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I believe TurQ has indeed stated that the CUP was responsible for what happened to Armenians in 1915 and that vast majority of Armenians were innocent victims. For me, it is inconsequential whether he calls it genocide or another name. What many Armenians have to realize on this board is that I think there is a wilingness for many Turks to revisit history and look at the history in a critical way. We will probably never come to an agreement and it is an important step.
I'm going to go out on a limb and I'll give everyone some food for thought while knowing that I may end up antagonizing everyone on this board, Armenian and Turkish. These are only some of the issues and might lead furhter discusssion.
For Armenians:
1. Turks are not subhuman.
2. There are good Turks and bad Turks just like any other nation.
3. Whether we agree or not, Turks, by their frame of reference, suffered the dissolution of an empire and feel surrounded by hostile enemies or are atleast told so. They still have the feeling that people want to carve them up and are not trusting of outsiders and they feel ganged up on. Many see this a paranoia while Turks see this a caution. What happened in the Balkans was tragic.
4. They see that there are Armenians with land claims and this is threatening
5. Just as there are some Turks today who deny the Genocide and have ancestors who took part in those events there are also Turks whose ancestors helped save their Armenians friends and neighbors and still deny the Genocide.
6. Turks do not learn very much about Armenians. Their textbooks which are uniform and government approved say very little and it is mostly negative. They hardly know us anymore.
7. When Turks come into contact with Armenians, it is ussually the Istanbul Armenians (bolsahay) and they have varying degrees of outspokeness on the issue depending on how secure they feel - think canaries in a cage.
8. The first that many Turks learn about the Genocide is when the travel outside of Turkey and suddenly see their people being accussed of something that most Turks know nothing about, something from the past they don't feel repsonsible for
9. The ASALA did not help this issue. It may have alerted the world to the issue but it only hardened the offical position of Turkey.
10. Turks have just as much pride and love for their families as Armenians.
11. Most people do not like to focus on the negative events of their nations history. Nobody wants to re-visit a nightmare. Although I believe all humans/nations/races, etc. can at one time or another act as beasts, nobody will ever willingly admit that they are capable of this.
12. The Turks who are not the first or the last to commit a genocide. It has most certainly happend since and will continue to happen because while human beings can demonstrate acts of love and compassion so can we also commit acts so cloaked in hate and savagery. Many of the EU states who remind Turkey of Armenian Genocide had themsleve comitted genocide.
13. Culturally Turks take a more collective view and are more oriented towards the group and Armenians are fiercely individualistic. Both traits have advantages and disadvantages.
14. Turks tend to be very nationalistic and have a lot of pride in their country. This is a good and bad thing.
15. May Turks don't really care about the issue because it means nothing to them as they struggle to make it day to day.
For Turks:
1. Whether you agree it was genocide or not, Armenians lost the homeland, the place where their language, church, and culture was born and a place where they lived for thousands of years and this is extremely traumatic. Many of our family structures were ripped apart or destroyed wholesale.
2. The overwhelming majority of Armenians did not committ treason against the Ottoman state. It should also be noted that in certain areas in the Empire things denigenerated to the point were Armenians had no choice but to be slaughtered or defend themselves and many were eventually killed anyway.
3. Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks became scapegoats during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. This is almost an enevitable consequence.
4. Contrary to Turkish belief, all was not well in the Empire prior to the 1870's, at least if you were a relgious minority. It mostly depended on who was the Sultan at the time and how benevolent they were. Let's not forget that Armenians were dhimmis, paid three times the amount of taxes not including taxes that had to sometimes had to be paid to Kurdish brigands. Armenians were at best, second-class citizens and in the east, were generally robbed and harrassed with impunity.
5. Armenians are mercantile people and this has always produced jealousy and hatred among others, especially in Anatolia.
6. The vast majority of Armenians are not Dashnak of Humchak. Most are apolitical. We may not love the Turks but we don't preach hate either.
7. The Armenians view the Russian as the lesser of two evils.
8. Armenians have just as much pride and love for their families as Turks.
9. Just because a Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 as the successor state to the Ottoman Empire, does not mean that the past ceases to exist or is suddenly erased.
10. There are quite a few Turks who have Armenian grandmothers and other relatives whether they know it or not. The result of the Genocide produced thousands of orphans who were borught into Turkish families.
11. Armenians are not fanatical Christians. We take pride in our own church but as a cosmopolitan and mercantile people, have generally gotten along with Muslims and Jews and respect them. In the past we have had communities in such places as Amsterdam, Madras, Calcutta, Ulan Bator, Crimea, Isfahan, etc. Armenians get along just fine with Persians and Arabs.
12. Armenians have a right to be paranoid of Turkish intentions since any sign of pan-turanism is to them certain death.
13. There are good Armenians and bad Armenians just like any other nation.
I'm going to go out on a limb and I'll give everyone some food for thought while knowing that I may end up antagonizing everyone on this board, Armenian and Turkish. These are only some of the issues and might lead furhter discusssion.
For Armenians:
1. Turks are not subhuman.
2. There are good Turks and bad Turks just like any other nation.
3. Whether we agree or not, Turks, by their frame of reference, suffered the dissolution of an empire and feel surrounded by hostile enemies or are atleast told so. They still have the feeling that people want to carve them up and are not trusting of outsiders and they feel ganged up on. Many see this a paranoia while Turks see this a caution. What happened in the Balkans was tragic.
4. They see that there are Armenians with land claims and this is threatening
5. Just as there are some Turks today who deny the Genocide and have ancestors who took part in those events there are also Turks whose ancestors helped save their Armenians friends and neighbors and still deny the Genocide.
6. Turks do not learn very much about Armenians. Their textbooks which are uniform and government approved say very little and it is mostly negative. They hardly know us anymore.
7. When Turks come into contact with Armenians, it is ussually the Istanbul Armenians (bolsahay) and they have varying degrees of outspokeness on the issue depending on how secure they feel - think canaries in a cage.
8. The first that many Turks learn about the Genocide is when the travel outside of Turkey and suddenly see their people being accussed of something that most Turks know nothing about, something from the past they don't feel repsonsible for
9. The ASALA did not help this issue. It may have alerted the world to the issue but it only hardened the offical position of Turkey.
10. Turks have just as much pride and love for their families as Armenians.
11. Most people do not like to focus on the negative events of their nations history. Nobody wants to re-visit a nightmare. Although I believe all humans/nations/races, etc. can at one time or another act as beasts, nobody will ever willingly admit that they are capable of this.
12. The Turks who are not the first or the last to commit a genocide. It has most certainly happend since and will continue to happen because while human beings can demonstrate acts of love and compassion so can we also commit acts so cloaked in hate and savagery. Many of the EU states who remind Turkey of Armenian Genocide had themsleve comitted genocide.
13. Culturally Turks take a more collective view and are more oriented towards the group and Armenians are fiercely individualistic. Both traits have advantages and disadvantages.
14. Turks tend to be very nationalistic and have a lot of pride in their country. This is a good and bad thing.
15. May Turks don't really care about the issue because it means nothing to them as they struggle to make it day to day.
For Turks:
1. Whether you agree it was genocide or not, Armenians lost the homeland, the place where their language, church, and culture was born and a place where they lived for thousands of years and this is extremely traumatic. Many of our family structures were ripped apart or destroyed wholesale.
2. The overwhelming majority of Armenians did not committ treason against the Ottoman state. It should also be noted that in certain areas in the Empire things denigenerated to the point were Armenians had no choice but to be slaughtered or defend themselves and many were eventually killed anyway.
3. Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks became scapegoats during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. This is almost an enevitable consequence.
4. Contrary to Turkish belief, all was not well in the Empire prior to the 1870's, at least if you were a relgious minority. It mostly depended on who was the Sultan at the time and how benevolent they were. Let's not forget that Armenians were dhimmis, paid three times the amount of taxes not including taxes that had to sometimes had to be paid to Kurdish brigands. Armenians were at best, second-class citizens and in the east, were generally robbed and harrassed with impunity.
5. Armenians are mercantile people and this has always produced jealousy and hatred among others, especially in Anatolia.
6. The vast majority of Armenians are not Dashnak of Humchak. Most are apolitical. We may not love the Turks but we don't preach hate either.
7. The Armenians view the Russian as the lesser of two evils.
8. Armenians have just as much pride and love for their families as Turks.
9. Just because a Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 as the successor state to the Ottoman Empire, does not mean that the past ceases to exist or is suddenly erased.
10. There are quite a few Turks who have Armenian grandmothers and other relatives whether they know it or not. The result of the Genocide produced thousands of orphans who were borught into Turkish families.
11. Armenians are not fanatical Christians. We take pride in our own church but as a cosmopolitan and mercantile people, have generally gotten along with Muslims and Jews and respect them. In the past we have had communities in such places as Amsterdam, Madras, Calcutta, Ulan Bator, Crimea, Isfahan, etc. Armenians get along just fine with Persians and Arabs.
12. Armenians have a right to be paranoid of Turkish intentions since any sign of pan-turanism is to them certain death.
13. There are good Armenians and bad Armenians just like any other nation.
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