The Assassination of Hrant Dink

[Joseph]

Yes, I will come out and say it the way I think it is !

As a diasporan armenian I feel guilty about the killing of Hrant Dink. Why did we not listen to him? He was trying to build bridges between our two people.
Yes we owe it to our forebears to have the GENOCIDE recognised by Turkey, but not at the expense of the LIVING Armenians. In Turkey and in Armenia our brethren are paying the price of the DIASPORAN Armenians noisy demand for recognition of the GENOCIDE. Let us ALL carry on Hrant's work . Let us shelve the GENOCIDE 'pre-condition before any talks between the leaders of Armenia and Turkey.

For the sake of our OWN people living in Turkey and Armenia let us back Turkey's application to join the EU.HRANT DINK did.And so does the Armenian Patriarch in Istanbul. Are we discrediting both ? I am not !

Actually, the State of Armenia has no pre-conditions regarding diplomatic relations with Turkey. None. If you were actually an Armenian, you would know that. It has been stated publicly ad naseum. Turkey has several pre-conditions for relations.

Furthermore, Hrant Dink did not "shelve" genocide recognition, he believed in increased democracy bringing about a change in Turkey with regards to eventuall recognition.

While some Armenians support Turkey's ascension to the EU (especially those living in Turkey), others like me do not. Why should Turkey who bullies and blockades a neighbor of 3 million, is run by a shadow government consisting of generals, harrases it minorities be rewarded by being part of the EU?

[nkirimli]

Please enlighten us with Hrant Dink's daughters words. I have already seen what his wife has said as it's been widely reported.
-Why are there still Tutsi's in Rwanda, Bosnians in Serbia proper, Jews living in Germany, Poland and Austria, Aborigines in Austrailia, Chechens in Russia???
While all these others have been vicitms of genocide, some still exist, even amongst the people that have tried to destroy them. I guess in that regard, no genocide is completely successful.

Your last point was a very good one. Dink lived it. He was scorned, ridiculed, hated and eventually murdered. He certainly was brave.

What was special about Dink was that he spoke his mind despite the pressure face by the ulusalci, government, facsists, etc and was prosecuted for it; despite facing possible deportation, prison, if he continued. Now he's no longer here to offend you so I guess you won. Obviously, some in your country found him special as witnessed by the public outpouring amongst a segment of your population.

I'm glad you'll remain brothers with Armenians in Turkey as we continue to strive for justice.

I already "enlighten" you about his daughters words.. Read the previous message pls.

First of all, I was asking about why is Hrant's murder is genocide.. I wasnt asking the past? I am not arguing if there was an armenian genocide or not in the past (if you want we can argue that too ofcourse) I was asking the present time! Why would/should this murder lead people to admit armenian genocide? What is the relation?

And I have to ask you have you ever read Hrant's articles? Really? He wasnt against Turks? He wasnt fighting to turkish people!! Furthermore he was against the armenian diaspora!! Have you really read his articles?
Did you really tried to understand what he was trying to say?
We never hated him (maybe some did, but you cant blame whole nation in the manner of a few people)! He has just a little words that offended us, but huge words that showing he was one of US. He was an Armenian but he was a Turkish citizen and he was PROUD of it. He was the first one who condemned the French genocide law.


And of course we will stay brothers. And pls you, other armenians keep doing what you believe in.
But please do it in an HONOST way. Do it with real facts. Keep your honor.
Open your historical archives and prove your claims. Turkish government suggested Armenians to open their archives. But they refused with the reason "not having enough money to do that". And Turkish even offered the money needed to open the archives, but no results anyways.
Why?

Just open them and please show us that you are right!!

[nkirimli]

Actually, the State of Armenia has no pre-conditions regarding diplomatic relations with Turkey. None. If you were actually an Armenian, you would know that. It has been stated publicly ad naseum. Turkey has several pre-conditions for relations.

Thats not right!! Erivan just accepted the diplomatic relations with turkey today!! Just right now, turkish TV's giving the news flash!!
Erivan never accepted relations..

[Joseph]

I already "enlighten" you about his daughters words.. Read the previous message pls.

First of all, I was asking about why is Hrant's murder is genocide.. I wasnt asking the past? I am not arguing if there was an armenian genocide or not in the past (if you want we can argue that too ofcourse) I was asking the present time! Why would/should this murder lead people to admit armenian genocide? What is the relation?

And I have to ask you have you ever read Hrant's articles? Really? He wasnt against Turks? He wasnt fighting to turkish people!! Furthermore he was against the armenian diaspora!! Have you really read his articles?
Did you really tried to understand what he was trying to say?
We never hated him (maybe some did, but you cant blame whole nation in the manner of a few people)! He has just a little words that offended us, but huge words that showing he was one of US. He was an Armenian but he was a Turkish citizen and he was PROUD of it. He was the first one who condemned the French genocide law.


And of course we will stay brothers. And pls you, other armenians keep doing what you believe in.
But please do it in an HONOST way. Do it with real facts. Keep your honor.
Open your historical archives and prove your claims. Turkish government suggested Armenians to open their archives. But they refused with the reason "not having enough money to do that". And Turkish even offered the money needed to open the archives, but no results anyways.
Why?

Just open them and please show us that you are right!!

I was hoping that you could provide a source/link to what his daughter said. I suppose not. Because if she did say that, I imagine it would have been picked up by now by several new agencies, especially Turkish ones.

It is my opinion that his murder is related to the Armenian Genocide in that he spoke out against it and was killed for it. The murder shows that the same facsism that existed in 1915 in Turkey is still very much alive today.

Believing in the truth of the genocide does not automatically make one an enemy of the Turks, unless of course it is Turks who believe it in their own minds.

I'm very familiar with his writings and I and other members have posted articles by Hrant Dink and articles regarding him in this website several times.

In no articles, writings, etc. having to do with or penned by Hrant Dink has he ever said anything anti-Turkish. As you yourself say, he was a self-proclaimed patriot and he believed that Genocide recognition was good for Turkey and would lead to increased democratization. He said and wrote on numerous occasions that he loved Turkey. Nor was he against the Armenian diaspora as he had many friends and contacts there. He was against radicalism. Regarding the proposed French resolution I believe it was he who said that though he calls it a genocide, he would go to France and deny it just to prove a point about censorship. Therefore that tells me he believed in the genocide but did not support political resolutions against its denial; he believed in the ends not the means to get there when it cam to genocide recognition.


We will continue our fight in an honest way, the same way we have been doing it for several decades, with facts. Our best resources have come from German, Austro-Hungarian, (both of your wartime allies) British, French, Russian archives and even Turkish ones.

[Joseph]

Hrant Dinks Last Column Again

Hrant Dink's last column in Agos

The irony of history
Let's first repeat the news: The opening date of the Surp Haç Armenian Church of Ahtamar Island in Van, which was restored last year but remained unopened, has been postponed for the third time. In a written statement from the governor of Van it was announced that Ahtamar Church, the restoration of which is complete, will be opened to tourism on April 11. It was also said that the opening ceremony, which will be attended by international guests, will be organized by the governor of Van and the Ministry of Tourism.
Ten years ago, I addressed public officials in Van with my piece, "The Ahtamar workers battalion," and said: "Instead of creating 'monsters' to attract tourists note the historical sights in front of your eyes. Why does one need such mistaken steps? Van is a heaven of historical heritage. Why don't we sit down and think about how to restore this region? 'Armenians will come' they say. So what? Let them come and see the places of their ancestors. What's wrong with that?" And I added: "If you need help, we are ready to help. O history! O future! The youth in Turkey, Armenia and the diaspora are volunteers. 'The Ahtamar workers battalion' is ready for your orders... Know this. "Come, let's not restore the Ahtamar Church merely as a building. Let's also restore our frayed souls."
At last, after 10 years, the restoration of Ahtamar is finally done. We would love to see Turkey and Armenia cooperate in this restoration. But, unfortunately it wasn't the case.
Anyhow, one needs to mention and give thanks for the meticulous work of the project manager Cahit Zeydan, who tried to bring experts from Armenia for consultation, and was able to add the Turkish-Armenian architect Zakarya Mildano?lu to the project. They did their best and a great job. However the bureaucrats and the politicians messed it up. They weren't able to realize the opening of the church. First they postponed the opening, which was announced as Nov. 4, 2006, to April 2007 because of "weather conditions." Then Atilla Koç, the tourism minister, announced that the ceremony will take place on April 24. Then came the reactions to Koç's timing. Armenian Patriarch Mutafyan declared "no Armenian, including himself, would join the ceremony if it was held on April 24."
Last week the subject was discussed in Parliament. CHP ?zmir deputy Erdal Karademir asked whether holding the opening ceremony on April 24, the anniversary of the Armenian genocide, was the result of a specific AKP policy.
The nationalist press, on the other hand, carried the opening of the church into its headlines as "The treasonous opening in Van."
And now the date is announced as April 11.
It could only be possible to put a right job on a wrong course so successfully. The impossible-to-hide hidden motive could not be more revealing.
A real comedy… A real tragedy…
The government hasn't still been able to formulate a correct approach to the "Armenian question."
Its real aim is not to solve the problem, but to gain points like a wrestler in a contest. How and when it will make the right move and defeat its opponent. That's the only concern.
This is not earnestness.
The state calls on Armenian historians to discuss history, but does not shy from trying its own intellectuals who have an unorthodox rhetoric on the Armenian genocide.
It restores an Armenian church in the Southeast, but only thinks, "How can I use this for political gains in the world, how can I sell it?" The shifting of the opening of the Ahtamar Church to April 24 is a clear indication of this dishonest thinking.
And now pay attention!
While the rejection coming from the nationalist camp and even from the Armenian patriarch to the date of the opening creates a chance to correct the mistake, an irony of history appears on the scene.
The irony says, "Since you have shown irresponsibility, let me add to it," and reveals that the newly chosen date, April 11, is indeed April 24!
The April 11 of the year 1915 is exactly the April 24 of today, due to the difference between the old and new calendars.
No wonder the date April 24 is a later addition to the Armenian literature, with the coming of the new Turkish calendar. That date, on which the Armenian intellectuals and leaders were sent to oblivion, was indeed April 11, 1915.
Now a question remains:
Will those who have found April 24 problematic and have opted for April 11 instead choose to change the timing again?Or one could ask it this way: Are you sure? Is this your final decision?

[Joseph]

Thats not right!! Erivan just accepted the diplomatic relations with turkey today!! Just right now, turkish TV's giving the news flash!!
Erivan never accepted relations..

Turkey has refused to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia without preconditions, which have changed over the years. Armenia was always ready to open relations without any preconditions, however Turkey's insistence on them has meant no diplomatic relations have ever been established. Armenia's insistence on having diplomatic has been stated in international forums on several occasions year after year since 1993. I'm not sure where you get your information from.

Turkey shutdown relations and closed the border in 1993 and official relations have been closed ever since.


Below is the most recent call:


Armenia calls for establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey
January 14, 2007 20:58:18

ITAR-TASS News Agency, Russia
January 13, 2007 Saturday

Armenia calls for establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey



Armenia calls for establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey
without any preconditions, Deputy Foreign Minister Arman Kirakosyan
said.

The Armenian diplomat spoke at an international conference devoted to
the economic and social consequences for opening the Armenian-Turkish
border on Saturday. The forum is organised by a public organisation
``Armenian Economic Research Group'', which was founded by young
economists from Armenia, the United States and other countries.

``In order to ensure stability and security, and develop broad
cooperation in the region it is necessary for Turkey to have unbiased
equal relations with all states of the South Caucasus and give up its
policy towards forcing Armenia out of regional programmes, including
economic ones,'' Kirakosyan said.

In his view, in order to establish diplomatic relations and open
borders with Armenia Turkey put forth certain conditions. One of the
main conditions is to resolve the Karabakh problem. ``Thus, Turkey
defies the norms of international law and violates the 1921 Treaty of
Kars'' that was signed by Armenia, Azerbaijan and the Georgian SSR
one side, and Turkey and the RSFR on the other side. Under the
treaty, the sides obliged to ensure free movement of people and
cargoes.

[Joseph]

Thats not right!! Erivan just accepted the diplomatic relations with turkey today!! Just right now, turkish TV's giving the news flash!!
Erivan never accepted relations..

If Turkey has accepted diplomatic relations, the foreign press has not picked it up yet.

[Jade]

Friends,
To all of the Armenians who write in this forum, I understand your sorrow, your anger, your bitterness. As a nation, you were robbed of a generation...Whatever the rest may call what happened in the past, may they call it "genocide", may they call it "unrest", does not really matter. What matters was people were killed and perhaps some believe that their numbers are exaggerated but what does it matter? What matters is not the name that we may call this bloodbath but that it did happen, that people died and the loss of those families should not be measured with numbers. When a person dies, an entire family along with friends and relations lose a piece of their heart along with that person...The grief is enough.
As for the murder of Hrant Dink, the beloved journalist, I can only say, that a great man who felt Turkish died and the loss is too great to explain. I am Turkish and I cry when I think that my nation is somehow responsible for a person who was such a credit to it. How can I explain it? Like I said, the grief it too great...Today dies another chance along with this man...another hope, another wish...its hard to express...

[Joseph]

Friends,
To all of the Armenians who write in this forum, I understand your sorrow, your anger, your bitterness. As a nation, you were robbed of a generation...Whatever the rest may call what happened in the past, may they call it "genocide", may they call it "unrest", does not really matter. What matters was people were killed and perhaps some believe that their numbers are exaggerated but what does it matter? What matters is not the name that we may call this bloodbath but that it did happen, that people died and the loss of those families should not be measured with numbers. When a person dies, an entire family along with friends and relations lose a piece of their heart along with that person...The grief is enough.
As for the murder of Hrant Dink, the beloved journalist, I can only say, that a great man who felt Turkish died and the loss is too great to explain. I am Turkish and I cry when I think that my nation is somehow responsible for a person who was such a credit to it. How can I explain it? Like I said, the grief it too great...Today dies another chance along with this man...another hope, another wish...its hard to express...

I can only speak for myself but your sentiments are appreciated.

[hrad]

Reply to Joseph

Yes, I will come out and say it the way I think it is !

As a diasporan armenian I feel guilty about the killing of Hrant Dink. Why did we not listen to him? He was trying to build bridges between our two people.
Yes we owe it to our forebears to have the GENOCIDE recognised by Turkey, but not at the expense of the LIVING Armenians. In Turkey and in Armenia our brethren are paying the price of the DIASPORAN Armenians noisy demand for recognition of the GENOCIDE. Let us ALL carry on Hrant's work . Let us shelve the GENOCIDE 'pre-condition before any talks between the leaders of Armenia and Turkey.

For the sake of our OWN people living in Turkey and Armenia let us back Turkey's application to join the EU.HRANT DINK did.And so does the Armenian Patriarch in Istanbul. Are we discrediting both ? I am not !

It's funny isn't it . I am trying to put forward an argument and the next thing I see is that some 'true Armenians' probably sons or grandsons of Lebanese Armenians AND Dashnags ,accuse me of not being Armenian ! How very convenient. Why don't you defend YOUR argument. Not all DIASPORAN Armenians are Dashnaks. Not all diasporan Armenians are with YOUR way of thinking.Try and CONVINCE me that ,GENOCIDE recognition by Turkey is far more IMPORTANT than the plight of our fellow Armenians in Turkey or more importantly the future of land-locked Armenia.

I would appreciate it if you as MODERATOR and an Armenian answer me the above SIMPLE question. Or SIMPLER still . Would Armenia (don't forget you are a True Armenian= DASHNAG) be better served if Turkey joined the European Union.

A VERY simple question. I am waiting eagerly for an answer