A Little More Respect to Each Other

[1.5 million]

Hotinko - you are a total lightweight - in addition to being an ignorant liar who is insensitve and a bit comical/foolish....you obviously have no capacity whatsoever to look and see beyond the end of your own nose.

[hitite]

It can only change with friendly approach from armenia, not hatred and revenge calls.. (dont tell me armenia is friendly blalblalblalbalblal!!!)

Compared to the A.G. recognition hungry diaspora, you could say that Armenia proper is our kanka buddy.

[Joseph]

The insulting turkishness law (301) : similar laws exists in several european countries, in the Italian mother law there is the exact translation of the same law as it is in the turkish mother law.. Only difference in Turkey it is being used on every issue, the description of "insult" is not clear.. But dont forget every state (even the super humanistic europeans) also have similar laws.

In addition to this there is sooo many who want to insult turkey, and turkish people it takes more attention..

Why saying armenian genocide is an insult.. (first of all orhan pamuk and elif shafak is not in jail remember that) Because i also saw a few times here, you count till 1923 as genocide which includes indepedence war, which i take as a terrible insult.. In addition to that it is considered to be a lie so it is an insult.. What happens in armenia when you say there is no genocide? Dont you know the turkish journalist who stayed 3 months in prison?

So obviusly you jjust dont think much just jump on everything which is against turkey and which supports acceptence of AG..

The Turkish journalist you refer to is a genocide researcher that believes what befell Christians in the Ottoman Empire was genocide. He was unfortunately detained for supposedly smuggling rare books and resource materials out of a library.

[Joseph]

I think there are lots of Turks who don't have hatred for Armenians, and maybe a few who do. That's because most Turks have no knowledge about Armenians, except maybe a few paragraphs from history class explaining that we were a minority that supposedly stabbed the Turks in the back and were deported. If that's all you learn, which is the case, why would you have any hate? What's there to hate?

Armenians on the other hand grow up with the knowledge that their ancestors were in fact slaughtered by Turks, and today Turks either know nothing about it, or they parrot the official Turkish government position, which is that we stabbed you in the back. How should we feel knowing this? Do you think it brings us warm feelings when Turks come here and try to teach us why it wasn't a Genocide? Do you think it is heartwarming to hear a Turk like you say that we should open dialog between our peoples in one breath and deny what our ancestors suffered in another breath? It doesn't work. There are a few Turks who give us some hope that the Turkish people have the capacity to learn and acknowledge what really happened, but for the most part, we see only negative results from Turkey.

Good summary.

[Joseph]

This is a variation upon an old post.

For me, it is inconsequential whether Turks call it genocide or another name. What many Armenians realize on this board, and reading about recent events, is that I think there is a wilingness for is growing Turks to revisit history and look at the history in a critical way. We will probably never come to an agreement and it is an important step.


For Armenians:

1. Turks are not subhuman.
2. There are good Turks and bad Turks just like any other nation.
3. Whether we agree or not, Turks, by their frame of reference, suffered the dissolution of an empire and feel surrounded by hostile enemies or are at least told so (Serves Syndrome- it is also a way for the government to control the masses) from ery early in their education. They still have the feeling that people want to carve them up and are not trusting of outsiders and they feel ganged up on. Many see this a paranoia while Turks see this a caution. What happened to the Turks in the Balkans prior to WWI/ the independence movement of the Balkan people was tragic for them.
4. They see that there are Armenians with land claims and this is threatening to them
5. Just as there are some Turks today who deny the Genocide and have ancestors who took part in those events there are also Turks whose ancestors helped save their Armenians friends and neighbors and yet still deny the Genocide.
6. Turks do not learn very much about Armenians. Their textbooks which are uniform and government approved say very little and it is mostly negative. They hardly know us anymore if at all. Thus we are seen merely as guests in what is our original homeland.
7. When Turks come into contact with Armenians, it is usually the Istanbul Armenians (bolsahay) and they have varying degrees of outspokeness on the issue depending on how secure they feel - think of canaries in a cage.
8. The first that many Turks learn about the Genocide is when the travel outside of Turkey and suddenly see their people being accussed of something that most Turks know nothing about, something from the past they don't feel repsonsible for.
9. The ASALA did not help this issue. It may have alerted the world to the issue but it only hardened the offical position of Turkey and gave the Turkish authorities even more of an excuse to stonewall the issue.
10. Turks have just as much pride and love for their families as Armenians.
11. Most people do not like to focus on the negative events of their nations history. Nobody wants to re-visit a nightmare. Although I believe all humans/nations/races, etc. can at one time or another act as beasts, nobody will ever willingly admit that they are capable of this or even fathom such capability, especially a people from their region of the world.
12. The Turks are not the first or the last to commit a genocide. Genocide has most certainly happened since and will continue to happen because while human beings can demonstrate enormous acts of love and compassion so can we also commit acts so cloaked in hate and savagery. Many of the EU states who remind Turkey of Armenian Genocide had themselves comitted genocide at one time or another but it should also be noted that by and large, they openly discuss it and when they deny it they look petty and stupid.
13. Culturally Turks take a more collective view and are more oriented towards the group and Armenians are fiercely individualistic. Both traits have advantages and disadvantages. This is a very significant characteristic that should not be overlooked.
14. Turks tend to be very nationalistic and have a lot of pride in their country to the point or worship. This is a good and bad thing (great if you're nationalistic and horrible is you're a liberal)
15. Many Turks don't really care about the issue because it means nothing to them as they struggle to make it day to day.


For Turks:

1. Whether you agree it was genocide or not, Armenians were murdered and cast out of their homeland; the place where their language, church, and culture was born and a place where they lived for thousands of years and this is extremely traumatic. Many of our family structures were ripped apart or destroyed wholesale.
2. The overwhelming majority of Armenians did not commit treason against the Ottoman state. It should also be noted that in certain areas in the Empire things denigenerated to the point were Armenians had no choice but to be slaughtered or defend themselves and many were eventually killed anyway.
3. Armenians, Assyrians, and Anatolian Greeks became scapegoats during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. This is almost an inevitable consequence especially as reactionary and ultra-nationalist elements took control of the CUP.
4. Contrary to Turkish belief, all was not well in the Empire prior to the 1870's, at least if you were a relgious minority. It mostly depended on who was the Sultan at the time and how benevolent they were (an also on the disposition of local vali's and kamikams). Let's not forget that Armenians were dhimmis, paid three times the amount of taxes not including taxes that had to sometimes had to be paid to Kurdish brigands "for protection". Armenians were at best, second-class citizens and in the east, were generally robbed and harrassed with impunity. They were expected to be loyal (read: "servile") even under the worst harrasments.
5. Armenians are mercantile people and this has always produced jealousy and hatred among others, especially in Anatolia, while Turks and other Muslims were largely illiterate.
6. The vast majority of Armenians are not Dashnak of Hunchak. Most are apolitical. We may not love the Turks but we don't preach hate either.
7. The Armenians view the Russian as the lesser of two evils.
8. Armenians have just as much pride and love for their families as Turks.
9. Just because a Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 as the successor state to the Ottoman Empire, does not mean that the past ceases to exist or is suddenly erased or that some of those responsible did not take part in Ataturks government.
10. There are quite a few Turks who have Armenian grandmothers and other relatives whether they know it or not. The result of the Genocide produced thousands of orphans who were brought into Turkish families.
11. Armenians are not fanatical Christians. We take pride in our own church but as a cosmopolitan and mercantile people, have generally gotten along with Muslims and Jews and respect people of other religions. In the past we have had vibrant communities in such places as Amsterdam, Madras, Calcutta, Ulan Bator, Crimea, Isfahan, etc. Armenians get along just fine with Persians and Arabs.
12. Armenians have a right to be paranoid of Turkish intentions since any sign of pan-turanism is to them certain death as Armenians are seemingly in the way of such a syplitic ridden dream.
13. There are good Armenians and bad Armenians just like any other nation.


The emnity between Turks and Armenians will not fade out soon and at times I think it may even continue togrow. Such is life. I am wise enought to know that Heaven will never be created on this earth. Perhaps one day we will have a magnanimous relationship as we are doomed to be neighbors (yes, doomed). But as Emrah stated in his first post where he basically states that such -hatred would lead to war- I would have to counter this by asking what does it say about the Turkish nation that they would attack another nation just because the attackee does not like them?

[bell-the-cat]

The Turkish journalist you refer to is a genocide researcher that believes what befell Christians in the Ottoman Empire was genocide. He was unfortunately detained for supposedly smuggling rare books and resource materials out of a library.

He was actually detained because certain elements within Armenia, acting at the behest of Russia, did not want any dialogue between Turkey and Armenia.

There was no library involved. The "book-smuggling" was a trumped-up charge using laws that had never been enforced before. Afterwards, the authorities were worried that it would affect the confidence of tourists purchasing souvenirs, so a couple of months later they relaxed the legislation regarding the export of books and other objects.

[hitite]

This is a variation upon an old post.

For me, it is inconsequential whether Turks call it genocide or another name. What many Armenians realize on this board, and reading about recent events, is that I think there is a wilingness for is growing Turks to revisit history and look at the history in a critical way. We will probably never come to an agreement and it is an important step.


For Armenians:

1. Turks are not subhuman.
2. There are good Turks and bad Turks just like any other nation.
.
.



For Turks:

1. Whether you agree it was genocide or not, Armenians were murdered and cast out of their homeland; the place where their language, church, and culture was born and a place where they lived for thousands of years and this is extremely traumatic. Many of our family structures were ripped apart or destroyed wholesale.
2. The overwhelming majority of Armenians did not commit treason against the Ottoman state. It should also be noted that in certain areas in the Empire things denigenerated to the point were Armenians had no choice but to be slaughtered or defend themselves and many were eventually killed anyway.
.
.
.



The emnity between Turks and Armenians will not fade out soon and sometimes I think it may even grow. Such is life. Heaven will never be created on this earth. Perhaps one day we will have a magnanimous relationship as we are doomed to be neighbors (yes, doomed). But as Emrah stated in his first post where he basically states that such -hatred would lead to war- I would have to counter this by asking what does it say about the Turkish nation that they would attack another nation just because the attackee does not like them?

I salute this post. I mostly agree to every point.

[bell-the-cat]

I salute this post. I mostly agree to every point.

Same here.

[Yavrum]

Clap, clap, clap for Joseph. Great post and well said.

[hitite]

9. Just because a Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 as the successor state to the Ottoman Empire, does not mean that the past ceases to exist or is suddenly erased or that some of those responsible did not take part in Ataturks government.

I am no Atatürk worshipper but I do respect this guy. Just FYI in the early years of the Republic Mustafa Kemal faced fierce opposition from former CUP members. Any obstacles he faced while head of parliament and later when he was elected to be Commander in Chief in the Sakarya+Dumlupinar battles came from this group who were continuously in touch with Enver who was in Russia and later in Batum in that period. Kemal could not do anything at the time since they were chosen MP's and he needed full support from all fractions which he could only get because they were dire times and they did not have a better choice. If the first few battles with Greeks had been lost Enver would have been back in Turkey to overthrow the Ankara government. Their (ex-CUP members) gradual elimination or subordiantion came after the Greek army was kicked out of Turkey and he became president. So, in short, even though Atatürk had to bear with ex-CUP members for a certain period he really was not on the same political axis, I personally think he was closer to the Turkish Bolsheviks who supported his "war againt the imperialist west" and hence the massive support Kemal got from Russia during this war. Kemal however clear stated many times that he did not see Bolshevism suited for Turkey, even to the Russian envoys and Ambassadors he frequented with very often.