Balkan Turks

[Tarrak Hasan]

Dont all Turkish history books say that there wasnt an Armenian Genocide?

But, contrary to being thought, most history books (even school books), mention about the deportation of Armenians in 1915. Of course they don't define it as genocide.

[ScythianVizier]

The Japanese themselves do not regard the dropping of the bomb on them as Genocide. As I said for it to be Genocide the goal must be the elimination of the people in question. The goal of the American Army in World War Two was just to get Japan to surrender, not kill all Japanese.

It might be due to the fact the Japanese must have been acting in line with the Japanese Constitution which was established by Mc Namara. Furthermore, nuclear bombs are, by default, the major instruments of genocide, and they are not more humanitarian than any other instruments of genocide, such as the gas chambers of NAZIs.

Like Scythian that is WHY we have the Immigration Test instead of just rejecting all Muslim Immigrants. All a Muslim has to do to come to Europe is to denounce the barbaric practices like Honor Killings.

Well, immigration test and all of those kind of fascist stuff are against the human rights decleration accepted even by those western countries . How can one entity decide on another entity's willingless to travel to another part of the world? This is simply to prevent people moving freely from one place to another.

They do it since they made a mess out in their colonies by causing too much trouble for everyone. Even in 1980s, they did support extremists against the Soviet block, and when it is collapsed, they try to put the blame on the ones they supported and financed for decades. Dont you recall the fact that Taliban was their heroes until Taliban got involved in terrorist activities against the West? Same applies to Al Kaide. If there is anyone to blame and sit the test, it must be themselves and their wicked policies that only focus on their protected borders, and their personal fortunes, nothing more.

Portions that where not under Greek Controll at the time.

Yes, it was not, but when it was, it wasnt any good for the muslims and the jews.

Not every Massacre is Genocide Scythian. Unless you can show that the European Goal was to eliminate the natives from existence it wasn't Genocide. The question does remain if mighty Europe at the hieght of it's power had as it's goal killing all of them, how did they survive hundreds of years under European Rule?

Yes, it is true for some cases, but not for the European ones. For example, the Russian killed plenty of German soliders and did commit plenty of crimes when they smashed down the NAZI Germany. I guess, nobody could claim it as a genocide since it became very personal issue to take revenge for the Russian, particularly after having lost some 23 million people at the hand of the NAZIs. So can you tell that killing some 23 million people is just some massacre? Sorry, but I dont agree. For NAZIs, the Russians were subhumans, and they must have repelled out of Europe. That is why, they did not even feed the Russian prisoners of war (a method that was perfected during colonial era in the proto-NAZI concentration camps known as plantation camps), and I think it was also a genocide.

In that case you should know about the brutal treatment the Kurds recieved in the 20th century.

Let me tell you, the PKK, which is a Stalinist terrorist organization waged a war on Turkey. PKK was supported by some countries before 1990 and supported by some other countries after 1990. They did harm the Kurdish dominated region very much indeed. When the other parts of Turkey got developed in 1980s and 1990s, PPK and the Turkish Security Forces were involved in guerrilla-type of war, and such war was not helpful for the region to maintain the same level of economic development like the rest did achieve. This resulted in lives of some 30.000 people, mostly the PKK members and the Turkish Security forces. Thus, the region became less and less attractive for people/companies to invest, a place less and less people like to go for vacation, working, or public duties like teaching at school, engineering roads, working as a doctor or nurses in the region.

If you read a bit of history of the Ottoman Kurdistan, then you will see that the Kurds always had their autonomous administration, and they were not divided into two, three parts as a consequence of some artificial maps drawn in London, Paris or Washington DC. Nevertheless, even in 1920s and 1930s, the Kurds had a lot of problems with the British due to the polices of the Brits which involved mass slaughters of the Kurds in Northern Iraq, and most did escape to Turkey even back then. Thus, recall that the Kurds did also escape to Turkey when Saddam did bomb them with chemical weapons. Yes, Turkey did alot of bad things that affected the lives of the ordinary Kurdish people living in Turkey, but I am sure that the position and the life of ordinary Kurds will only improve in the future.

I didn't say Dutch Government, I said Dutch Merchants read what I say a bit more carefully/ Dutch Merchants usually where outside of Governmental controll, their goal was just to make money. They killed a lot more people unintentionally then any Colonists did with bad intentions.

Same thing, one always acts on behalf of the other depending upon the mission. There is only one thing I could say about the Dutch, they commited various genocides, and they will be subject to intimate assessment in the future whether you agree or not. In a sense, it would be just like you do question the Turks for all the wrongful policies applied.

Ok we can debate that part through Private Messaging.

I am really surprised that it is banned, but I guess they must have had their own reasons since the level of hatred targeting "a certain group" of people is stronger than the hatred uttered for the Turks, and I believe that it simply destroys the image of the Armenians and the credibility of this forum.

Maybe not total extermination yes, but extermination in part. Just killing a lot of people wouldn't count as genocide.

Well, as I said before, it depends upon the intention, rather than the numbers.

Thank you for your kind discussion.

[Gondorian]

It might be due to the fact the Japanese must have been acting in line with the Japanese Constitution which was established by Mc Namara. Furthermore, nuclear bombs are, by default, the major instruments of genocide, and they are not more humanitarian than any other instruments of genocide, such as the gas chambers of NAZIs.

The Nuclear Bomb is not by default Genocide. The fact is that it is likely that if an Invasion of Japan was needed to force Japanese Surrender a lot more Japanese People would have died. The point of dropping the bomb was to force a Surrender, not destroy the Japanese, you acknoweldged that the Intent of the perpetrator is always important in determining if it is Genocide.

Well, immigration test and all of those kind of fascist stuff are against the human rights decleration accepted even by those western countries . How can one entity decide on another entity's willingless to travel to another part of the world? This is simply to prevent people moving freely from one place to another.

They do it since they made a mess out in their colonies by causing too much trouble for everyone. Even in 1980s, they did support extremists against the Soviet block, and when it is collapsed, they try to put the blame on the ones they supported and financed for decades. Dont you recall the fact that Taliban was their heroes until Taliban got involved in terrorist activities against the West? Same applies to Al Kaide. If there is anyone to blame and sit the test, it must be themselves and their wicked policies that only focus on their protected borders, and their personal fortunes, nothing more.

Again Immigration is not a right, it is a priveledge. All Muslims need to do to be allowed to Immigrate is denounce Honor Killings, the violent overthrow of their new countries in favor of Shariah and all that stuff. If you are not willing to cast those things aside why should you come at all? I am willing to concede that it was a mistake to support the Taliban, however Taliban and Al Queda Crimes are their faults, not ours. Besides after the fall of the USSR support for them ended, and they did not yet have control of Afghanistan, it was only when Saudi Arabia backed them that they gained control.

Yes, it was not, but when it was, it wasnt any good for the muslims and the jews.

Actually we tried to protect the Jews from the Nazis, the Greek Orthodox Church tried it's best to save the Jews. We have already been over the population exchange though.

Yes, it is true for some cases, but not for the European ones. For example, the Russian killed plenty of German soliders and did commit plenty of crimes when they smashed down the NAZI Germany. I guess, nobody could claim it as a genocide since it became very personal issue to take revenge for the Russian, particularly after having lost some 23 million people at the hand of the NAZIs. So can you tell that killing some 23 million people is just some massacre? Sorry, but I dont agree. For NAZIs, the Russians were subhumans, and they must have repelled out of Europe. That is why, they did not even feed the Russian prisoners of war (a method that was perfected during colonial era in the proto-NAZI concentration camps known as plantation camps), and I think it was also a genocide.

I agree that what the Nazis did was Genocide. However the goal of European Colonization was to exploit, not to kill, that is why Colonized People survived the experience. I do not in any way support Colonialization, it is a crime itself, however it is a different crime then Genocide.

Let me tell you, the PKK, which is a Stalinist terrorist organization waged a war on Turkey. PKK was supported by some countries before 1990 and supported by some other countries after 1990. They did harm the Kurdish dominated region very much indeed. When the other parts of Turkey got developed in 1980s and 1990s, PPK and the Turkish Security Forces were involved in guerrilla-type of war, and such war was not helpful for the region to maintain the same level of economic development like the rest did achieve. This resulted in lives of some 30.000 people, mostly the PKK members and the Turkish Security forces. Thus, the region became less and less attractive for people/companies to invest, a place less and less people like to go for vacation, working, or public duties like teaching at school, engineering roads, working as a doctor or nurses in the region.

If you read a bit of history of the Ottoman Kurdistan, then you will see that the Kurds always had their autonomous administration, and they were not divided into two, three parts as a consequence of some artificial maps drawn in London, Paris or Washington DC. Nevertheless, even in 1920s and 1930s, the Kurds had a lot of problems with the British due to the polices of the Brits which involved mass slaughters of the Kurds in Northern Iraq, and most did escape to Turkey even back then. Thus, recall that the Kurds did also escape to Turkey when Saddam did bomb them with chemical weapons. Yes, Turkey did alot of bad things that affected the lives of the ordinary Kurdish people living in Turkey, but I am sure that the position and the life of ordinary Kurds will only improve in the future.

I don't support the PKK, but you should know what growing up has to be like for a Kurd, conditions for them in Anatolia are appalling. That said I do not support what the PKK does or the PKK in any way shape or form. Infact you have seen I got into trouble with the Nazis here before for arguing against them, and denouncing them for the terrorists they are.

Same thing, one always acts on behalf of the other depending upon the mission. There is only one thing I could say about the Dutch, they commited various genocides, and they will be subject to intimate assessment in the future whether you agree or not. In a sense, it would be just like you do question the Turks for all the wrongful policies applied.

Dutch Merchants acted alone, infact they often acted against the countries best interest. Natives of various places dying was never in the good interest of trade for independent Merchants who could get top dollar for their wares from natives, while they would have to settle for very low prices from Europeans.

I am really surprised that it is banned, but I guess they must have had their own reasons since the level of hatred targeting "a certain group" of people is stronger than the hatred uttered for the Turks, and I believe that it simply destroys the image of the Armenians and the credibility of this forum.

The rule is against discussing anything about jews. However how much credibility would this forum have if people constantly denied the Holocaust?

Well, as I said before, it depends upon the intention, rather than the numbers.

I am in total agreement about that.

Thank you for your kind discussion.

Same back to you.

[Gondorian]

I don't think the Native Americans will agree with you.

Actually I concede that there was Genocide against the Native Americans by the British, what I don't concede is that there was Genocide against the Indians.

You're the Nazi, lying piece of filth. You didn't get into trouble for denouncing the PKK, you got into trouble for denying that the US, UK, israel and NATO are also terrorists. Plus you denied that they also purposely target civilians which I proved with numerous documents and articles. I suppose you would also call the civillian deaths of Hiroshima and Nagasaki "collateral damage".

You proved nothing, infact the majority of your articles had been taken off the web by their embarrassed authors. As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki it was done in a war when London was bombed around the clock, where Greek Towns got eliminated by the Nazis for housing Greek Soldiers who escaped from them, a War where Lenningrad was bombed to the ground, and Dresdon. Both sides killed Civilians in World War Two, including the Japanese who mass murdered Chinese Civilians everywere, that is why Japan itself disagrees with you that the Atam Bombs dropped on them was Genocide. I also would like to know if you would like Greece a NATO Member to stop supporting Armenia? Your hatred for Greece and it's friends indicates it would make you happy, however would it make Armenians who actually have a brain happy? You are the Nazi, you hate Jews and the West, the exact same people they hated.

Constantly denied the holocaust? Can you show us when and where? There must be plenty of examples all over the forum if there so much of it, so it shouldn't be that difficult for you to come up with a few dozen good examples of the denials. Now go fetch!

That isn't what I said, however if anyone is interested just browse the forum you will see plenty of Holocaust Denial, and Denial of the Bosnian Genocide.

How much credibility can this forum have when people like you are constanly lying about everything?

The Liar in this thread is you, you are a morally bankrupt Neo-Nazi.

[ScythianVizier]

The Nuclear Bomb is not by default Genocide. The fact is that it is likely that if an Invasion of Japan was needed to force Japanese Surrender a lot more Japanese People would have died. The point of dropping the bomb was to force a Surrender, not destroy the Japanese, you acknoweldged that the Intent of the perpetrator is always important in determining if it is Genocide.

Well, that was the excuse to commit genocide with a nuclear bomb. Japan was already keen to negotiate the peace terms, but the US wanted complete surrender and humilation of all the Japans. Thus, some show of strength was required for her greedy imperialist allies.

Again Immigration is not a right, it is a priveledge. All Muslims need to do to be allowed to Immigrate is denounce Honor Killings, the violent overthrow of their new countries in favor of Shariah and all that stuff. If you are not willing to cast those things aside why should you come at all? I am willing to concede that it was a mistake to support the Taliban, however Taliban and Al Queda Crimes are their faults, not ours. Besides after the fall of the USSR support for them ended, and they did not yet have control of Afghanistan, it was only when Saudi Arabia backed them that they gained control.

No, it is not priviliage, it is one's right since one has more rights than a packaged good which could freely move from one border to another as long as it does comply with the profit margins of the western capitalist.

The number of Honour killings is far lower than the racial-hatred murders executed in the "Western World" by the westerners. So, it is not a notion that could use to excuse the discriminitive policies applied against a certain group of people. Thus, it was one damn mistake to support and finance those terrorist groups, and in that regard, no others are interested in bearing the responsibilities of the deadly consequences of the western polices.

Actually we tried to protect the Jews from the Nazis, the Greek Orthodox Church tried it's best to save the Jews. We have already been over the population exchange though.

The Jews suffered tremendously when Salonika exchanged hands in the Balkan War, and it was not a consequence of some NAZI policy.

I agree that what the Nazis did was Genocide. However the goal of European Colonization was to exploit, not to kill, that is why Colonized People survived the experience. I do not in any way support Colonialization, it is a crime itself, however it is a different crime then Genocide.

This is another excuse to comply with the fascist and barbaric European polices that killed hundreds of millions of people all across this planet. In fact, they own their weath sorely on that exploitation and plundering era which embodied racist and genocidal policies (such as proto-concentration camps known as the plantation camps) invented by the Western Europeans.

I don't support the PKK, but you should know what growing up has to be like for a Kurd, conditions for them in Anatolia are appalling. That said I do not support what the PKK does or the PKK in any way shape or form. Infact you have seen I got into trouble with the Nazis here before for arguing against them, and denouncing them for the terrorists they are.

The Kurds are mainly poorer people in Turkey and they have some cultural problems related to using their languages at government schools and offices, and some other cultural rights. When those problems are resolved, there would not be any Kurdish problem in Turkey.

Dutch Merchants acted alone, infact they often acted against the countries best interest. Natives of various places dying was never in the good interest of trade for independent Merchants who could get top dollar for their wares from natives, while they would have to settle for very low prices from Europeans.

Well, the Dutch government or the merchants, they were all sinister and they were all profit-driven people, They did implement terrible policies in Asia, Africa and elsewhere. I am sure that they wont be remembered as highly civilized people in the future.

The rule is against discussing anything about jews. However how much credibility would this forum have if people constantly denied the Holocaust?

Well, the problem is related to the far-right (racist) movements proliferating amongst the younger Armenian generations. They all hang out in racist forums, and they do come up with notions which could only envy the NAZIs. That is why, I believe that the mission of this site gets hampered, and the image of the Armenians turns out to be damaged by those "western oriented" racist people.

Thank you for "Tsakir-kefi" conversation.

[Gavur]

Denial of Kurds is forcibly implanted into the Turkish psyche

Sunday, June 04, 2006

KurdishMedia.com - By Sosun Welat

The Denial of Kurdish People is forcibly implanted into the Turkish psyche by so called Turkish Republic since 1923 which is established not by the people of Anatolia but by the immigrants run away from the other parts of collapsed Ottoman Empire.

I would like to share a very personal experience with the readers. I was in state sponsored boarding school in early 1970 in Kayseri Turkey about 350 KM South West of my village in Kochgiri region of Northern Kurdistan. The boarding school was a technical high school beside of providing normal high school curriculum also providing technical education to prepare graduates to be technicians in their chosen fields electronics, carpentry, metal works, metal casting, automotive mechanics etc.

The bodies of students were chosen from their Middle Schools by special exams. I enjoyed it a lot, taking advantage of comfort provided by the state. During the official holidays we participated in the parades and I even played an instrument and I wore the special uniform for the events.

We always sing the national anthem on every day and on Fridays when the Turkish Flags was put on the pole. But then on the last year of my studying everything was changed. There was not comfort anymore. I felt rejected and threatened at some point. Gradually all my best friends and some good friends started keep their distance and those who were not friendlier at all started to take hard position against me and to those who were like me. The issue started just as casual conversation about Kemalism, religion and some politics. All those participated in the conversations and discussions were bad mouthing about Alawi religion. They were alleging that the Alawi's were having orgi-sex in their religious mass gatherings and rituals to the extent that this act could be between a parent and a child; and many other allegations of misperceptions in humane acts. There for the Alawi's allegiance to the State and Kemalism cannot be trusted.

These were the tactics trying to know whether or not I was an Alawi. Further more a Kurdish Alawi and worse a left leaning Alawi Kurd in Kayseri where it was the home of Gray Wolfs Association.

At those times there were three "KKK” seen to be dangerous in Turkey.
Of course "KKK" does not stand for Ku Klax Klan. It stands for "Kizilbash" "Kurd" and "Kominist" For the Fascists and Racists Gray Wolfs any body with western style mind considered to be a communist.
Up until this time I always knowingly wanted to blend did not have enough sophisticated knowledge of myself and my roots and my nation. Although I knew about Alisher Efendi, one of the Leaders of Kochgiri Seriheldan Who was a legend in Kochgiri and who happened to be First Cousin of My Grand Father.

The insults were directed to me bluntly and purposely. It did not stop. It did not matter to the so-called my former best friends how good student I was and read the Turkum, Dogruyum and sing the National anthem, marched in the parades, they reached their goal and I was exposed. Not just as Alawi but as I mentioned earlier a Kizilbash, Kurd, and Kominist which I never believed in even though we found a sanctuary among leftist movements in Turkey. It came to a point in this very hostile environment I could not study anymore; so I had to flee. Thank god, I had an option. Before graduating from school in 4 years we were allowed to take an SAT type of exam to go to college; so I did at end of my third year and beginning of 4th year(4 year High School was called Teknisyen Okulu). And they let me to take a special exam to graduate from a lower level of high school (Sanat Okulu) I did and luckily I scored well with my SAT and got accepted quite few college and I choose one in Ankara.

The bottom line is it is not just very few in the government or few rough officers in the army who are against anything related to Kurds. It is entire Turkish Physce. It is the reality of Matadore and The Bull.

Whenever the Bull sees the Matadore he goes crazy and tries to attack the Matadore with all force and precision. We the matadores should be wiser although some of ours got martyred in many different ways and some did the ultimate sacrifice the flame of hope in Hewler will go on. It is imperative we all the Kurds should contribute to its sustained achievements.

The achievements of KRG in Hewler are many more in many different ways in less then decade then what Turkish Republic in over 80 years. In this 21st century real power does not come from real physical force but instead it comes form tolerance, chance to give others to live and flourish. The example is the old Soviet Union. It collapsed under its brut weight. If the Turkish State will not change its destiny will be the destiny of old Soviet Union, It will collapse under its brut force.

[Joseph]

This article is absurd but worthy of discussion

Reality Behind Greek Cypriot Spoilness
By Nevval Sevindi
Zaman

Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyanni expressed surprise at a poll showing that 73 percent of the Turks like Greeks.
I wonder what those who wrote about the rise in nationalism and endemic lynching attempts in Turkey said about this poll. In my opinion, that is what matters.
The barkings of those who do not know their own nation and culture go beyond borders. Even the independence of Greece came after Europe interfered in the internal affairs of the Ottoman Empire.
Greek villagers and gangs had declared war on anything Turkish just like today’s Greek Cypriot leaders are doing.
Around 25,000 Turks were killed in Mora. The revolt spread to Romania and thousands of Turks were killed in this religion-based nationalistic uprising.
If the Greeks had not been supported by external forces, local revolts would have been enough for the establishment of Greece.
The Hellenistic wave dominated the whole of Europe in the wake of the Greek revolts. Blood flowed like water in these revolts, which Europeans condoned for the sake of idealism.
And even those who were killed and banished were Muslims. Britain, France and Russia formed an alliance and secretly declared war on the Ottoman Empire. They formally declared their allegiance by destroying the Ottoman fleet at Navarino in 1827.
Russia occupied Ottoman lands in Europe and defeated the Ottoman army. The Ottoman Empire was forced to accept the independence of the Greek Kingdom.
The Greeks based their revolt against the nation state on the Byzantine Empire. They regarded the Byzantine Empire as the continuation of the Greek religion and culture. And Istanbul was its capital.
Thanks to Europe’s unrivalled military power Serbia and Romania were established. Muslims were also massacred in these countries.
Like Greece, Serbia became a homogeneous society where nationalistic movements based on emotions could flourish easily. Years later, Serbia proclaimed its long-suppressed hatred by killing Bosnians.
And most recently, Muslims were massacred in the Bosnia-Herzegovina war in the heart of Europe. Again Europe was a spectator and Russia’s supporter. Russian Panslavism was also on the rise again.
In all these events, Europe was the one that forced and pressured the Ottoman Empire and Turkey. European countries pressured the Ottomans to end the civil war and to grant privileges to rebels. This was the case with the Kurdish issue. What a coincidence!
The Ottomans fulfilled what was demanded of them at that time. The Turks were always the compromising and cooperating side. In spite of this, Serbs continued their revolt and it was quashed by force.
Also in Bulgaria, nationalists killed over 1,000 Muslims. European newspapers, which did not report this massacre, are continuing the same tradition today. It is difficult to find objective news reports on Islam and Muslims. Islam is good ammunition for a bad image.
Schools established by nationalists became very influential both in the Ottoman Empire and in newly-founded countries which seceded from the empire.
In order to achieve their goals, nationalists made use of the Ottoman policy that permitted every religious group to teach and study its religion.
The Ottomans, abiding steadfastly by their policies, became vulnerable to dissensions. They allowed schools to open. The Bulgarian Church had 700 schools under its control and was propagating nationalism in these schools.
Athens University was indoctrinating the Greek Cypriots in Greece and those living abroad in Hellenism.
The graduates of these schools, unaware of their identities, were sent abroad to educate the Greek Cypriots on who they really were.
In Greece, education was under control of the church. It was allowed to bring books and magazines into the Ottoman country.
At those times, Greek agents attempted a revolt in Crete. In 1897, about 1,500 Greek soldiers were deployed in Crete, and European countries were also being incited.
The only solution that would please the Greeks was to annex Crete. The Greeks declared war, but were defeated within a month. Naturally, Europeans resolved to intervene.
In the peace agreement after the war, Europeans said Ottomans could not annex any land. Who was the winner and who was the loser? Thousands of Muslims were killed and ethnic cleansing started all over again.
In short, the Greek Cypriot spoilness is a disease perpetuated by the help of European countries.
The best evidence of Turkish people’s pacifism is their “I like Greeks” reply to the poll and the result of Cyprus poll.
EU authorities should take into account the Turkish people’s compromising and pacifist attitudes. Should the EU mentality be that of a football fanatic who was wore Medieval clothes and planted a British flag in Germany? No it shouldn’t.
June 13, 2006