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**Kharpert** · 10-14-2006, 01:51 AM

I'm going to be very blunt about this.

I'm touched that you have 3 Armenian friends and are concerned about fighting against racism. But keep in mind this is the internet; your personal life isn't of anyone's concern, and a good portion of the forum is not going to believe you anyway. Most of us pride ourselves on educating ourselves about the Armenian Genocide and you've a lot of nerve calling us ignorant. Most of the members on this forum, Armenian and Turkish alike, are very well versed about 1915.

We invite YOU to open the history book, and tell us where we are wrong. We'll be happy to discuss it with you.

To tie this up, you've posted in the wrong forum. You are looking for General Discussions.

**The_Facts** · 10-14-2006, 08:12 AM

@Kharpert

Cool... Sorry but i like only 1 sentence of you. It was "we will be happy to discuss".......Because it was the only one objective one...

And, dont worry i'm not discussing that stuff only in "cyber places" like chats, forums or smth like that. I do everything what is social in public, in press and moreover i do/did/will do objectively and logically..

So..i care ur invitation about discussing...

I do not care people's religion, skin color, language or country...Human means personality for me...

And so, if anyone is like me, thinks like me here...I can discuss with him/her...

**Hovik** · 10-14-2006, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by The_Facts

At first hi all...

I'm from Turkiye and i'm a Turkish and on the other hand i'm not a racist! Because i respect myself at first... anyway... I love all the people on earth WHO IS OBJECTIVE and HONEST.. I ve 3 armenian friends... and we love eachother, we are understanding eachother...you know why? because we both all have a brain to think

)) and + some intelligence...Believe me its not so difficult, you can try it

)

On the other hand; its really so easy to say ""oh hell armenian"" or ""oh bla bla bla""....it is really easy to swear or LIE (like EU and little dolls do always)...

and by the way i think you know that too; if there would be a war in theese days between Turkiye and armenia so we all know that who will be the winner....so theese are realities...i dont say that war is good....i hate war. but of course both armenians and all the world knows that who will win...

so what do you wanna do? if you still insist on so called genocide why you never open and read some REAL historical books? why u always close your eyes and just say "bla bla bla" since a lot of years...why?

Well...i leave yourself with your racist and nationalist speeches...Satisfy yourself in your little world...

Realities do not hear you ....

Have you ever try to act as a human and objectively?

First of all you talk about brotherhood and all that, and on the next line tell us your country could crush ours... How is that supposed to make us want to listen to you?

Your arrogance and petty threats are not accepted here. You'd have been wiser to recall that Azerbaijan was (by measure of material wealth, resources and men) favored to win the war they started... It just confirms that talk is cheap, numbers are cheap... it's what happens on the battlefield that matters. Don't forget that and don't come in here pissing from the mouth.

Now that we've covered that - 2 things for you: a statement and a demand.

Statement: on "satisfying ourselves in our little world", remember that this is bigger than ourselves or little anythings... it's about the whole world. Another How many Genocides have happened in the last 100 years? however many is TOO many, and it's up to the entire world to take measures to prevent them from happening in the future. Look whats happening in Darfur? Do you care?

This is why countless historians and nations have recognized and documented the Armenian Genocide? Political you say! Damn right it is! But it's also personal... Germany was a major accomplice in the Armenian Genocide, they've admitted it (much to Turkish dismay) and made efforts to reconcile with Armenians. Kurds last year declared the reality of the Armenian Genocide and even apologized for their role in that event. What do they have to gain? Nothing but a clear national conscience... This week Orhan Pamuk was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, the first Turk to ever win the prize. Call him what you want, but he stood up for what he believed in and has found great success as a result.

Now for the demand:

Since you don't think we've read any books, we are going make you put either your money or your foot where your mouth is...

Please submit a full list of the credible books you've read on the Armenian Genocide in the next 48 hours or I will happily ban you from this forum and you will naturally look extremely foolish...

**Hovik** · 10-14-2006, 06:28 PM

List of the books I've read on the Ottoman Empire

Daniel Goffman. The Ottoman Empire and Early Modern Europe. Cambridge Univ. Press, 2002.

Donald Quataert. The Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922, Cambridge Univ Press, 2000.

Colin Imber. The Ottoman Empire, 1300-1650: The Structure of Power, Palgrave Macmillan, 2002.

Leslie Peirce. The Imperial Harem. Oxford Univ Press, 1993.

Peter Golden , "The World of the Steppes" from his An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples: Ethnogenesis and State-Formation in Medieval and Early Modern Eurasia and the Middle East. Study guide for Golden .

J. J. Saunders , "The Turkish Eruption" from his History of Medieval Islam. Study guide for Saunders .

Robert Marshall , Selections, from his Storm from the East: From Genghis Khan to Khubilai Khan, Univ of California Press, 1993.

Hulegu's Campaign: a map of this Mongol campaign through the Middle East. Study guide for Marshall

Claude Cahen , "The Birth of Turkey" from his Pre-Ottoman Turkey. Study guide for Cahen

Halil Inalcik , "The Question of the Emergence of the Ottoman State," in International Journal of Turkish Studies, II/1980. Study guide for Inalcik .

Rudi Lindner , "The Tent of Osman, The House of Osman," from his Nomads and Ottomans . Study guide for Lindner .

S. A. M Adshead , "Tamerlane and the Global Arsenal, 1370-1405" from his Central Asia in World History. Study guide for Adshead .

Halil Inalcik , "The Conquest of Edirne (1361)," in Archivum Ottomanicum, III/1971, Study guide for Inalcik .

Peter Sugar , "The Early History and the Establishment of the Ottomans in Europe," from his Southeastern Europe Under Ottoman Rule, 1354-1804. Study guide for Sugar .

Donald Nicol , "Constantine XI and Mehmed II: the Fall of Constantinople 1448-53," from his Last Centuries of Byzantium. Study guide for Nicol

Barnette Miller , "The Curriculum," from her The Palace School of Muhammad the Conqueror . Study guide for Miller .

Halil Inalcik , "The Hub of the City: The Bedestan in Istanbul," International Journal of Turkish Studies, I/1 1979-80. Study guide for Inalcik .

Halil Inalcik , "The Policy of Mehmed II Toward the Greek Population of Istanbul and the Byzantine Buildings of the City," Dumbarton Oaks Papers, vol. 23-25/1969-1970. Study guide for Inalcik .

Halil Inalcik , "The Ottoman Economic Mind and Aspects of the Ottoman Economy," M. A. Cook (ed) Studies in the Economic History of the Middle East. Study guide for Inalcik .

Cornell Fleischer , "Between the Lines: Realities of Scribal Life in the Sixteenth Century," in Colin Heywood and Colin Imber (eds), Studies in Ottoman History in Honour of Professor V. L. Menage. Study guide for Fleischer .

Halil Inalcik , "Sultan Suleyman: The Man and the Statesman," in Gilles Veinstein (ed), Soliman le magnifique et son temps. Study guide for Inalcik .

Alan Fisher , "Suleyman and His Sons," in Gilles Veinstein (ed), Soliman le magnifique et son temps. Study guide for Fisher .

Svat Soucek , "The Ottomans and Their Rivals: Galleys and Galleons, Portolan Charts and Isolarii," from his Piri Reis & Turkish Mapmaking After Columbus: The Khalili Portolan Atlas, Nour Foundation, 1995.

David Morgan , "Shah Isma'il and the Establishment of Shi'ism" from his Medieval Persia: 1040-1797, on the WEB. Study guide for Morgan .

Rhoads Murphey , "Suleyman's Eastern Policy," in Halil Inalcik and Cemal Kafadar (eds), Suleyman the Second and His Time, on the WEB. Study guide for Murphey .

Jean-Louis Bacque-Grammont , "The Eastern Policy of Suleyman the Magnificent 1520-1533," in Halil Inalcik and Cemal Kafadar (eds), Suleyman the Second and His Time, on the WEB. Study guide for Bacque-Grammont .

Said Amir Arjomand , "The Shadow of God on Earth: The Ethos of Persian Patrimonialism," from his The Shadow of God and the Hidden Imam: Religion, Political Order, and Societal Change in Shi'ite Iran from the Beginning to 1890, on the WEB. Study guide for Arjomand .

Leslie Peirce, The Ottoman Harem

Ilber Ortayli , "The Problem of Nationalities in the Ottoman Empire Following the Second Siege of Vienna," in Das Osmanische Reich und Europa 1683 bis 1789. Study guide for Ortayli .

Avigdor Levy , "The Structure of the Jewish Community" in his The Jews of the Ottoman Empire. Study guide for Levy .
Halil Inalcik , "The Ottoman Decline and its Effect Upon the Reaya," in Henrik Birnbaum and Speros Vryonis, Jr. (eds), Aspects of the Balkans: Continuity and Change . Study guide for Inalcik .

Karen Barkey , "The Context of the Seventeenth Century," in her Bandits and Bureaucrats: The Ottoman Route to State Centralization. Study guide for Barkey .

Bernard Lewis , "The Impact of the West," from his The Emergence of Modern Turkey . Study guide for Lewis .
Niyazi Berkes , "Foundations of a Secular State," from his The Development of Secularism in Turkey. Study guide for Berkes .

Ilber Ortayli , "The Greeks and Ottoman Administration During the Tanzimat Period," in Charles Issawi and D. Gondicas (eds), The Greeks in the Ottoman Empire, From the Tanzimat to the Young Turks (in press, not in our library). Study guide for Ortayli .

David Kushner , "Turkish Culture" from his The Rise of Turkish Nationalism, 1876-1908 . Study guide for Kushner.

Albert Hourani , "The Changing Balance of Power in the Eighteenth Century," from his A History of the Arab Peoples. Study guide for Hourani .

Roderic Davison, "The Advent of the Principle of Representation in the Government of the Ottoman Empire," in William R. Polk and Richard L. Chambers (eds), Beginnings of Modernization in the Middle East: The Nineteenth Century. Study guide for Davison .

Max Kortepeter , "American Liberalism Establishes Bases: Robert College and the American University of Beirut," in his The Ottoman Turks: Nomad Kingdom to World Empire.

Selim Deringil , " Long Live the Sultan! Symbolism and Power in the Hamidian Regime," chapter one of his The Well-Protected Domains: Ideology and the Legitimation of Power in the Ottoman Empire 1876-1909, London, 1998.

Aron Rodrigue , "The Alliance and the Emergence of Zionism in Turkey," from his French Jews, Turkish Jews: The Alliance Israelite Universelle and the Politics of Jewish Schooling in Turkey, 1860-1925. Study guide for Rodrigue.

Serif Mardin , "The Young Ottomans," from his The Genesis of Young Ottoman Thought: A Study in the Modernization of Turkish Political Ideas. Study guide for Mardin .

M. Sukru Hanioglu , "The Political Ideas of the Young Turks," from his The Young Turks in Opposition. Study guide for Hanioglu .

Arthur Goldschmidt , Jr., "The Roots of Arab Bitterness," from his A Concise History of the Middle East. Study guide for Goldschmidt .

Hugh Seton-Watson , "The Greeks and the 'Great Idea'," from his Nations and States: An Enquiry into the Origins of Nations and the Politics of Nationalism.

Kemal H. Karpat , "Some Observations on Jewish Immigration, Settlement and Growth of Population in Palestine under Turkish (Ottoman) rule, 1850-1914," in International Journal of Turkish Studies, Spring 2001, VII/1-2.

Ilber Ortayli , "Ottomanism and Zionism During the Second Constitutional Period 1908-1915" in Avigdor Levy (ed), The Jews of the Ottoman Empire. Study guide for Ortayli .

David Fromkin , "The Last Days of Old Europe," in his A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East. Study guide for Fromkin.

**Hovik** · 10-15-2006, 10:34 AM

Well, you obviously have insulted yourself and your intelligence.

Thread summary:
Turk tells Armenians "if you still insist on so called genocide why you never open and read some REAL historical books?"

So I ask the hypocrite to put his money (or foot) where his mouth is, and provide a list of books he's read on the subject. NOT to my suprise, he comes back with a big fat hoove in his mouth. Esh!

Read A book on the Genocide before you go running your mouth...

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