A Little More Respect to Each Other

[Emrah]

And by your logic I supose that the Europeans cannot be held account (or should even acknowledge or be apologetic) for any of the evils they inflicted upon the natives of the Americas, Africa, Australia and Asia because of all the nasty things the Mongols had done to other peoples at some time or another - eh?

So if we take the Turks and Armenians and compare them to White Americans (former masters) and Black Americans (former slaves) - considering their relative power positions in society and considering which group had commited abuses upon which other - whom do you might think might be the counterpart of the other?

Mongols are not claiming that they represent freedom of speech, humanity, and democracy. But Europeans do.

As for the white-black, Turkish-Armenian anology, you still insist on not understanding what I mean. Today in America, people are trying to bring white and black, they are not trying to feed the hate once existed between them. Why are you trying to irritate me or other people writing here by telling them they are foolish, insensitive, etc even without knowing who they really were, what their views of the world? Even your nick-name is offensive to some people. But, I am sure you chose it on purpose. Because, after all, you like to feed the hatred between us, don't you?

[1.5 million]

Mongols are not claiming that they represent freedom of speech, humanity, and democracy. But Europeans do.

You missed my point. And I see your point as irrelevant. Europeans may not be perfect (and I suscribe to the view that Eurpeans have been both responsible for some of the worlds greatest ills as well as its greatest triumphs...and I have much sorrow regarding the former) - but the overall value system is one that is evolving to a more humane, open and truthful approach. Democracy absolutely is the ideal as is freedom of speech. No one gets threatened with jail for "insulting Europeaness" when crtiquing the past. Anyway - my point concerns using unrelated events as justification for dispicable behavior. Turkey is the one guilty here. And BTW this web forum and this issue concerns recognition of the Armenian Genocide. (recognized past) Atrocities commited in Algeria - etc - have no bearing on this issue...no more then if I were discussing the issue of the ills of European slavery of Africans with a Muslim that I (as a Eurpean descendent) would be justified in claiming that the Muslim should be forbiden to speak of such things - that I won't acknowledge the crtiscsim nor will I be apoligetic - becase some Arab Muslims once held slaves or such - so obvliously I am off the hook...

As for the white-black, Turkish-Armenian anology, you still insist on not understanding what I mean. Today in America, people are trying to bring white and black, they are not trying to feed the hate once existed between them. Why are you trying to irritate me or other people writing here by telling them they are foolish, insensitive, etc even without knowing who they really were, what their views of the world? Even your nick-name is offensive to some people. But, I am sure you chose it on purpose. Because, after all, you like to feed the hatred between us, don't you?

I find it quite rich that a Turk would come to an Armenian Genocide recognition site/forum and deny the Genocide then attempt to claim that it is Armenians who are fanning hate. If you are offended by use of the term 1.5 million - then I suggest that you are an ignorant liar who is insensitve and a bit comic/foolish...

[Hovik]

Mongols are not claiming that they represent freedom of speech, humanity, and democracy. But Europeans do.

As for the white-black, Turkish-Armenian anology, you still insist on not understanding what I mean. Today in America, people are trying to bring white and black, they are not trying to feed the hate once existed between them. Why are you trying to irritate me or other people writing here by telling them they are foolish, insensitive, etc even without knowing who they really were, what their views of the world? Even your nick-name is offensive to some people. But, I am sure you chose it on purpose. Because, after all, you like to feed the hatred between us, don't you?

Go ask a black person if they are satisfied with their position in American society. Ask about their 'forty acres and a mule'...

Don't think that justice has been served completely, but unlike Turks, Whites have made an effort (however much) to compensate and move towards reconciliation - Turks have done NOTHING.

[phantom]

I think there are lots of Turks who don't have hatred for Armenians, and maybe a few who do. That's because most Turks have no knowledge about Armenians, except maybe a few paragraphs from history class explaining that we were a minority that supposedly stabbed the Turks in the back and were deported. If that's all you learn, which is the case, why would you have any hate? What's there to hate?

Armenians on the other hand grow up with the knowledge that their ancestors were in fact slaughtered by Turks, and today Turks either know nothing about it, or they parrot the official Turkish government position, which is that we stabbed you in the back. How should we feel knowing this? Do you think it brings us warm feelings when Turks come here and try to teach us why it wasn't a Genocide? Do you think it is heartwarming to hear a Turk like you say that we should open dialog between our peoples in one breath and deny what our ancestors suffered in another breath? It doesn't work. There are a few Turks who give us some hope that the Turkish people have the capacity to learn and acknowledge what really happened, but for the most part, we see only negative results from Turkey.

[Yavrum]

Mongols are not claiming that they represent freedom of speech, humanity, and democracy. But Europeans do.

As for the white-black, Turkish-Armenian anology, you still insist on not understanding what I mean. Today in America, people are trying to bring white and black, they are not trying to feed the hate once existed between them. Why are you trying to irritate me or other people writing here by telling them they are foolish, insensitive, etc even without knowing who they really were, what their views of the world? Even your nick-name is offensive to some people. But, I am sure you chose it on purpose. Because, after all, you like to feed the hatred between us, don't you?

Poor Emrah - no one is trying to feed hatred, that's just your government's propoganda speaking from you. What we are trying to do is to get the Turkish people to admit to the past. In your black-white analogy, that is exactly what happened between the government policies and the black people - how could they heal if the government refused to admit they had enslaved them for many years??? The healing cannot begin until Turkey admits their part in the genocide/massacre.

[Emrah]

The healing cannot begin until Turkey admits their part in the genocide/massacre.

I do not support Turkish government’s position on many issues, including Armenian and European Union issues. Especially, I find this AKP government very dangerous for secularism in Turkey. A new head of republic will be chosen this May by this parliament whose majority is AKP, an islamic party. Then, we will all see how Turkey will go back more and more unfortunately, which I believe also very bad for Armenia. Here are my thoughts on what Turkey should do about Armenian issue as well as other important matters:

Turkish Grand National Assembly should issue a resolution which clearly says that Turkey is very sorry for the killings of Armenians during WWI and send personal apology to those who have lost his ancestors in these events. But, they should state that these murders have nothing to do with the new republic or Turkish people. They should state that thousands of Turkish people had died during these events also and request Armenian goverment to issue a declaration which says they are sorry for the deaths of Turkish people too. If Armeanians do that, then Turkey should open its borders with Armenia, should allow them to join NATO, etc and start economic relations. A monument which will remind two nations these terrible events should be built both in Turkey and Armenia. Young Turks should be taught about these events in the past. I have no problem with recognizing the killings of Armenians in 1915. But, I do have a problem when some of you guys claim that the new Turkish republic and Turkish nation is responsible for the killings of your ancestors. I do have a problem when an Armenian looks at me as if I have personally killed his ancestors. I do have a problem when Armenian lobby organizes demonstrations during which people shout as we are murderers.

If you claim that 1915 killings make Turkish nation and Turkey similar to Germany, then my love to the republic will force me to defend the new Turkish republic whatever the cost is. Even the cost is EU membership, because these events happened in 1915, and Kemal Ataturk formed the new republic in 1923, i.e., 8 years later! He also deported the last sultan and all his family from the country, because he insisted that Turkey was not continuation of Ottoman Empire. He changed the Arab alphabet to Latin alphabet so that everyone can read and write. He gave the Turkish women the right to take part in policitical and economical life. He said “Peace at home, peace in the world” and did not make war with any country after Independence War in 1922. It is not easy to do the things he did after an empire like Ottomans ruled these lands for centuries. People were not ready for democracy, even today we are not 100 % ready for democracy, because poor, uneducated people are so easily influenced by Islamic groups or extreme nationalists to vote for AKP or MHP, who wants to return back to Ottoman times.

As for the EU, Turkey should withdraw its EU candidacy since EU has started to show its political face against us. We should stop the negotiations immediately and insist on the recognition of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. There is an economic ambargo on this region for nearly 40 years. But, we should continue to pass laws that will enhance freedom of speech, not for EU, but for own people. This will be a challenge, but we can succeed it.

Turkey should also improve the economic situation in Eastern Anatolia, where most of our Kurdish citizens live. The geographical conditions are though there, which is responsible for some part of the poverty, but the other part is due to the silly politics by extreme nationalist like MHP.

Finally, Turkey should improve its economic relations with Russia, China and India. We should get out of Customs Union Agreement with Europe which costs us 20 billion $ each year. Why are we giving Europe economic privilieges? That Europe used us during cold war years against USSR and then threw us away when the war was over. We have a very young generation, necessary know-how, and a state tradition which goes past to more than a thousand year. The future is with us, not with old Europe.

As for the Armenian people, believe me that Turkish nation is not hostile. Just go to a small village in Anatolia and ask for a cup of tea or water. They will host you like you are someone from their own family. They will share whatever they have with you. These people have suffered from poverty during Ottoman regime under harsh taxes for centuries. They do not know what is going on the world, I’m sure most of them even do not know Armenia or 1915 killings. But, they all know Ataturk. Even in my very small village, there is a photo of him with his finger showing forward and smiling. They love him since he gave respect and appreciation to what they do. We all show our respect to him on every November, 10th. All the cars stop on the roads, all the people stand up, even in their homes, for one minute in silence, to honor him at exactly 9:05 every November, 10. Exactly at the same time of his death.

I do believe that I have written on most of the issues. This will be my last post here because I believe that I have given the messages that I wanted to give. If you want to get my messages, you can get them. But, if you do not want to get them, then there is nothing that I can do anymore by writing here. Thank you guys. I hope life brings the best for you. Take care.

[phantom]

For the rest of us who remain, I want to say that it appears this is about as far as the most open-minded of the general Turkish population is willing to go. I don't include the ones who are truly educated on this issue, but the average Turkish person with the average or even above average Turkish education. So this is the most we should expect for now from 95% of the population.

I think he genuinely can't understand the difference between what happened to the Armenians and what happened to the Turks. He sees death as death and killing as killing. He doesn't understand that it is offensive to expect us to equate the differing experiences. He honestly beleives he is making a good gesture by agreeing to apologize for the Armenian deaths.

This is a truly uphill battle for all of us who know the truth about this issue.

[Yavrum]

For the rest of us who remain, I want to say that it appears this is about as far as the most open-minded of the general Turkish population is willing to go. I don't include the ones who are truly educated on this issue, but the average Turkish person with the average or even above average Turkish education. So this is the most we should expect for now from 95% of the population.

I think he genuinely can't understand the difference between what happened to the Armenians and what happened to the Turks. He sees death as death and killing as killing. He doesn't understand that it is offensive to expect us to equate the differing experiences. He honestly beleives he is making a good gesture by agreeing to apologize for the Armenian deaths.

This is a truly uphill battle for all of us who know the truth about this issue.

One point that disturbs me is his belief that Armenians today blame today's Turks. I don't. The only thing I blame them for is hiding the past and lying about it. That would be the government's fault. I hold no ill will towards any of the people. I believe this to be true of the Armenians I meet Stateside. I know many Armenians who go to Turkey to visit relatives, etc. The truth is, Armenians WANT to move on, but Turkey's denial will not let them. Plus their aggression towards the statehood of Armenia, blocking the borders, not recognizing Armenia, encouraging wars in Azerbaijan against Armenians, etc.

[1.5 million]

Emrah - you are a total lightweight - in addition to being an ignorant liar who is insensitve and a bit comical/foolish....good riddance - you obviously have no capacity whatsoever to look and see beyond the end of your own nose.

[Yavrum]

As an American, I find all these laws a little strange indeed. To get put in jail for speaking your mind is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Even the French law is odd, in my book. I can see having an official statment, but putting people in jail if they don't agree? Hello? Big Brother??? We in the States don't go for such things. That insults our individuality and freedom of speech.