Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

German Officer and War Correspondent Talks About the Genocide in 1917

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • German Officer and War Correspondent Talks About the Genocide in 1917

    CURRENT HISTORY MAGAZINE [NOV. 1917]
    (Published by New York Times Company, Times Square, New York)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    GERMANY AND THE ARMENIAN ATROCITIES
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cowardice of the Policy That Permitted and Abetted the Crime Denounced by a German

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dr. Harry Sturmer, a former German army officer and war correspondent, has written a book entitled "Two Years in Constantinople," in which he describes the cruelties with which the Turks almost exterminated the Armenians, while German diplomats and military leaders looked on without a protest. Writing from Switzersight of the Armenians' sufferings changed his life.

    I HAVE spoken to Armenians who said to me: "Formerly Sultan Abdul Hamid massacred us from time to time by thousands. At stated intervals, in regular pogroms, we were turned over to the knives of the Kurds, and certainly suffered terribly. After that the Young Turks, at Adana, in 1909, showed they, too, could shed the blood of thousands of us. But since our present sufferings, rest assured we look with longing back upon the massacres perpetrated under the old regime. Now we have to complain not of a definite number of murdered people; now our whole race is slowly but surely being exterminated by the chauvinistic hatred of an apparently civilized, apparently modern, but, for that very reason, terribly dangerous Government. Now they are taking our women and children, who die on those long wearisome trips on foot that they have to make while being deported, or in the concentration camps without anything to eat. The few pitiful survivors of our people in the villages and cities of the interior, where the local authorities eagerly carry out the Central Government's orders, are then forcibly converted to Islamism, and our young girls are put into harems and houses of prostitution.

    "Now that the Young Turks find themselves bleeding white in a disastrous war, they are trying to right the balance of the races and permanently establish themselves as the predominant element in the country. That is why these are not merely abortive outbreaks, but calculated political measures against our people; and therefore we can hope for no mercy. Since Germany, weak and conscienceless, permits our extermination, if the war lasts mush longer the Armenian people will simply cease to exist. And so we now look back with regret to Abdul Hamid's times, terrible as they were."

    Was there ever any more terrific tragedy in the history of a race? And this was a race quite free of all illusions of nationalism, cognizant that it would be helpless crowded in between two great nations. The Armenians had felt no real impulse toward Russia until the Young Turks, whose comrades they had been in revolt against Abdul Hamid, Foully betrayed them. They had been completely loyal to their Osmanli citizenship, more so than any other element of the empire, with the exception of the Turks themselves.

    Torture of a Victim

    I believe I have in these few paragraphs sufficiently characterized the spirit animating this policy of extermination, as well as its results. I only wish to put in evidence one more incident, which affected me most because it was a matter of personal experience.

    One Summer's day in 1916, at about noon, my wife went alone to the Grand Rue de Pera to do some shopping. We lived only a few steps from Galata Serai, and daily could see the troops of unhappy Armenians enter the police of unhappy Armenians enter the police station under escort of the gendarmes. Eventually you get hardened even to such sad sights and come to regard them not as individual but as political misfortunes. But this time my wife returned after a few minuets, all a-tremble. She hadn't been able to go on. As she passed the "Caracol" she heard the sound of some one being tortured, muffled groans as of some animal in agony, half dead of pain. "An Armenian," was what a person standing at the entrance of the building told her.

    At that moment the crowd was driven away by a policeman.

    "If such things can be done in the bright light of day in the busiest part of the European city of Pera, then I wonder what they do to the poor Armenians in the uncivilized districts of the interior?" asked my wife. "If the Turks behave like wild beasts here in the capital, so that a woman can't go into the main street without meeting with this kind of terrible shock, then I can't go on living in this fearsome country."

    Then she gave utterance to her boundless indignation at what, for more than a year, she had seen whenever we went out on to the streets: "You are brutes, contemptible brutes, you Germans, to allow the Turks to do this. You have the country absolutely in hand. Cowardly brutes you are. and I'm never going to set foot in your accursed land again."

    At the moment when my wife, in her sorrow, indignation, and disgust at such cowardice, broke out into tears and flung at me her curse against my country, at that moment I mentally tore the ties that bound me to Germany. Truly, I had known enough for a long time.

    German Assurances Distrusted

    I remembered the conversations I had had with gentlemen from the German Embassy in Constantinople, and also with the American Ambassador, Morgenthay, about the Armenian question. I had never believed in the assurances, given out by the German Embassy, that it, the German Embassy, had done everything possible to stop the murderous persecutions of harmless Armenians, a long distance away from the front, who, from their very nature and social position, were in no position to meddle with political matters. I equally distrusted the German Embassy's assertion that it had done all it could to prevent the deported women and children -- deported, no doubt, for that very purpose -- from being allowed to perish. On the contrary, I gathered the impression that the German Government's conduct in the Armenian matter was controlled by a mixture of motives -- on the one hand, cowardice and lack of conscience; on the other, by shortsighted stupidity.

    The American Ambassador, who warmly espoused the Armenian case, naturally preserved a good deal of reserve when talking to a German journalists like myself, and would not give his real opinion of the conduct of his German colleague. Nevertheless, in my many conversations with this sympathetic person, who has done so much for humanity in Turkey, I heard nothing which would tend to destroy my impression of the German Embassy's conduct, and yet I gave some indication of my impression during my conversations with Mr. Morgenthau.

    Germany's attitude have evidence of the most shameless cowardice, I have said. We certainly had sufficient control of the Turkish Government in military, financial, and political matters to be able at least to force it to observe the most elementary rules of humanity. Enver, no less than Talaat, chiefly responsible for the Armenian persecutions in his capacity as Minister of the Interior and practical dictator, would have had no choice but to follow Germany unconditionally, once the alliance and war were entered into. They would have accepted an order to stop the Armenian massacres with gnashing of teeth, but unquestioningly, nevertheless. * * * I had been witness of the plight of a German lady married to an Armenian deported embolic with many others, who came daily to the embassy antechamber, weeping and asking for help. Yet the embassy always turned a deaf ear to her plea.

    Even the Turks laughed at us for this boundless exhibition of cowardice; they said that the Russian Government, in spite of the abrogation of the capitulation would, in Germany's position, surely have made happened to a poor Russian Jew. Turks generally, in spite of their accustomed formal amiability, let me feel their contempt for our boundless lack of backbone.

    German Diplomats Blamed

    I can't help imagining that, in spite of pretty official speeches, which I often heard at the German Embassy about the Armenian problem, the diplomats at bottom had very little interest in the salvation of this people. How do I come to make such a frightful charge? I was often at the German Embassy when the Armenian Patriarch, after some particularly terrible attack upon his people, came with tears in his eyes, and begged for help. And I never could discern anything in the exited hurrying hither and thither of our diplomats except anxiety to preserve German prestige and wounded vanity, but never a worry for the fate of the Armenia people. I time and again hears from German lips from all sorts of individuals, from the lowest to the highest, expressions of hatred, based on absolute misunderstanding of the facts, against the Armenians, unconsidered repatriations.

    And, unfortunately, the fact has been established by nurses and doctors returning from the interior that German officers, more eager than some of the Turkish officials of local districts, who hated to carry out the institutions of the Committee of Union and Progress, lightheartedly took part in the extermination and expulsion of the Armenians. A well known instance, and one sufficiently established German officers who came to a little village in further Asia Minor, where some Armenians had taken refuge in the interior of a house, refusing to be driven away like animals. Guns had been placed in position to drive them out of their shelter. But no Turks were to be found with the courage to carry out orders and fire on women and children. These German officers, then, without any orders, took up the matter as a sporting affair, and seized the occasion to show their skill in artillery practice. Certainly such shameful occurrences were not talking place daily, but they exactly fit in with the spirit which inspired the utterances of dozens of highly educated, highly placed Germans -- not military people -- with regard to the Armenians.

    Just such a case, however, of criminal interference by military persons, in the interior of Anatolia, was officially brought to the attention of the embassy. At that time Count wolff-Metternich happened to be the German Ambassador, a man who, in spite of his years, and in contrast to Freiherr von Wangenheim, victim of a weak and criminal optimism and pro-Turk blindness, now and then dared to oppose the Turkish Government. In the present instance he reported the matter to Germany; whereupon this very crime which he reported was made the pretext for his dismissal. * * *

    Policy Called Stupid

    And, finally, it was a shortsighted piece of stupidity on the part of our officials to stand by and witness the extermination of the Armenians without raising a finger to interfere. For the rising tide of Turkish chauvinism eventually had to be faced by our Government. Nobody with any foresight at all could have had a moment's doubt, after the summer of 1915, that Turkey would only stick to us as long as she absolutely needed our military and financial help; that were would be no room for us in a completely victorious entirely Turkish Turkey; that we wouldn't even have a commercial chance. Nevertheless, we allowed a large element of the population, 1,500,000 souls, to be wiped out; an element which was progressive, possessed of a European outlook, intellectually adaptable, without a spark of chauvinism or fanaticism, disposed to be our friend. We simply didn't worry at all about this people, which is bound, eventually, to recover from its fearful misfortunes, and will hereafter be our deadliest in sympathy with German aims.

    The mixture of "consciencelessness," cowardice, and blindness displayed by our Government in the Armenian matter, alone would suffice to undermine the loyalty of any thinking human being who believes in humanity and civilization. Not every German will light-heatedly, like those diplomats of Pera, face the shame of having history note that the refinedly cruel extermination of a civilized and worthy people coincided with the period of Germany's hegemony in Turkey.

    I frequently reported home to my newspaper matter concerning the Armenians persecutions and the fact that they were due to a guiding spirit of bestial Young Turk chauvinism. The Foreign Office followed these reports with interest. But I never saw any evidence in my newspaper that my expositions of the situation were bearing fruit.

    Finally, at the time my wife, in such dramatic fashion, flung her curse in Germany's teeth, I resolved no longer to represent my newspaper. I have to thank the sufferings of those poor massacred and tortured Armenians for my spiritual and moral-political enfranchisement.

  • #2
    look these statements dont prove anything, as i said no one says that the Armenians didnt suffer even the the anti AG historians they admit up to 800.000 deaths.

    There are also Turkish people who spoke of these times that armenians lost themselves with dreams of great armenia and turned against all muslims.

    History is written and decided by several kinds of sources : Witnesses or newspaper articles are some of them, but these documents are considered 2nd class against documents like population records or like economic budgets.


    About destruction of the ottoman archives: everyone here knows that the ottomon archives were searched to the limit after the invasion of winning forces. Nothing not a single clue could be found other then witnesses (whic dont refute the turkish argument).

    Could these documents be destroyed? Of course you can always live with the paranoia that they were, which is sth. very unlikely- simply ottoman wasnt such a perfectly organized country to make such an act and not live a single clue.

    Even if they are destroyed, turkey doesnt support its claims by saying there is no document proving AG, they say there are documents proving that this event wasnt a genocide. And no one discusses the reality of these documents they are for sure authentic.

    Anyway i read that anti AG propoganda is forbidden in this forum, but of course it is inevitable. Afterall i think you guys dont plan to sit here and talk about how turkish killed you and they are still guilty because they deny it..

    But my intention isnt to prove anything - it is anyway not possible.

    What i want you to see is Turkish people say this event is not a genocide not out of stupidity there is a logical argument behind it. We dont want this event to be covered under the title of centries first genocide and not discuss what happened within.

    Comment


    • #3
      None of what your saying refutes that a Genocide occured. It merely (1) makes excuses, and (2) assumes that facts can only be proven by written record. If that were true, it could be said the Holocaust didn't happen, because there is no written record of an order to exterminate all Jews.

      The evidence when taken all together establishes without doubt that what happened was a systematically organized plan to cleanse the land of all Armenian people so as to once and for all solve the Armenian problem. This is why so many genocide historians, academicians, universities, and academic organizations have declared that it was a Genocide without doubt.

      And we're not saying that Turks are stupid, we're saying they are ignorant on this subject. And that is something you cannot seriously refute. When your government refuses to teach you anything about Armenians, except sometimes to teach you that they were a treacherous minority that stabbed your ancestors in the back, then obviously you cannot be equipped to rationally and objectively discuss this matter.

      Comment


      • #4
        anyway take the mirror and also look at yourselves to see if you are brainwashed or not? before critisizing others do you also critisize yourselves?
        Do you have a single open space in your minds to even take into consideration that maybe we are right you are wrong?

        I have that space...


        The article Hovik forwarded from a Turkish newspaper is really great. A turkish historian discovered the black book mentioning 900.000 to be relocated.

        He also said it is as stupid to say that he got wrong information the numbers arent so high as much as to say he decreased the numbers out of guilt.

        For example this is a written evidence together with the population records of Ottomon archives.

        The population records armenians came up with were fake.

        These proofs both harm the 1.5millionist armenians and 50thousandist turkish.

        anyway as expected i am tired of these discussions, like you i am sure, you say i am brainwashed i say you are.

        Why i dont except the organizations who accepted as genocide. Because from the language already they hate turkishnes. They claim things like turkish came thousand years ago ruining beautifull civilizations. I dont give value to claims of these.

        It is a evident fact throughout everyone used this event for their own purposes, i dont believe them.

        Finally if you want Turkey to accept AG only way is open discussion, i said before if documents are destroyed this can also be shown, afterall the super organized nazis also tried to destroy everything. For me put yourself into my position ofcourse i wont be convinced with the sources you showed as you wont be convinced with mein.

        I will make one final remark armenia and turkey should be ally and friends if we want the best for our countries, we share the same heritage ,same geography. Telling you again -> armenians are full of hatred not us.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hotinko, the issue of numbers that you discuss is an irrelevant one. If you have space in your head to accept another viewpoint, then you'll understand why the numbers don't matter. It could have been 800,000 or 1.5 million. Either way, it was a Genocide, because the Turkish authorities knew, or they should have known, that when they killed the Armenian males and drove the remaining women, children and elderly from throughout all of Anatolia on foot through hundreds and thousands of miles of harsh terrain with no food, water or adequate shelter, and no protection from bandits or the Turkish soldiers themselves, that they people would surely die. What's even more proof is that the destinations to which these people were sent had nothing to sustain life. Would you be stupid enough to believe that you can march a person on foot through the desert for 100s of miles with no food or water for weeks and months to a destination with nothing, and that person is going to survive? They weren't stupid. They knew what they were doing. And you're not stupid either. You also know what you are doing.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hotinko
            I will make one final remark armenia and turkey should be ally and friends if we want the best for our countries, we share the same heritage ,same geography. Telling you again -> armenians are full of hatred not us.
            Your generation is in charge of our hatred. You can perpetuate it by continuing to perpetuate a lie and close borders and deny diplomacy and dialog, or you can change all of that. The ball is not in our court. The Armenian government has set no conditions whatsoever on engaging in diplomatic relations with Turkey. It is Turkey that keeps the border closed and dialog shut.

            Comment


            • #7
              For me i still think these discussions wont prevail but i will tell my opinion anyway. I want to accept armenian genocide (if there is), but first i want to believe it - i hope you understand this. And it seems very diffucult anyway without a discussion as i mentioned (like erdogans offer)...


              The numbers are important, first of all it was a period 2.5million turkish died. The ottoman empire was giving its life or death fight so their eyes were black... The stupid german admirer Envers plans took ottoman to their 100 years late destruction (at least the result is good now there is turkey not aliman or huseyinman). This person caused so many death including the example i have given: The 100.000 army he sent to east to realize his panturkist plans froze in the mountains. Their corpses are still there.



              You can never go against the fact armenians wanted their freedom, they wanted to establish great armenia, after all the destruction of ottoman came because of this. 200-500 years ago people maybe were happy, but the world changed nationalism came, ottoman as it didnt except technology also didnt accept these.

              All balcans got their freedom same way, russian interfere, protection of minority, massacre muslim, massacre christian. And the ottoman army fought against these.

              It was the same scenario the Russian greed to even reach mediterrian sea.
              There are documents in goverment archives of armenian organization in the 7 cities to create riot with the approach of russian army.

              So what happened they decided remove the Armenians from the region, without the russian occupiance the armenians wouldnt be able to cause harm (in ottoman empires point of view, from armenian point of view it is fighting for freedom).

              Of course they were very much aware that many deaths would occur, but death was everywhere in the country. And the main thing is for me the intention wasnt exterminating which is genocide, the intention was to protect ottoman state, they didnt want to eradicate armenians, but they accepted the deaths to come with this strategy. If historians decide this is a genocide ok.

              But for me genocide means to kill armenians only because they are armenians or christian. The conditions were much different then this. Your goverment and france and europe wants to equilize with jewish jenocide, as the turkish people ofcourse we will never accept this.

              Anyway i am mostly angry because armenians are pleaing to european countries to accept this event as a genocide make monuments. Did these ever apoligize for the harm they gave to humans? Did england apologize for opium wars i wonder (did they?) or france for colonization (third class human countries) they even teach the benefits of it. Or america did they ever accept they exterminated all indians.

              Now turkey is on the way again to be the dog of america. For me eu path is ruined, the Erdogan goverment lost all respect, the army started to critisize again, militarist parties are on the way.

              If we as the countries of the region are enemies to each other including azerbeycan ( ok ignore iran that is ofcourse not a nice friend ) this is the outcome.

              Comment


              • #8
                The main reoson of closed borders is azerbeycan you know this. But i am not knowledged in this issue, can you explain why armenia invaded azerbeycan?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hotinko
                  The main reoson of closed borders is azerbeycan you know this. But i am not knowledged in this issue, can you explain why armenia invaded azerbeycan?
                  Maybe if Azerbaijan didn't discriminate against Karabagh and it's people, Armenia wouldn't have. It didn't look like they cared much about Karabagh when they had it, since they abandoned it completely (perhaps because of its predominantly Armenian population? ) .. all of a sudden, now that it's in the hands of people who actually do care, everyone's concerned about Karabagh.. including Turkey. ha ha.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HAN
                    By the way most Armenians were taken to the nearest station to their final destination by train.

                    train what? Definitely not my great grandmother or anyone from her town. Did you just watch a fiction movie on the Armenian genocide or something? How about planes? American Airlines, British Airways, any of that? And where exactly was this "final destination" ? The desert! Nevermind, I don't think they had any airports in the desert of Der Zor. Maybe they had train stations. Who knows..

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X