how did this all start with Turks having protests?

[imported_Ottoman]

Turkish People who have Bosniak, Pomak, Armenian, Greek, Roma, Kurdish, Laz, Tatar, Akbhaz, Chechen, Circassian background had power to beat their hate to Russians,Bulgarians .. and even Serbians.Now we have or starting to have good relations with these countries.Turkish and Armenian People wcan not hate each other forever...
Our ancestors managed to live together for a thousand years.Thank you creating a forum like that , we can bear and talk to other side.

[Joseph]

The Turks started to protest, and I believe their anger will get escalated over time if the Western / European / Christian countries/nations only focus on the Armenian losses.

In fact, the Ottoman muslims were subject to genocides before the Armenians, and yet there is no European country existing brave enough to tackle the tragedies that fell upon Crimean Tatars, Nogays, Akbhaz, Chechens, Circassians, Karachay-Balkars, Kumyks, Laz peoples, Albanians, Bosniaks, Pomaks, muslim Greeks, muslim Armenians, and Balkan Turks before and after 1915.

The Turks did suffer on the way out of the Balkans but what were they doing there in the first place? The Turkish arguement is alwyas that they suffered genocides at the hands of Serbs, Bulgarians, etc but the Armenians get the blame for it and were used as scapegoats.

[ScythianVizier]

The Turks did suffer on the way out of the Balkans but what were they doing there in the first place? The Turkish arguement is alwyas that they suffered genocides at the hands of Serbs, Bulgarians, etc but the Armenians get the blame for it and were used as scapegoats.

The migration of the Turks from Eastern Europe to Balkans started as early as the arrival of the Huns. With the decline of the Roman influence, the Turks (such as Bolgars) settled into Balkans. Later, the Ottoman Turks gained control over Balkans in line with the decay of the East Roman Empire. However, please note that the Turks and Byzantines co-existed for centuries before the final demise of the East Roman Empire, and surely, the Turks filled the vacuum accordingly.

Furthermore, most of the Ottoman muslims who were subject to the ethnic cleansing campaigns during the Ottoman retreat were the muslim Albanians, Bosniaks, Greeks, Pomaks, Roma peoples, and the Turks who formed the Ottoman Muslim Millet (not the modern Turkish Nation) back in time. So, such policies were all about eliminating the muslim presence in Europe, and demonstrated all elements of the genocide. Thus, such Christian/European policies were even applicable after the abolishment of the Ottoman juristiction in Balkans (and even in Caucasus), as witnessed during the Bosnian (and Chechen) Genocides. However, we havent yet seen a single European/Christian nation who is civilized enough to tackle the recognition of such genocides that are necessiated for Turkey.

[hitite]

The Turks did suffer on the way out of the Balkans but what were they doing there in the first place?

I vote this question of the year.

Here's another question as thought provoking as yours Joseph. What were the Armenians doing in Eastern Turkey in the first place?????? See I can be as clever as you are.

[Joseph]

I vote this question of the year.

Here's another question as thought provoking as yours Joseph. What were the Armenians doing in Eastern Turkey in the first place?????? See I can be as clever as you are.

The Armenians were living in Anatolia for thousands of years prior to the Turkic arrival and this is where they developed into a nation from various remnants of the Hittites (Urartu), your namesake. (Please don't tell me you give any credance to Ataturk's "Sun Theory")

The Turks came to the Balkans as conquerors and lorded it over (usually through divide and conquer, subjugation, forced assimilation and conversion, janissary system, brutal taxation, etc. ),the people who were residing there (Slavs and Greeks:aka Dhimmis). Naturally after a period of time, the subject nationalities chose to rule over their own nations/homelands and rid themselves of their Turkish overlords and this took centuries to develop, this after the rise of nationalism and a general malaise that lasted several centuries in the region. The Slavic nations used various methods to do this and one of them was of course to dislodge and massacre Turks and others who idenified with the Turks/Muslims.

Simply put, the Ottoman Empire was expantionist (though not unlike any other empire at the time) and was fine as long as you converted to Islam. This is explains why they were in the Balkans in the first place.

[Joseph]

The Armenians were living in Anatolia for thousands of years prior to the Turkic arrival and this is where they developed into a nation from various remnants of the Hittites (Urartu), your namesake. (Please don't tell me you give any credance to Ataturk's "Sun Theory")

The Turks came to the Balkans as conquerors and lorded it over (usually through divide and conquer, subjugation, forced assimilation and conversion, janissary system, brutal taxation, etc. ),the people who were residing there (Slavs and Greeks:aka Dhimmis). Naturally after a period of time, the subject nationalities chose to rule over their own nations/homelands and rid themselves of their Turkish overlords and this took centuries to develop, this after the rise of nationalism and a general malaise that lasted several centuries in the region. The Slavic nations used various methods to do this and one of them was of course to dislodge and massacre Turks and others who idenified with the Turks/Muslims.

Simply put, the Ottoman Empire was expantionist (though not unlike any other empire at the time) and was fine as long as you converted to Islam. This is explains why they were in the Balkans in the first place.

In all fairness, the Russian Empire is equally guilty of doing many of the same things the Ottomans have done. But then again I read constant complaining by Turks of Russian intentions, deeds, etc. but never any self-criticism.

[TurQ]

Joseph

I understand how differently we evaluate history.

But despite this difference I have to point out that the two statements(often used by Balkanic Christians as well) is totally inconsistent.

If (1) is true then (2) can not be true, cause after 5 centuries of supposedly
forced assimilation or conversion, today we would not see any Serb Greek Romanian or even Hungarian existed. I dont think any nation on earth would ever resist such a brutal policy of assimilation and forced conversion. The Serbs often say they were protected by "Lord" and saved their culture.



[/B]

(1)The Turks came to the Balkans as conquerors and lorded it over (usually through divide and conquer, subjugation, forced assimilation and conversion, janissary system, brutal taxation, etc. ),the people who were residing there (Slavs and Greeks:aka Dhimmis).

(2) Naturally after a period of time, the subject nationalities chose to rule over their own nations/homelands and rid themselves of their Turkish overlords and this took centuries to develop, this after the rise of nationalism and a general malaise that lasted several centuries in the region. The Slavic nations used various methods to do this and one of them was of course to dislodge and massacre Turks and others who idenified with the Turks/Muslims.

.

But the reality is totally different, up until the Russian PanOrthodox and Pan Slavic policy towards Balkans, those people lived happily, and nobody can deny the fact that Orthodox Religon has been saved from Catholic agression by the Ottomans,and if today non-Russian Orthodoxy exists thats primarily is the result of Ottoman rule in the Balkans and Anatolia.

Majority of the conversions happened among Pomaks, Bosnians and Albaninans. Even today 25% of Albania is Christian. I wont even mention Lobenon and its very diverse heritage.

And you know very well about the Armenian religous history, apart from 1915(ok lets also add 1890 ) events, was there such problems that you have mentioned? If there were 900 years of systematic conversion policy do you think you would see any Christian Armenian today on earth?

And if there were systematic conversion policy would Fatih Sultan Mehmet ever make Armenian Partriach as the official representative of Armenian nation and gave him the offocial status in the state?

[gokhan]

More protests are on the way.

You will be seeing more and more protests in the future.I was at the Times Square on 04/23.
Next year this event will be much bigger,and will be supported by pics and brochures. This protest was terriby organized and made a lot of Turks angry including me.But it was first so second is going to be bigger and better.

About the protest permits; You can apply and get from the city you live in. Very easy this is called democratical right of the voices.Do not think that, New York allows Armenian protests since they belive that it happened.This is what they are required by laws.

We have been silent so far but cheap politicians started making it look like real therefore our biggest fight is going to be against them not the Armenians.

They do not even know about what they approve. They do not even care. They are after votes and a victory, won like this , I am sure that , will not satisfy most intellectual Armenians.

You should encourage Armenian Gov. to open archives like Turkish Govt. did so that world historians can decide who killed by who and how many not the dirty politicians,who work for couple of useless votes.

Do not forget ASALA made a big mistake by killing Turkish diplomats from 73 to 86 around the world including in the U.S. Next protest you will see their pics and posters like " Armenian Terrorists kills in the U.S. "

Plus do not forget until the end of 2006 every single U.S citizen will know that Armenian constituion states that Eastern part of Turkey belongs to them.

Bad moves confused:

[Joseph]

You will be seeing more and more protests in the future.I was at the Times Square on 04/23.
Next year this event will be much bigger,and will be supported by pics and brochures. This protest was terriby organized and made a lot of Turks angry including me.But it was first so second is going to be bigger and better.

About the protest permits; You can apply and get from the city you live in. Very easy this is called democratical right of the voices.Do not think that, New York allows Armenian protests since they belive that it happened.This is what they are required by laws.

We have been silent so far but cheap politicians started making it look like real therefore our biggest fight is going to be against them not the Armenians.

They do not even know about what they approve. They do not even care. They are after votes and a victory, won like this , I am sure that , will not satisfy most intellectual Armenians.

You should encourage Armenian Gov. to open archives like Turkish Govt. did so that world historians can decide who killed by who and how many not the dirty politicians,who work for couple of useless votes.

Do not forget ASALA made a big mistake by killing Turkish diplomats from 73 to 86 around the world including in the U.S. Next protest you will see their pics and posters like " Armenian Terrorists kills in the U.S. "

Plus do not forget until the end of 2006 every single U.S citizen will know that Armenian constituion states that Eastern part of Turkey belongs to them.

Bad moves confused:

I encourage the Turks to have more protests. The bring nothing but negative publicity to their cause.

[gokhan]

Joseph we do not encourage from you but thanks anyway , we like challanges. History proves that.