that I think the avarage Armenian of 1915 is my cultural ancestor. And I have real hardships about how that simple story is twisted into bakers thing ,and found contradicting. I think thats the perception issue.

My only connection with Istanbul Armenians are thru my 2 Armenian Professors during my college days in Istanbul. This was just teacher/student relation. Both were greatly appriaciated by the students.

My dad had friends when he was in elementary and secondry school. My granddad had personal family friends with Armenians and did business with them(Both Muslim and Christian Armenians). They had long run friendship with the Kalayji dayi that my dad recalls vaguely because he was very small at that time. Thats all I have. I have stated these before, several times. Good things generally take less attention than the negative things maybe thats why.

I dont have any opportunity to have friends, given the number of Armenians in Istanbul. But way back I have posted here and restate it again that Turkish society lost part of itself by losing Armenians.

I do appriciate those Armenian architects, musicians, writers and poets who were Ottoman and I am greatful to them. I have stated this quite several times. I am greatful for those who served in Army and spied for Ottomans by using their Armenian identities. If you like I can state it 100 more times that I am thankful for them.

As I also asked several times from you, I would greatly appriciate tips from Istanbul Armenians on how to approach diaspora(non-politically). I am slowly getting some ideas. I would like to be part of that kind of innitiations, if possible non political relations- may be small scale but not important, try to do something.
Thanks to Joseph about posting about Father Annoushian(an Istanbul Armenian) of New Jersey. Thru that kind of personalities I think it is kind of possible to do something. I would also appriciate any information or tips that might be helpful on this(other than recognition, or political type of things)

[QUOTE=phantom]

TurQ, consider for a moment the amount of time and energy you've spent fruitlessly trying to prove that some Turkish soldiers were poisoned by some Armenian soldiers. You even say that you are just guessing about everything, and even though you say your granddad saw it with his own eyes, the only thing he saw was that some Turkish soldiers died from possibly poisoning. He didn't see who or what or how those soldiers got poisoned, yet somehow, the implication is that it must have been Armenians, since there were some Armenians in the battalion. This just further proves the oppression, racism, and hate that was constantly leveled at the Armenians who were scapegoated for everything. Why bring up a topic like this when it is totally unsubstantiated, and is likely to incite even more hate by Turks against Armenians for no good reason, just like it did back then during your granddad's time? What value is there in this cokamamie story, other than inciting even more hatred against us? You want to talk about first hand accounts of stories from your granddad, why don't you tell us some good stories then about his friendships or commaraderie with Armenians? Why not talk about some of the good things we've brought to your civilization, which is something you always treat in one or two words, and then you move on to stories about how we poisoned Turks?

Here, I'll help you out. I'll start the goodwill, since you are having some trouble getting yourself to say something nice about my people. My mother believes that she was saved by a Turkish doctor in Germany. Before coming to the U.S., we lived in Germany for a period of time. My mom was sick then and had to have surgery. Apparently, she couldn't communicate with the doctors who couldn't speak Turkish or Armenian, and she couldn't communicate to them that she was totally conscious and could feel everything. A Turkish doctor happened to be walking by and noticed that she was crying as she was being rolled into the surgery room, and he heard her speaking Turkish. He asked what's wrong and she said that she was not sedated and could feel everything. He yelled at her doctors and nurses for their stupidity and went with her into the operation, giving her more medication. He then visited afterwards and made sure she was all right, and he knew she was Armenian since her name is a dead giveaway. She believes that this saved her, if not from death, than at least a great deal of pain. There you go. Now it's your turn. Let's see if you can come up with something nice to say about an Armenian.

[TurQ]

I also had a trip with an old (Diyarbakir born)Armenian lady from Istanbul to US. She was like any other old lady in Turkey. During the flight as she was sitting to or standing up from her seat she was saying "Bismillah" as like any other old Turkish lady. There were some kids crying during the flight she was sorry and saying "Vah vah cocuklar perisan oldu" like any other old Turkish lady. She also gave advice on American girls as well that I should be aware of some certain dangers, and it is better to get married with a girl from Turkey , Her son got married ike in his late 30s, and she adviced me not to do the same etc..

I helped her out to fill her customs paper. She has a green card for over 20 years, and she is not applying for citizenship, and she still has her Turkish passport.
[QUOTE=phantom]

I She believes that this saved her, if not from death, than at least a great deal of pain. There you go. Now it's your turn. Let's see if you can come up with something nice to say about an Armenian.

[Hovik]

I also had a trip with an old (Diyarbakir born)Armenian lady from Istanbul to US. She was like any other old lady in Turkey. During the flight as she was sitting to or standing up from her seat she was saying "Bismillah" as like any other old Turkish lady. There were some kids crying during the flight she was sorry and saying "Vah vah cocuklar perisan oldu" like any other old Turkish lady. She also gave advice on American girls as well that I should be aware of some certain dangers, and it is better to get married with a girl from Turkey , Her son got married ike in her late 30s, and she adviced me not to do the same etc..

I helped her out to fill out her customs paper. She has a green card for over 20 years, and she is not applying for citizenship, and she still has her Turkish passport.

[muffled applause]

I praise your attempts at saying something nice about an Armenian. But I wanted to ask you something:

Had the ladies actions not been "just like any old Turkish lady" in most of what you noticed about her - would your warmth towards her have been the same? If she was totally different than "any old Turkish lady", for example if she was like "any old Armenian lady" (assuming you know what they are like) would you still be as warm towards her? or was it just because she was so assimilated and had she not told you - you may have never known she wasn't Turkish (by blood), let alone that she was Armenian?

Please don't misunderstand, I am just curious... and trying not to make any false assumptions...

[TurQ]

Yes Hovik Why not?

I have only described her and her manners.

We had a very nice flight and I have got very nice advices at least caring advices from her, thats why I had warmth towards her.
After all being Turk is not my choice, and being Armenian is not her choice, like it was not your choice to be Armenian. It was God's choice. And I wont ever hate or distance myself from somebody just because of her/his ethnic background and be against the will of God.
And for any other old person, we have learned from our families that we should be respectful.

[muffled applause]

I praise your attempts at saying something nice about an Armenian. But I wanted to ask you something:

Had the ladies actions not been "just like any old Turkish lady" in most of what you noticed about her - would your warmth towards her have been the same? If she was totally different than "any old Turkish lady", for example if she was like "any old Armenian lady" (assuming you know what they are like) would you still be as warm towards her? or was it just because she was so assimilated and had she not told you - you may have never known she wasn't Turkish (by blood), let alone that she was Armenian?

Please don't misunderstand, I am just curious... and trying not to make any false assumptions...

[Hovik]

Yes Hovik Why not?

I have only described her and her manners.

We had a very nice flight and I have got very nice advices at least caring advices from her, thats why I had warmth towards her.
After all being Turk is not my choice, and being Armenian is not her choice, like it was not your choice to be Armenian. It was God's choice. And I wont ever hate or distance myself from somebody just because of her/his ethnic background and be against the will of God.
And for any other old person, we have learned from our families that we should be respectful.

I am glad to hear your words, nice story.

[TurQ]

Hovik
I have implied many times that the establishment of relations( cultural or social) between avarage Turk and Armenain is very important.

I am glad to hear your words, nice story.

[bg_turk]

I couldn't help but see that most topics here end up involving the plight of the Turks who were forced to immigrate to Anatolia in 1878, 1885, 1912-1913, and 1923-24. Given that between 25 and 30 percent of today's Turkish population has its roots in the lost European territories, the significance of their numbers becomes even more obvious. Add to this another significant percentage of refugee Turks from Crimea, and Russian Caucasus, the percentage probably goes up to 40 or 50 percent of Turkish population.

I therefore believe, not as a theory, but as a personal opinion, that this is the main reason why most of us Turks have difficulty in dealing with responsibility issues in Armenian sufferings. The initial reaction of most Turks with immigrant background is sth like: Even my grandfathers were not here (i.e. today's Turkey) when Ottomans committed these attrocities!

Well, this is obviously a totally different than the attitude of a Turk who currently lives in a house or land which had been 'abandoned' by Armenians and 'taken' by his great-grandparents. These Turks, obviously, are expected to behave and respond more sensitively to the reactions of Armenians, since their ancestors were very probably involved in their plights.

My great-grandparents were also refugees from Ohrid (Manastir)-Macedonia and Kavala-Greece. Obviously, they brought with them not only few material possessions, but also their memories, longings, despair, and disbelief about what had happened. Some of them, no doubt, devoted themselves to the protection of Anatolia which they saw as the final remaining piece of Turkish homeland. Some of them, sick and tired of the never-ending soldier life, wanted to remain in their homes, accepting to live as minorities. Some of them, carrying forever the pain of leaving their birthplaces, were even more sensitive to the pains of Greeks and Armenians, who also did not want to leave their birthplaces. My maternal great-grandfather, for example, used his high officer's rank to be sent to WW1 front in Polish Galicia, because he heard that 'bad things were done to 'Armenians who did not have guns!' (his own words).

As I always said on this forum, the sum of all individual attrocities to Armenians may or may not add up to constitute a genocide, and it is my individual opinion that it does. However, it does not automatically follow that every Turk can be held responsible to the same degree, and this is mainly because of the points I summarized above.

This is a very interesting topic.

I am a Turk from Bulgaria, and we did not leave the country during the Russian ivasion in 1878, mainly because there were very few slavs in my areas, we were a very compact population in the eastern rhodope mountains and the bulgarians simply did not bother with us.

During the Russian invasion, which Bulgaria refers to as liberation, which was concluded with the indepednece of bulgaria and the San Stefano treaty more than a million turks were forced to flee their homes, hundreds of thousands perished. THe turkish communities in the major cities like Sofia, Plovdiv, Pleven disappeared.

Still there a few turks scattered all over Balkans. In my family there are turks from Prishtina, Kosovo; Manastir, Macedonia; Deliorman, Northern Bulgaria.