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  • Something to think about

    I believe TurQ has indeed stated that the CUP was responsible for what happened to Armenians in 1915 and that vast majority of Armenians were innocent victims. For me, it is inconsequential whether he calls it genocide or another name. What many Armenians have to realize on this board is that I think there is a wilingness for many Turks to revisit history and look at the history in a critical way. We will probably never come to an agreement and it is an important step.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and I'll give everyone some food for thought while knowing that I may end up antagonizing everyone on this board, Armenian and Turkish. These are only some of the issues and might lead furhter discusssion.


    For Armenians:

    1. Turks are not subhuman.
    2. There are good Turks and bad Turks just like any other nation.
    3. Whether we agree or not, Turks, by their frame of reference, suffered the dissolution of an empire and feel surrounded by hostile enemies or are atleast told so. They still have the feeling that people want to carve them up and are not trusting of outsiders and they feel ganged up on. Many see this a paranoia while Turks see this a caution. What happened in the Balkans was tragic.
    4. They see that there are Armenians with land claims and this is threatening
    5. Just as there are some Turks today who deny the Genocide and have ancestors who took part in those events there are also Turks whose ancestors helped save their Armenians friends and neighbors and still deny the Genocide.
    6. Turks do not learn very much about Armenians. Their textbooks which are uniform and government approved say very little and it is mostly negative. They hardly know us anymore.
    7. When Turks come into contact with Armenians, it is ussually the Istanbul Armenians (bolsahay) and they have varying degrees of outspokeness on the issue depending on how secure they feel - think canaries in a cage.
    8. The first that many Turks learn about the Genocide is when the travel outside of Turkey and suddenly see their people being accussed of something that most Turks know nothing about, something from the past they don't feel repsonsible for
    9. The ASALA did not help this issue. It may have alerted the world to the issue but it only hardened the offical position of Turkey.
    10. Turks have just as much pride and love for their families as Armenians.
    11. Most people do not like to focus on the negative events of their nations history. Nobody wants to re-visit a nightmare. Although I believe all humans/nations/races, etc. can at one time or another act as beasts, nobody will ever willingly admit that they are capable of this.
    12. The Turks who are not the first or the last to commit a genocide. It has most certainly happend since and will continue to happen because while human beings can demonstrate acts of love and compassion so can we also commit acts so cloaked in hate and savagery. Many of the EU states who remind Turkey of Armenian Genocide had themsleve comitted genocide.
    13. Culturally Turks take a more collective view and are more oriented towards the group and Armenians are fiercely individualistic. Both traits have advantages and disadvantages.
    14. Turks tend to be very nationalistic and have a lot of pride in their country. This is a good and bad thing.
    15. May Turks don't really care about the issue because it means nothing to them as they struggle to make it day to day.


    For Turks:

    1. Whether you agree it was genocide or not, Armenians lost the homeland, the place where their language, church, and culture was born and a place where they lived for thousands of years and this is extremely traumatic. Many of our family structures were ripped apart or destroyed wholesale.
    2. The overwhelming majority of Armenians did not committ treason against the Ottoman state. It should also be noted that in certain areas in the Empire things denigenerated to the point were Armenians had no choice but to be slaughtered or defend themselves and many were eventually killed anyway.
    3. Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks became scapegoats during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. This is almost an enevitable consequence.
    4. Contrary to Turkish belief, all was not well in the Empire prior to the 1870's, at least if you were a relgious minority. It mostly depended on who was the Sultan at the time and how benevolent they were. Let's not forget that Armenians were dhimmis, paid three times the amount of taxes not including taxes that had to sometimes had to be paid to Kurdish brigands. Armenians were at best, second-class citizens and in the east, were generally robbed and harrassed with impunity.
    5. Armenians are mercantile people and this has always produced jealousy and hatred among others, especially in Anatolia.
    6. The vast majority of Armenians are not Dashnak of Humchak. Most are apolitical. We may not love the Turks but we don't preach hate either.
    7. The Armenians view the Russian as the lesser of two evils.
    8. Armenians have just as much pride and love for their families as Turks.
    9. Just because a Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 as the successor state to the Ottoman Empire, does not mean that the past ceases to exist or is suddenly erased.
    10. There are quite a few Turks who have Armenian grandmothers and other relatives whether they know it or not. The result of the Genocide produced thousands of orphans who were borught into Turkish families.
    11. Armenians are not fanatical Christians. We take pride in our own church but as a cosmopolitan and mercantile people, have generally gotten along with Muslims and Jews and respect them. In the past we have had communities in such places as Amsterdam, Madras, Calcutta, Ulan Bator, Crimea, Isfahan, etc. Armenians get along just fine with Persians and Arabs.
    12. Armenians have a right to be paranoid of Turkish intentions since any sign of pan-turanism is to them certain death.
    13. There are good Armenians and bad Armenians just like any other nation.
    General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.

  • #2
    JosephJan
    Thanks for this input. I believe it has great value.
    Talat himself tells in his memoirs that the 1915 was a failure, therefore I see no reason to defend or justify their policies.

    We Turks also have an understanding of 1915, there are lots of Turkish families directly affected by the events in 1915. Turks not necessarily learn about Armenians from official point of view, they themselves have stories transmitted to them by their own ancestors. The decendants of the Turks and Kurds of Erzurum,Kars, Erzinjan, Bingol, Bitlis, Mush and Van also have something to say about these events. And these may very well differ from what would Armenians have to say. And according to the science of History this is very well understandable, and those decentants should not be vilified as racists or blind nationalists.

    As we say in Turkish this Doug consumes lots of water(Hamur cok su goturur) and endless discussions could continue on and on with no result. As you hve pointed out we might probably will never agree on certain issues or the wording. In my opinion(I know most Armenians think this is kind of a denialism), but this should not hinder efforts of dialogue, cultural/non-politic relations. I personally think that if this could be achieved Turks and Armenians can set an example to the world which I believe in danger of further clashes of civilzations and large scale conflicts.

    I believe that Turks and Armenians have a unique position. Armenians being Christian and Middleastern, Turks being Muslim and having western style country, can very well destroy some negative perceptions that favors the clash of civilizations.Actually this is what I'm concerned most.


    Originally posted by Joseph
    I believe TurQ has indeed stated that the CUP was responsible for what happened to Armenians in 1915 and that vast majority of Armenians were innocent victims. For me, it is inconsequential whether he calls it genocide or another name. What many Armenians have to realize on this board is that I think there is a wilingness for many Turks to revisit history and look at the history in a critical way. We will probably never come to an agreement and it is an important step.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and I'll give everyone some food for thought while knowing that I may end up antagonizing everyone on this board, Armenian and Turkish. These are only some of the issues and might lead furhter discusssion.


    For Armenians:

    1. Turks are not subhuman.
    2. There are good Turks and bad Turks just like any other nation.
    3. Whether we agree or not, Turks, by their frame of reference, suffered the dissolution of an empire and feel surrounded by hostile enemies or are atleast told so. They still have the feeling that people want to carve them up and are not trusting of outsiders and they feel ganged up on. Many see this a paranoia while Turks see this a caution. What happened in the Balkans was tragic.
    4. They see that there are Armenians with land claims and this is threatening
    5. Just as there are some Turks today who deny the Genocide and have ancestors who took part in those events there are also Turks whose ancestors helped save their Armenians friends and neighbors and still deny the Genocide.
    6. Turks do not learn very much about Armenians. Their textbooks which are uniform and government approved say very little and it is mostly negative. They hardly know us anymore.
    7. When Turks come into contact with Armenians, it is ussually the Istanbul Armenians (bolsahay) and they have varying degrees of outspokeness on the issue depending on how secure they feel - think canaries in a cage.
    8. The first that many Turks learn about the Genocide is when the travel outside of Turkey and suddenly see their people being accussed of something that most Turks know nothing about, something from the past they don't feel repsonsible for
    9. The ASALA did not help this issue. It may have alerted the world to the issue but it only hardened the offical position of Turkey.
    10. Turks have just as much pride and love for their families as Armenians.
    11. Most people do not like to focus on the negative events of their nations history. Nobody wants to re-visit a nightmare. Although I believe all humans/nations/races, etc. can at one time or another act as beasts, nobody will ever willingly admit that they are capable of this.
    12. The Turks who are not the first or the last to commit a genocide. It has most certainly happend since and will continue to happen because while human beings can demonstrate acts of love and compassion so can we also commit acts so cloaked in hate and savagery. Many of the EU states who remind Turkey of Armenian Genocide had themsleve comitted genocide.
    13. Culturally Turks take a more collective view and are more oriented towards the group and Armenians are fiercely individualistic. Both traits have advantages and disadvantages.
    14. Turks tend to be very nationalistic and have a lot of pride in their country. This is a good and bad thing.
    15. May Turks don't really care about the issue because it means nothing to them as they struggle to make it day to day.


    For Turks:

    1. Whether you agree it was genocide or not, Armenians lost the homeland, the place where their language, church, and culture was born and a place where they lived for thousands of years and this is extremely traumatic. Many of our family structures were ripped apart or destroyed wholesale.
    2. The overwhelming majority of Armenians did not committ treason against the Ottoman state. It should also be noted that in certain areas in the Empire things denigenerated to the point were Armenians had no choice but to be slaughtered or defend themselves and many were eventually killed anyway.
    3. Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks became scapegoats during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. This is almost an enevitable consequence.
    4. Contrary to Turkish belief, all was not well in the Empire prior to the 1870's, at least if you were a relgious minority. It mostly depended on who was the Sultan at the time and how benevolent they were. Let's not forget that Armenians were dhimmis, paid three times the amount of taxes not including taxes that had to sometimes had to be paid to Kurdish brigands. Armenians were at best, second-class citizens and in the east, were generally robbed and harrassed with impunity.
    5. Armenians are mercantile people and this has always produced jealousy and hatred among others, especially in Anatolia.
    6. The vast majority of Armenians are not Dashnak of Humchak. Most are apolitical. We may not love the Turks but we don't preach hate either.
    7. The Armenians view the Russian as the lesser of two evils.
    8. Armenians have just as much pride and love for their families as Turks.
    9. Just because a Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 as the successor state to the Ottoman Empire, does not mean that the past ceases to exist or is suddenly erased.
    10. There are quite a few Turks who have Armenian grandmothers and other relatives whether they know it or not. The result of the Genocide produced thousands of orphans who were borught into Turkish families.
    11. Armenians are not fanatical Christians. We take pride in our own church but as a cosmopolitan and mercantile people, have generally gotten along with Muslims and Jews and respect them. In the past we have had communities in such places as Amsterdam, Madras, Calcutta, Ulan Bator, Crimea, Isfahan, etc. Armenians get along just fine with Persians and Arabs.
    12. Armenians have a right to be paranoid of Turkish intentions since any sign of pan-turanism is to them certain death.
    13. There are good Armenians and bad Armenians just like any other nation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Nice post Joseph, I don't agree with everything said, but that is ok. I'm glad to see someone sharing their thoughts in such an organized and mature manner, it should serve as an example to others. In case I didn't say it before, welcome to the forum.

      Hovik
      [url]http://www.ArmenianAncestry.com[/url] - [COLOR="Red"]Armenian[/COLOR] [COLOR="Blue"]Genealogy[/COLOR] [COLOR="Orange"]Forum[/COLOR]

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hovik
        Nice post Joseph, I don't agree with everything said, but that is ok. I'm glad to see someone sharing their thoughts in such an organized and mature manner, it should serve as an example to others. In case I didn't say it before, welcome to the forum.

        Hovik
        Thanks to both TurQ and Hovik. The fact the it is an Armenian Genocide site means it will get emotional but I'd rather see mature discussion than the racist banter I've seen from Turks and Armenians on this site. I believe we can do this together.
        General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Joseph. Great post. I agree with almost all of it. The part about lots of other countries committing Genocide and not admitting isn't entirely accurate. Others have committed Genocide, but how many of them have so stubbornly and vehemently denied it for 90 years, spending millions and millions of dollars and political capital, and even trying to villaify the victims by making up lies about the supposed 500,000 Turks killed by Armenians? How many countries twist the facts so that when people defend themselves against certain slaughter, they are made out to be aggressors if they succeed in their defense? How many countries still 90 years after exterminating a group continue to despise the group they've slaughtered? How many of those countries have gone to such outrageous lengths? The Turks are alone in this category. I know of no other country in the world that has gone to such extreme, immoral, and horrific lengths!

          Comment


          • #6
            Here's an article from a Turkish paper from just yesterday that illustrates my point:

            AN APPEAL TO THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT AND TURKS ABROAD ON THE ARMENIAN ISSUE
            Ferruh Demirmen
            Houston - TDN Guest Writer

            TDN
            Wednesday, January 25, 2006

            It would seem presumptuous of me, a mere soul of humble background,
            to pen this letter to the Turkish government and Turks abroad
            (diaspora Turks) giving a piece of advice on what to do about the
            Armenian issue. Hence, I write this letter with some trepidation. But
            having witnessed what I have witnessed over the years and experiencing
            personal anguish as a result, I have reached the point where I say,
            "Enough is enough."

            This sentiment is notwithstanding the fact that Turks in all walks
            of life, inside and outside Turkey, want to live in ethnic harmony
            and peace not only with Armenians living in neighboring Armenia,
            but also with Armenians living in diaspora. But a large majority of
            Armenians, especially those living in diaspora, want to have none
            of that. Diaspora Armenians and their supporters, stuck in history,
            are engaged in a slanderous "genocide" ("g") campaign against Turks
            and Turkey invoking events that go back 90 years.

            Even if one ignores the anti-Turkish slime delivered by the
            Armenian camp through speeches, interviews, articles, books and
            exhibitions, just seeing productions such as director Atom Egoyan's
            2002 movie "Ararat," bankrolled by the Armenian lobby, is nauseating
            enough. Countless Muslims, even Jews, who suffered and perished at
            the hands of Armenians never had their stories told on screen or
            on stage. Their sufferings have gone pretty much unnoticed by the
            world. Turkey and Turks are under malicious attack.

            Hence, I call on Turkey and the diaspora Turks to rise up and take
            the offensive on the so-called Armenian "g" issue. The Turkish side
            has been too timid and too defensive on this issue, and it is time
            to change the approach. It is time to grab the bull -- the venomous
            Armenian propaganda machine -- by its horns and tackle it head on. I
            am talking about legislative, juristic and legal action.

            The Turkish government has long held that the "g" issue should be left
            to scholars, mainly historians, to settle. Normally, this would have
            been a sensible approach, leaving the matter in the hands of scholars
            who are supposed to be rational and objective. But just as it takes
            two to tango, it takes two sides to debate an issue.

            The so-called scholars of the Papazian-Dadrian-Suny-Hovannisian
            bent on the Armenian side, however, have shown no willingness, and
            no courage, to debate the controversy with their adversaries. They
            spread their odious allegations with a singular mind, avoiding and
            running away from their adversaries like the plague. They are the
            Houdinis of the scholastic world, and they deserve a Nobel Prize for
            spinning the wheel. They claim, with a straight face, that the "g"
            allegations are a fact and there is nothing to debate.

            The best example to such pseudo-scholarly approach has been numerous
            Armenian "g" conferences held from Chicago to Vienna to Los Angeles,
            where scholars from the opposite camp, foreign and Turkish, were
            deliberately excluded. Even the disgraceful "g" conference held in
            Istanbul last September excluded, by intent and design, scholars and
            intellectuals opposing the "g" allegations. Any real scholar worth a
            dime and deserving a semblance of academic respectability would frown
            upon and condemn such one-sided conferences. But not the Dashnakian
            scholars. They have an agenda to push.

            What is more, the pseudo-scholars and their cohorts never talk about
            the atrocities the treasonous Ottoman Armenians committed against
            Turks, Kurds and other non-Armenians during World War I. They have
            incurable amnesia on how droves of Armenian guerillas at that time
            joined the ranks of the invading Russian and French armies in Anatolia,
            stabbing Turks in the back. Even Boghos Nubar, the unfettered head of
            the Armenian National Delegation at the 1919 Paris peace conference,
            who submitted a letter to the French foreign minister boasting of how
            Armenians fought alongside the Allies in World War I, if he were still
            alive, would be ashamed by pseudo-scholars' selective memory. And their
            memory, of course, is totally blank when it comes to ASALA terror.

            They also would not like to be reminded of how Professor Stanford
            Shaw, a prominent American historian refuting the "g" allegations,
            was forced out from the University of California in Los Angeles (UCLA)
            some years ago after Armenian thugs exploded a bomb in front of his
            house. The professor and his family left UCLA under a death threat.

            Instead, the pseudo-scholars, the purveyors of half-truths, talk ad
            nauseam about only how the Ottoman Armenians suffered during World War
            I, portraying Turks as barbaric subhumans committing horrific crimes
            against the Armenians. Some of the pseudo-scholars even push the limits
            of ignominy and dishonesty when they compare the 1915-1917 events with
            the Jewish Holocaust. It is a classic case of hate mongering. It is
            also historic revisionism at its worst.

            Playing the "eternal victim" game, the pseudo-scholars and their
            cohorts hope to grab land from Turkey, though they wouldn't mind if the
            "poor" Armenians get some pocket money on the side. It is the same game
            that was played at the Paris, Sevres and Lausanne peace conferences
            after World War I, and the con game still goes on. Some Turks, of
            Akcam-Berktay-Gocek fame, attracted by the aphrodisiac and psychedelic
            effect of the sweet Armenian lollipop, have joined the con game.

            So, it is time to drop the illusion that the "g" issue is something to
            be left to scholars to settle. It is time for the Turkish government
            to come to the realization that this approach, sensible-appearing
            as it is, will go nowhere. The fallacy of this approach became
            obvious when Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's well-intentioned
            proposal last year to Armenian President Robert Kocharian that a
            joint Turkish-Armenian commission of historians be formed to study
            the 1915 events was thumbed down by Yerevan. The Armenian lobby was
            unmoved as well.

            Yerevan and the Armenian lobby figured, Why rock the boat when
            everything is already stacked in their favor? Why take the risk?

            Indeed, Turks and Turkey have already lost the world public opinion
            war on the "g" issue. The war has been lost mainly as a result of
            the relentless venomous Armenian campaign -- generously funded by
            the Armenian war chest -- against Turks and Turkey. But anti-Turkish
            prejudice in the West, deeply rooted in history and religious divide,
            has been instrumental as well. Add to this the lethargic, so-far
            Pollyannaish attitude of the Turkish government on the "g" issue,
            then we have a recipe for disaster on the public opinion front.

            The evidence is everywhere. The spineless, unscrupulous Western media,
            by and large, is already in the grip of the deep-pocketed Armenian
            lobby; the ethnic-pandering politicians race each other to pass,
            or try to pass, no-questions-asked pro-Armenian resolutions in their
            parliaments, and the gullible, clueless public falls silent.

            Turks are relentlessly accused without being given the chance of
            self-defense. It is a charade played on world stages again and again.

            The European Parliament, suffering from a bout of amnesia about
            what many European nations did to the natives of their ex-colonies,
            unmindful of their shameful World War I and World War II histories
            soaked in blood, sweat and slime, unmindful of the ethnic cleansing and
            genocide that they allowed to take place in their midst only a decade
            ago in what used to be Yugoslavia, and amnesiac about the genocidal
            massacre of Azeri civilians by Armenian armed forces in Hodjali
            (Azerbaijan) in 1992, has had the temerity, in its self-righteous way,
            to call on Turkey to recognize the "g" event going back 90 years.

            Or else, the European Parliament has warned, Turkey will not enter
            the European Union. Such hypocrisy!

            As if that were not enough, a mere denial of the Armenian "g" can be a
            punishable crime in Europe. This is the same Europe where freedom of
            expression is supposed to be a cherished doctrine. Call it "freedom
            of expression" with a streak of double standard running through.

            Faced with such unpleasant reality, Turkey should drop the reactive
            approach and get proactive. It should stop being defensive and be
            offensive instead. While still seeking dialogue and accommodation
            with Armenia and while still encouraging scholarly work and meetings
            on the "g" issue (which in themselves are intrinsically meritorious
            undertakings regardless of political implications), Turkey should
            take legislative and judicial steps as well.

            On the legislative side, the Turkish Parliament should pass resolutions
            condemning human rights violations of Western nations in the past
            and ask these nations to recognize their genocidal excesses in their
            ex-colonies. As ex-colonies, Algeria, Congo, Angola and Herero come
            first to mind, but many others can be named as well.

            There is no need to call representatives of these nations for
            defense. Just raising hands will do. Take the cue from European
            parliaments -- and call it "adaptation to EU norms."

            On the judicial side, Turkey should take the "g" issue to the
            International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague to seek judgment
            on whether the 1915-1917 events could be called "genocide" under the
            1948 United Nations definition, inviting Armenia to accede beforehand
            to the court's ruling. ICJ, the principal judicial organ of the United
            Nations, has jurisdiction not only to settle legal disputes submitted
            to it by states but also to give advisory opinions on legal questions
            referred to it. It is truly international in its composition, and it
            is the only competent body that can rule whether the 1915-1917 events
            can be called a genocide.

            Armenia, for obvious reasons, has shied away from approaching the IJC;
            but Turkey should on its own.

            And if it receives a favorable ruling from ICJ, as is most likely,
            Turkey should demand compensatory damages from the perpetrators of
            fraud in Europe and North America.

            The advantage of a judicial body such as ICJ is that both sides
            are given "equal time." There would be no uncontested, one-sided
            monologues delivered by Armenian propagandists, no grotesque
            accusations without challenge and no hand-picked audience. The
            pro-genocide scholars, instead of playing the smear-and-run game,
            would face their adversaries. Furthermore, such a forum would be an
            excellent opportunity to expose to the world how the Ottoman Dashnaks
            back-stabbed Turks and other non-Armenians during World War I. That
            way the Armenian propagandists would taste their own medicine.

            As for the diaspora Turks, they, too, should stop being passive and
            take action instead. The diaspora Turks are a diverse group that do
            not have, and are not raised with, any intrinsic animosity against any
            ethnic group, do not congregate in ethnically dominant neighborhoods
            (except poorly educated ones in Europe) and carry on with their normal
            daily lives trying to adapt peacefully to their host communities. The
            relentless anti-Turk campaign conducted by the Armenian lobby,
            however, has put these Turks in a difficult situation. With their
            ancestry accused of horrible crimes and their ethnicity and reputation
            smeared by insinuation, countless diaspora Turks experience insidious
            discrimination in the communities they live in.

            Against these scurrilous attacks, I implore diaspora Turks to take
            legal action. That is the only way they will have a proper hearing.

            With regard to one-sided pro-Armenian positions in their local
            municipalities and school districts, Turks can insist that their views
            be taken into account by filing lawsuits invoking the right to freedom
            of speech. In this respect, the Massachusetts school-district case,
            launched with the participation of the ATAA (Assembly of Turkish
            American Associations) in Washington, D.C., is a good example.

            Turks can file anti-defamation class-action suits against pro-Armenian
            scholars for denigrating their ancestry with slanderous lies. There
            must be accountability for disparaging a whole nation based on false
            claims. Thousands of foreign tourists and businessmen stay away from
            Turkey because of bad publicity.

            Considering that discrimination based on ethnic origin is frowned
            upon by law in many countries, diaspora Turks, in particular those
            living in the United States, can file individual personal injury suits
            against instigators of ethnic animosity, which typically gives rise
            to discrimination.

            Speaking of personal injury, I have failed to understand to this day
            why the families of Turkish diplomats who were murdered and wounded
            on foreign soil by ASALA terror have not filed civil suits against
            the Armenian organizations and groups that instilled hatred for Turks
            in the minds of young Armenians. It is such hatred that led to these
            nefarious crimes.

            And finally, how about filing a lawsuit for perpetrating deception
            -- as an Italian atheist recently accused a Roman Catholic priest
            in a small town near Rome of unlawfully asserting that Jesus Christ
            existed? An Italian prosecutor is investigating.

            Legal avenues are aplenty. Diaspora Turks should get off their comfy
            couches and act. This is particularly a good time to ponder the issue
            when the annual Turk-bashing Armenian ritual, due to culminate on
            April 24, 2006, is fast approaching.

            And will the Turks on that day, feel satisfied when President Bush,
            while probably avoiding using the dreaded "g" word, remembers "the
            infamous killings of as many as 1.5 million Armenians during the
            last days of the Ottoman Empire," but without saying a word about
            the sufferings of Muslims and without privately questioning the
            credibility of the number he is quoting? It all depends on how low
            the bar is set -- for Turks and for Mr. Bush.

            Finally, and to sum up, Turks have already faced up to their history
            by admitting that Ottoman Armenians suffered greatly during the
            final days of the Ottoman Empire. But it was a suffering brought
            about unintentionally by famine, disease and lawlessness during forced
            relocation in time of war. The question is: Will the Armenians face up
            to their history by admitting that their sufferings were unintentional
            -- hence not "g" -- and that they share blame for the tragic events
            on both sides? Otherwise, the rotten relations between the two camps
            will likely continue indefinitely. This is no way to promote peace
            and harmony.

            * Ferruh Demirmen, a Houston-based energy expert, can be reached
            at [email protected]

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            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by phantom
              Thanks Joseph. Great post. I agree with almost all of it. The part about lots of other countries committing Genocide and not admitting isn't entirely accurate. Others have committed Genocide, but how many of them have so stubbornly and vehemently denied it for 90 years, spending millions and millions of dollars and political capital, and even trying to villaify the victims by making up lies about the supposed 500,000 Turks killed by Armenians? How many countries twist the facts so that when people defend themselves against certain slaughter, they are made out to be aggressors if they succeed in their defense? How many countries still 90 years after exterminating a group continue to despise the group they've slaughtered? How many of those countries have gone to such outrageous lengths? The Turks are alone in this category. I know of no other country in the world that has gone to such extreme, immoral, and horrific lengths!
              Actually, I should have been more clear that most nations admit it past mistakes even if reluctantly and I do agree with a lot you have said. Thanks
              General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.

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