Conference spotlights developing approach to Armenian claims

[phantom]

The conference still seems to be going on but this one doesnt seem to be a 'totally' one sided discussion. I have read in the papers that Halil Berktay, Selim Deringil and four profesors from Armenia have been invited. It is not important if Gul has sent a message to the conference or not and what he said is not something new. What matters is if this conference can actually be a scientific one where people with different views can speak out freely. So hold your wild horses before you start getting pissed off at the conference.



Phantom does it ever occur to you that the only people really interested in these events are Armenians and Turks? The rest of the world does not give a crap about it until the day they can use and abuse the issue in some way. So when you are talking about the "whole" world going in one direction dont forget that the "whole world" doesnt care about you/us unless there's a buck to be made or some power to be gained.

Hitite, I wasn't talking about the conference, I was talking about the demonstration in Berlin.

As for the "world", I was talking about the academic world for the most part. And I don't agree with you. I think that some people who are neither Turkish nor Armenian, even if in a disinterested sort of way, do care. Was Henry Morgenthau a Turk or an Armenian; was Franz Werfel a Turk or an Armenian; was Raphael Lemkin a Turk or an Armenian; is Eli Weisel a Turk or an Armenian; how about Israel Charney.

[Gavur]

Yair Auron, an Israeli appealed to Turks to question their past.

Kathimerini, Greece
March 16 2006

Some 70 Turkish and foreign academics gathered in Istanbul yesterday
for a three-day conference to discuss whether the massacres of
Armenians during World War I amounted to genocide or not. In a rare
move, the gathering, organized by the Istanbul state university,
offered the floor to academics of all convictions even though it was
largely dominated by historians and officials who defend Turkey's
official position on the 1915-17 killings. Yair Auron, an Israeli
researcher of Jewish archives from Ottoman times, openly used the term
"genocide" and appealed to Turks to question their past.

[hitite]

Hitite, I wasn't talking about the conference, I was talking about the demonstration in Berlin.

As for the "world", I was talking about the academic world for the most part. And I don't agree with you. I think that some people who are neither Turkish nor Armenian, even if in a disinterested sort of way, do care. Was Henry Morgenthau a Turk or an Armenian; was Franz Werfel a Turk or an Armenian; was Raphael Lemkin a Turk or an Armenian; is Eli Weisel a Turk or an Armenian; how about Israel Charney.

Historians ok. When you were talking about the Berlin demonstrators and the whole world I did not quite get you were talking about academecians. However they still are a handful. How many of those people demonstrating at Berlin or politicians accepting the A.G. in Europe do you think have read any of their books. Politicians can only abuse selected portions of academic material as we can see in many Turkish and European examples. What I am trying to say is all this Armenian effort to have superpowers or other countries recognise the A.G. and pressure Turkey into doing so is all so wrong and will only strengthen reactionary elements in Turkey and the Turkish diaspora. You will jsut be creating monsters. And the Turkish effort to potray pro A.G. ideas/books/people as insulting and undermining the Turkish Republic and having people put on trial for expressing their ideas about the topic thus supposedly restricting publicity about the issue is silly and not coherent with a strong Turkey that we all want to believe in.

[Gavur]

Not Many "New Approaches" for Armenian Issue

"New Approaches in Turkish Armenian Relations" conferance will continue for 3 days witnessed the reproduction of nationalist reflexes and unscientific propositions: "There is not more noble a nation in the world than the Turks."



BIA News Center
17/03/2006 Talin SUCIYAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BİA (Istanbul) - On the first day of the international symposium entitled "New Approaches in Turkish Armenian Relations" organized by Istanbul University as the Science and Literature Faculty Cemil Birsel Meeting Hall that started on Wednesday, the symposium stayed far away from bringing new approaches to the issue. Old formulaic narratives were repeated.

The symposium witnessed the reproduction of nationalist reflexes and unscientific propositions.

Propositions and questions such as "The Armenians had sold their masters", "deportation is a form of crisis management", "how could one compare those who die from deportations with those who die from the flu", "there is no nobler nation on earth than the Turks" were repeated.

A 25-page anonymous brochure printed by İstanbul University entitled "The Attack of the Genociders and the Reactions One Must Give to Them" was introduced at the last minute at an unnamed exhibit.

The symposium started with a practice inappropriate for an academic meeting, namely with the reading of the National Anthem and the March of the 10th Year Celebrations of the Turkish Republic. Then there was a moment of silence observed for those who had lost their lives during World War I.

The National Anthem was sung by Katya Hallacoglu from Ferikoy Armenian Elementary School who was elected the best national anthem singing student and the Tenth Year (of The Republic) March was sang by the Surp Takavor Choir. The same choir then sang some Armenian pieces.

The Brochure with the unknown author and publisher

Among the various bookstands in the hall way were the publications of the Prime Minister's Office, Ataturk Research Center and the Gomidas Institute. During the first panel, there was added next to the books of the Gomidas Institute a brochure stand for a 25-page brochure entitled "The Attack of the Genociders and the Reactions One Must Give to Them."

The name of the author was someone named "Holdwater" and the translator the Turkish Forum member Fatma Sarıkaya who had attended the Bilgi University conference in September 2005. Vice Rector Şafak Ural stated that the brochure had been printed by the Istanbul University Press right before the symposium but it had not yet been accepted as an Istanbul University publication because it had not been examined adequately.

There was no information in the brochure that it had been printed by Istanbul University. The entire content of the brochure whose writer is unknown has been taken from the website www.tallerarmeniantale.com and translated by Fatma Sarıkaya.

On the first day of the conference that will continue for three days, a total of 18 presentations took place under the themes "Armenians under Ottoman Adminsitration," "Deportation according to Archival Documants" and "Great Powers and the Armenian Issue."

Even though the original title of the paper of Yair Auron who participated in the symposium from Israel was "Armenian Genocide during World War I According to the Narrtives of the Witnesses and Jewish Documentation," it appeared in the program as "Armenians under Ottoman rule according to the archival documents of the Yishuv (the Palestinian Jewish community)." This misprint was corrected at the end of the presentation by Yusuf Halacoglu.

Auron: "1915 is a Genocide"

As could also be understood from his paper title, Yair Auron gave a presentation on the proofs of the Armenian genocide in the Jewish sources. Auron stated that he had been researching genocides for 30 years and the Armenian genocide for 20 years and that he employed the term genocide not to offend anyone but because he interprets 1915 within the scientific and legal conceptualizations as genocide.

Saray: "Armenians and Greek were used as Tools for Selfish Purposes"

Mehmet Saray who presented in an emotional tone a paper entitled "Armenians and the Ottoman conception of the state" said the following at the end of his paper: "The Turkish nation is the most noble nation of the world; friends, it is not possible for such a nation to commit genocide." Saray also stated that the Armenians and Greeks were used by the Britain, France and Russia as 'tools.'

xxxkurt: "Non-Muslims prevented equality"

In her talk entitled "non-Muslims in Ottoman Law," Gülnihal xxxkurt said that the legal differentiation between the Muslims and non-Muslims occurred because the Ottoman state was a religious state and the legal system applied a religious one. She claimed that the non-Muslims did not support the application of the reforms that gave them more rights but also more responsibilities and that was why the introduction of an egalitarian understanding (to Ottoman society) was prevented directly by the non-Muslims.

Ali Arslan who defended the view that the Armenian church and the Armenian problem were interconnected stated that the (activities of the) churches had to be observed very carefully and that he wished the churches were centers of peace and love.

"Armenians have sold their Masters"

Erol Kurkcuoglu who stated while giving his paper that "the Armenian problem is an artificial (non-existent) issue created by the Russians and Western powers" referred to the Russian historian Velichkov in stating that Armenians always had masters. He narrated that these "master"s'were respectively Romans, Byzantines, Iranian, British, French and Germans. He concluded his talk by stating that "Armenians have always changed their masters in history and have sold them (the masters)."

Deportation as Crisis Management

Hikmet Ozdemir stated that his talk searched for the answer to the single question: 'what are the reasons for the deportation?' and pointed out that he had "the right to ask to know what his colleagues at Bilgi and Sabanci Universities thought about this." Ozdemir listed various rebellions to argue that deportation emerged as a crisis management technique during war.

Why did Gomidas go abroad?

In his paper entitled "Deportation according to Ottoman documents", Yusuf Sarinay gave the example of Gomidas, the first ethnomusicologist of Anatolia, stating how helpful the state elite had been in sending him abroad for his medical treatment.

Sarınay did not state that Gomidas had lost his mental health because of what he had lived through and witnessed.

Sarınay also argued that Armenians had been sent south in order to move them away from the warfront to settle them at a secure place.

"Comparison of deportation and flu deaths"

Yusuf Hallaçoğlu argued in his talk entitled "population loss due to deportation and migrations" that the number of casualties due to sickness, travel, hunger was 227 500 and that this could be compared to those in England who died from the flu.

The Activities of the Missionaries and the Armenians are Different from One Another

Hilmar Kaiser who presented a paper entitled "Merzifon, 1915: Ottoman Armenians and American Missionaries during times of Crisis" stated that one should not equate those who performed missionary activities with the Armenians because Armenians sometimes converted to Islam to escape genocide and this (conversion) would not be acceptable to the missionaries.

As proof for his argument that the purposes of the two groups were entirely different, Kaiser relayed from the memoirs of the wife the negative reaction received by the Armenian doctor who had become the director of the Merzifon missionary hospital.

Kaiser stated that Merzifon was totally cleansed of Armenians except for the Protestant Armenians who were disabled or working at the American mission.

The symposium that has not been well attended will continue at the same place Thursday and Friday. (TS/KÖ/FMG/YE)

[1.5 million]

I am very suprised at Kaiser and Auron participating in this farce. It (the "symposium" itself and the presentations) litereally turn my stomach and make my blood boil. And of course its academic credentioals are in eveidence - look now - they are distributing Holdwater...etc - yeech. I do hope others see this for what it is - however I think for the Turks this farce will be 100% sucess - "see we are discussing" etc - Shame on those who participated in such.

[phantom]

Historians ok. When you were talking about the Berlin demonstrators and the whole world I did not quite get you were talking about academecians. However they still are a handful. How many of those people demonstrating at Berlin or politicians accepting the A.G. in Europe do you think have read any of their books. Politicians can only abuse selected portions of academic material as we can see in many Turkish and European examples. What I am trying to say is all this Armenian effort to have superpowers or other countries recognise the A.G. and pressure Turkey into doing so is all so wrong and will only strengthen reactionary elements in Turkey and the Turkish diaspora. You will jsut be creating monsters. And the Turkish effort to potray pro A.G. ideas/books/people as insulting and undermining the Turkish Republic and having people put on trial for expressing their ideas about the topic thus supposedly restricting publicity about the issue is silly and not coherent with a strong Turkey that we all want to believe in.

I disagree. If we thought we could bring about change by reasoning and rationalizing with Turkey, then we would have done so long ago. We know that Turkey will never accept this thing on their own. We have no choice but to gain recognition where we can, and if Turkey doesn't come along, then it is the ugly stepchild in the family. If we hadn't put this enormous amount of effort and pressure on Turkey these past 20 years, do you think there would be any discussion whatsoever about this topic in Turkey today? Would there be conferences discussing the issue? Would Turkish historians be studying it and coming out of the closet with their findings? No! What's more, nobody would know or care about it. If it wasn't for this enormous effort, the world would have completely forgotten what happened. At least do to the efforts of the diaspora, the issue has remained alive and fresh and prompted academics around the world to look into it and study it. Keeping our mouths shut and hoping that the Turks would somehow have the grace, dignity and courage to come out on their own, would have resulted in complete and utter dissappointment and loss of our tragic recent history into oblivion.

[Kharpert]

What I am trying to say is all this Armenian effort to have superpowers or other countries recognise the A.G. and pressure Turkey into doing so is all so wrong and will only strengthen reactionary elements in Turkey and the Turkish diaspora.

In the face of ruthless denial, Armenians cannot lessen their efforts for recognition simply because it will hurt a few Turks' feelings. When we struggle for international recognition of the Armenian Genocide, we don't concern ourselves with what a reactionary minority will think of it.

[imported_RUDO]

Ankara Refuses US Call to Open Armenian Border

Ankara Refuses US Call to Open Armenian Border
By Suleyman Kurt, Ankara
Published: Saturday, March 18, 2006
zaman.com


The Turkish government responded negatively once again to a demand from the United States to open the Armenian border.

An envoy from the United States brought the Mountainous Karabag (Karabagh) region to the agenda in search of a resolution as they asked the Turkish government to reevaluate the Armenian border. On Thursday, Turkish foreign ministry officials met with Assistant Secretary of States Daniel Friend of the United States as well as with Ambassador Steven Mann, a United States negotiator assigned to find a resolution to the Mountainous Karabagh question.


Fried addressed the demand to open the Armenian border, according to reporters. Ankara, however, acted unenthusiastically to the issue at hand. Turkish officials classified the Armenian cessation of its invasion of the Karabagh region as one of the three requirements for the appeasement of relations between Turkey and Armenia. Turkey is also pushing Armenia to disavow its allegations of genocide and to remove from the Armenian constitution the anti-Turkish clauses.


Another topic at the meeting was the demand to ease the administration in North Cyprus off economic isolation. The United States envoy preferred to give priority to diplomacy in handling with Iran, reporters said, although the US administration reserves the possibility of a military operation as well.

[imported_RUDO]

Turkey: No opening border with Armenia before normalization of relations

Turkey: No opening border with Armenia before normalization of relations

The New Anatolian / Ankara



Turkish officials decisively informed U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Daniel Fried that Ankara would not open a border gate with Yerevan unless there was a normalization of ties between Turkey and Armenia.

Fried, who paid an official visit to Ankara, met with Turkish Foreign Ministry Undersecretary Ali Tuygan and Deputy Undersecretary Ahmet Uzumcu late Thursday. During the meeting, he urged Ankara to open its border gate with Armenia in order to facilitate the peace process in the divided-enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, still a point of contention between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

However, Ankara reiterated its previous position and made known that the issue was part of the normalization process of relations between Turkey and Armenia, sources said.

According to sources, Fried expressed Yerevan's willingness to normalize relations with Ankara. He also underlined both Armenia and Azerbaijan's decisiveness to find a solution to the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute, making reference to his separate meetings with Armenian President Robert Kocharian and Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev.

As a part of the U.S. efforts to contribute to a solution to the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute, Fried visited Ankara following his round of meetings in Caucuses.

Declining to predict a possible timetable regarding a solution on the enclave, Fried told the Turkish officials of the U.S.' readiness to extend any kind of support for the solution.

Fried took up with his Turkish counterparts Iran's nuclear program.

Ankara and Washington agreed to seek a diplomatic solution to the crisis which emerged between the West and Iran over Tehran's nuclear ambitions, diplomatic sources told The New Anatolian. However, according to the sources, Fried conveyed to Ankara that Washington will not rule out military operations against Iran if the issue were to be deadlocked.

The Cyprus problem also dominated the talks between Tuygan and Fried. Tuygan stressed the necessity to end the isolation of Turkish Cypriots. Although the Turkish side has always taken positive steps towards a solution on the divided island, it has not got a positive response from the international community, he said.

In criticism of the international community towards the Turkish Cypriots, Tuygan told Fried that although the Greek Cypriots have always been the uncompromising side, the international community has always rewarded them, said the sources.

During a press conference on late Thursday following his talks Fried also touched on the Armenian genocide claims, saying, "The attitude of the U.S. on this issue is well known. U.S. President George W. Bush is likely to make a statement on this issue in April, like every year."

[hitite]

I disagree. If we thought we could bring about change by reasoning and rationalizing with Turkey, then we would have done so long ago. We know that Turkey will never accept this thing on their own. We have no choice but to gain recognition where we can, and if Turkey doesn't come along, then it is the ugly stepchild in the family. If we hadn't put this enormous amount of effort and pressure on Turkey these past 20 years, do you think there would be any discussion whatsoever about this topic in Turkey today? Would there be conferences discussing the issue? Would Turkish historians be studying it and coming out of the closet with their findings? No! What's more, nobody would know or care about it. If it wasn't for this enormous effort, the world would have completely forgotten what happened. At least do to the efforts of the diaspora, the issue has remained alive and fresh and prompted academics around the world to look into it and study it. Keeping our mouths shut and hoping that the Turks would somehow have the grace, dignity and courage to come out on their own, would have resulted in complete and utter dissappointment and loss of our tragic recent history into oblivion.

Dont get me wrong. I would never advocate people keeping their mouths shut. Is that what you seriously understood from what I wrote? I agree that the effort of the Diaspora has helped keep the A.G. from being another episode of Historical Amnesia but it has also created these demonstrations and strange people like Holdwater so why are you complaining. Its a natural outcome of Turks who have believed for the last few generations in the myth that they can do no wrong. I am worried that if the demonstrations in Berlin had been organized not by the looney "Turkish Workers Party" leader Perinçek but by the Turkish Government or by MHP or other greywolf org.s then the turnout would have been a very very huge number. This type of thing did not exist in the past and I really do not like seeing it happen. As you state correctly Turkey will never accept the A.G.... not before its people believe in it. Trust me its true since I see this around me. However its a totally different issue if you dont care if Turkey accepts or not as long as everbody else does or if Turkey is 'forced' to accept even if it does not believe in it itself. I really do not think that your agenda is having the countries of the world have sympathy and recognize the A.G., if I am correct the country that matters is Turkey. These people can only learn the true past and face up to it if freedom of speach is established in this country. The EU process and overall globalisation is helping with this then you see the majority of Armenian diaspora against Turkeys entry. More pressure from the diaspora will create more ultra-nationalists in Turkey who oppose the EU etc. etc. Its a whole mess of a viscious circle. If your soul goal is to keep the A.G. remembered and for the world not to forget the millions that died then you are doing the right thing. However if your goal is to have Turkey accept the A.G. the policy that you are adhering to is wrong. As I said in a different thread humane efforts seriously need to step in at this point and this is relevant for both Turkey and the Armenian diaspora.