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To Hotinko and Emrah

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  • To Hotinko and Emrah

    Here's something from a newspaper article that really portrayed my feelings on the subject. You have to try and understand how 2nd generation Armenians feel when it was their mothers and fathers that went through absolute hell and escaping horrible deaths only to have their own loved ones die or be killed in front of them - children, mothers, fathers, everyone.

    An Armenian Father's Song to his son: Forgive, don't hate
    "You can't hate an entire people"
    West Palm Beach, FL

    by Douglas Kalajian

    My father, Nishan Kalajian, had the misfortune to be born in the city of Diyarbakir in southeastern Turkey in 1912, a desperate and convulsive time in the disintegrating Ottoman Empire.

    He was 3 years old when the soldiers came first to take the young men, including his father, and then returned for all the other Armenians. The pattern was repeated in village after village.

    The ensuing slaughter was eventually given a formal name: The Armenian Genocide. The ghostly survivors became almost as familiar to newspaper readers of their time as the refugees from Kosovo are today. The starving Armenians, as they were widely known, became an international cause.

    And then they were forgotten so completely that the people who rule their land today can blandly deny that anything so awful ever happened. The 1.5 million victims are memorialized too. They are nearly all gone, including my father. he told me only a little of his sad and miraculous story before he died; when I was young, my mother made me promise never to ask because she hated to see him cry. I managed to pick up many of the threads over the years. I know that he was snatched from his dying mother's arms. That he was taken away to live with Kurds. That he was sent out into the world alone and hungry again a few years later.

    He had, I thought, every right and reason to hate Turks and want revenge. Although my father became a deeply patriotic American after coming to this country at age 16, his Armenian soul was never masked. He couldn't tell the story he lived, but he enjoyed sharing stories about the kings and poets of his lost country. I felt the loss was mine. My Armenian friends were always my closest , and when we became even closer when we went off together to an Armenian summer camp in Massachusetts when I was 9 yrs. old.

    I met plenty of kids from around the country whose parents and grandparents were less reluctant than my father to share their sad stories. We ate in a drafty mess hall beneath turn-of-the-century photographs of men wearing bandoleers, Armenian revolutionaries. We sang their marching songs and imagined we were marching with them. I went back every summer to sing the songs and kill imaginary Turks. I shot a thousand of them with tree-branch guns. When I was older, I shot tin can Turks with a real rifle. I was certain that some day I'd find the Turk that killed my grandmother and kill him on the spot.

    Of course, I could never tell my father, but I felt certain he somehow understood. Until one night, when I was 15 years old, he invited two Turks to dinner. I'm sure I wasn't paying close attention when this first came up all I understood was that two musicians were coming. That wasn't unusual. My father loved music and people who made it. Musicians, mostly young Armenians, came by often for dinner and played into the night. My father sometimes sang along with them if he was in just the right mood. He sang most often when the songs were sad.

    It was sometimes just before the Turks arrived that I realized from my parents' conversation that these guests were different. Why was I surprised? My father listened to Turkish music as much as to Armenian music. I twas, after all, the music he heard as a boy.

    I had heard him say more than once that music has no nationality or politics, but those were just words until I saw the Turks sit down at our dining room table. I don't remember much about them except that one was tall and the other wasn't. Both had mustaches. They wore suits and ties. They spoke no English, but my father translated their greetings and compliments on my mother's cooking. Then one of them spoke to me. I'm sure it was a polite gesture, but I felt my throat close with anger. I threw my fork into my plate and ran upstairs to my room. My father followed a few minutes later.

    It was the only time in my life, I believe, that I ever raised my voice to him. I screamed that he had no right to bring Turks into our house. No right to make my mother cook for them. No right to make me sit there and be polite to them. My father didn't raise his voice. He tried, very calmly, to explain that his guests deserved to be treated with respect.

    But they're Turks, I reminded him, and we hate Turks. His reply was the most startling thing I ever heard him say: "I don't hate Turks." I was so shocked that, without thinking, I uttered the unmentionable. "You have to hate them," I said. "The Turks killed your mother."

    My father looked suddenly sad. He said, very softly, "The Turk who killed my mother is dead. The Kurd who saved me killed him."

    I felt ashamed then, and still do, to have said something so hurtful and stupid. Who was I to tell my father how he should feel about something I could never understand? I should have apologized, but I just stared silently. My father finished the conversation for me.

    You can hate people who do terrible things, he explained, but you can't hate someone who wasn't there or wasn't even born. "You can't hate an entire people," he said. "You may want to, but it doesn't make sense."

    He left me alone to think about what he'd said. I'm still thinking, more than 30 years later. I long ago stopped shooting at imaginary Turks, and I've made friends with at least a few real ones, but I can't say I truly absorbed my father's wisdom or pragmatism.

    I know he was right, about music and about people, but I'm still angry for what he lived through. I can't hate an entire people, but I can hate anyone who says the century's first genocide never happened.

    I never did go downstairs to apologize. After my father left, I lay on my bed with the door open. When the talking stopped, I heard and oud, the Middle Eastern proto-lute that has no frets to force the notes into a rigid, western scale. It's deep and quavering sound became more impossibly sad as the night went on. I could hear my father singing.

  • #2
    Thank you Yavrum
    "All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Gavur
      Thank you Yavrum
      Agreed - a powerful post that I think resonates with many of us...

      Comment


      • #4
        well it is a good article..

        I admit that i got angry in last posts, my intention was never to insult or ignore the suffering of the people who lived these horrible things...

        My anger mostly came from the things you show as source, which contain insult, the mentality of barbaric turks ´coming to anatolia and ruining everything... That is not true, go to anatolia and see it...

        My only argument, and most people in Turkey has the same opinion(except ones who have no idea or prefer to stick to lies), the events which occured didnt have the intention of exterminating the armenian group.. Things were out of control and the tragedies took place can not be used to condemn a whole and a single nation.. That is our claim no one says the ones who died deserved it or not so many died.. (there are such official claims but the problem also occurs from this, you think we support those claims, we are not(not me)).

        and i am tired of being called ignorant or liar, i am not.. You may have not heard it but there are also turkish researchers who adopted their lives on this issue, because they also suffered.. I believe it is unfair only to focus on the suffering of one side and ignore the other.. Accepting this event as the first genocide of the century will do this... and the acceptences done till now only show corruption and they are like the result of a going on war.. It is hard to reach a good solution with war, because it will mean suppression of other side..

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hotinko
          My anger mostly came from the things you show as source, which contain insult,
          As long as you claim such things as stating 1.5 million Armenians killed by the Turks is an insult - then I'd say we have every right and justification to tell you to F off in the most heartfelt kind of way. As long as you fail to accept that these events were highly observed and documented and that the truth is known and that we are basically right and you are basically wrong then you don't understand anything and you have no reason to be angry except toward your own government and media for lying to you for so long. Until you are humble and accept the history and the great and unprecidented (and entirely unjustified with no counter) crimes commited by your people against the Armenians and other Christians of the Ottoman Empire then you just don't really get it and you are not deserving of any respect. End of story. We are long ago tired of dealing with your kind of BS.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hotinko
            My only argument, and most people in Turkey has the same opinion(except ones who have no idea or prefer to stick to lies), the events which occured didnt have the intention of exterminating the armenian group..
            Wrong. You cling to this when it is clearly proven wrong. And if this is your only argument then I suggest you just conceed now and accept the truth. Just because you choose not to actually read the true scholarly/historical record and understand these events does not mean that your opinion - based on laughable and ficticious assumptions - should be taken seriously. You have no real argument. This is one reason we dismiss you so - you bring nothing worthy of real discussion. You are not nearly on the level of even a basic understanding of (cause and) events of this time. How in the world do you expect to be taken seriously. You are just a very easy target for (deserved) insult and dirersion.


            Originally posted by Hotinko
            Things were out of control and the tragedies took place can not be used to condemn a whole and a single nation..
            Things were not at all out of control - this is a myth that is countered by obvservation and record of the times and by statements made by CUP memebers and Turkish Government officials during and after this time. And think about what you are saying - "Condemnation of a nation" - well your "nations" continued denial is condemning itself - instead of honestly condenming the perpetrators of these crimes - your nation chooses to shield them and identify itself with them...of course - considering the histlry of the founding of your Republic (and its myths and lies) - its no wonder...

            Originally posted by Hotinko
            That is our claim no one says the ones who died deserved it or not so many died.. (there are such official claims but the problem also occurs from this, you think we support those claims, we are not(not me)).
            Ha! Absolutly this is your position - that those who died (were killed...who were overwhelmingly Armenian & Greek) were deserving - because of false belief - on your part - that this was some equal inter-ethnic conflict - which is entirely false - this is a myth perpetrated by your governments propoganda that is entirely discredited by fact and observation. You have no clue. You are ignorant and/or a liar!

            Originally posted by Hotinko
            and i am tired of being called ignorant or liar, i am not.
            Are you tired of it or are you not - please be clear! LOL

            Look -you have yet to be truthful or say anything accurate in this post...and perhaps ever in this forum. The shoe fits buddy boy. You are tired? Can you imagine how we Armenians might feel by the likes of you?

            Originally posted by Hotinko
            You may have not heard it but there are also turkish researchers who adopted their lives on this issue, because they also suffered.. I believe it is unfair only to focus on the suffering of one side and ignore the other..
            hahahahahahahaha...you are certainly a jokester....

            You are refering to David Irving perhaps....oh I'm sorry that is a denialist fraud of that other genocide....your BS is just laughable. "Unfair to focus on the suffering of one side"? FU! ...thats like taking pity on a mass murderer who is on death row...poor guy...l just look how he suffers...how can we be so one sided in our sympathy for the victims! What an outrage!

            Originally posted by Hotinko
            Accepting this event as the first genocide of the century will do this... and the acceptences done till now only show corruption and they are like the result of a going on war.. It is hard to reach a good solution with war, because it will mean suppression of other side..
            I'm impressed you can string (meaningless and unsupported) English words together (at least to the extent that you can fool yourself that you have made some kind foa valid point. We are not fooled however. - were just a bit more educated on this subject then you are...we actually understand what happened...we actually have read a few (real) books on this matter...etc

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hotinko
              My only argument, and most people in Turkey has the same opinion(except ones who have no idea or prefer to stick to lies), the events which occured didnt have the intention of exterminating the armenian group.
              If you really were to look clearly, there is no way you could continue to believe in that assertion. So, either you are not looking at things properly, or you are conciously making yourself blind. Regardless of which it is, if you are doing it on this subject then maybe you are also doing it for some other subjects that have a much greater importance to Turkey. And scale this up to cover the population of a whole country and you can see the problem that Turkey has created for itself. Like one historian said "a people which is cut off from its own past is far less free to choose and to act as a people than one which has been able to situate itself in history".

              Originally posted by Hotinko
              and i am tired of being called ignorant or liar, i am not..
              Yes, you probably are getting tired of it.
              Plenipotentiary meow!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bell-the-cat
                If you really were to look clearly, there is no way you could continue to believe in that assertion. So, either you are not looking at things properly, or you are conciously making yourself blind. Regardless of which it is, if you are doing it on this subject then maybe you are also doing it for some other subjects that have a much greater importance to Turkey. And scale this up to cover the population of a whole country and you can see the problem that Turkey has created for itself. Like one historian said "a people which is cut off from its own past is far less free to choose and to act as a people than one which has been able to situate itself in history".



                Yes, you probably are getting tired of it.

                Well after reading the massages from 1.5 i believe nothing postive comes out but negative.. Although josephs massage was very good...

                I wrote to phantom and several subjects many times, if i will say there is armenian genocide i want to believe it not because 1.5 says it or some ugly articles about turkish people proove it. I at the same time read equally logical and believable anti-thesis... And i am in no point to go and research the whole history and even if i do, i may come up with wrong results...

                But point well taken 1.5.. I am not coming to this forum again you can discuss within each other how turkish raped and killed you and stole anatolia from you...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hotinko
                  I am not coming to this forum again...
                  no loss. If you could read and really cared you could look into past threads here and see that there has been plenty of substance presented & discussed (by myslef and others)...though I supose you just don't have the capacity...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, I had hoped to build some bridges here. Somehow, there has to be a meeting of the minds. Maybe it's impossible.

                    Comment

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