The Assassination of Hrant Dink

[Joseph]

The mystery of the photograph unraveled

It has turned out that the poster-like photograph of Ogün Samast, who killed Dink, was taken at the Samsun bus station gendarmerie police station. The teams who caught the suspect took a souvenir photo with him after giving him a flag to hold up.

After Ogün Samast, the triggerman of the murder of Agos newspaper editor-in-chief Hrant Dink was arrested, his photograph in front of Turkish flag became the issue of debate. The photograph was discussed as much as the murder itself. The place where the photograph was taken was discussed for days and the ministry of internal affairs and gendarmerie assigned auditors, who could not detect the place in the photograph. Then the camera footage of the photograph revealed that it was taken at the gendarmerie police station in Samsun bus station. After Samast was arrested; checked and his hands were handcuffed, the officers beside him took the photograph and the camera footage instead of taking him to the police department.

Publish Date: 02.02.2007
Link: http://english.sabah.com.tr/ED1A8A7C...14E717E2E.html

[Vogelgrippe]

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1). I agree with you.

2). Armenia does recognize the current border

1) Nice to see that we have at least one opinion in common

2) Are you sure?

http://www.armtown.com/news/en/rfe/20060127/200601273/

Unless you claim that this article and its contents are not written by Armenians, but by undercover Turkish agents, you are seriously wrong about it.

Obviously, Dashnaks and their ideology are supported by a significant portion, if not majority, of Armenians. Furthermore, Armenia is not stupid enough to make its territorial claims more obvious than this.

FYI: Countries with territorial claims in their constitutions are not admitted into UN in the first place. You have to be a little discreet about it!

[Joseph]

1) Nice to see that we have at least one opinion in common

2) Are you sure?

http://www.armtown.com/news/en/rfe/20060127/200601273/

Unless you claim that this article and its contents are not written by Armenians, but by undercover Turkish agents, you are seriously wrong about it.

Obviously, Dashnaks and their ideology are supported by a significant portion, if not majority, of Armenians. Furthermore, Armenia is not stupid enough to make its territorial claims more obvious than this.

FYI: Countries with territorial claims in their constitutions are not admitted into UN in the first place. You have to be a little discreet about it!

The Constitution of Armenia make no provision for land claims from Turkey. I'm not sure if nations with land claims are not let into the UN, but that sounds accurate. At the same time, if Armenia then violated that principal, by say, publicly making claims, invading Turkish territory (which you and I know won't happen)etc., then would they not be kicked out of the UN? I don't think Armenia would want to follow tha course.

The article you have posted is from a Dashnaksutiun website. They are one of several political parties in present day Armenia and one of only two I know of with any territorial claims regarding land in present-day Turkey.The are a minority party as part of the current ruling coalition. The majority of Armenians inside Armenia and in the diaspora are not members of this party. Despite the rhetoric in the article, President Kocharian (a nationalist btw) has already spoken on the record that there are no territorial claims. Turkey is unable to make the distinction between the diaspora and the Armenian state. Perhaps if the governments were talking directly, things would be more clear instead of being up to the speculation of both populations.

At the same time, I don't believe many Armenians would object to receiving land as compensation for the Genocide. If the issue is ever brought to the forefront as some sort of compensation as part of a Turkish apology then Armenians would be for it but even if Turkey came to the table and admitted the guilt of the Ottoman regime, realistically this would most likely never happen; the return of lands/property.

It was Turkey very recently who requested a land corridor in Armenia that would make a direct link between Turkey and Azerbaijan as one of its demands on Armenia. That may indeed be a land claim. I shall investigate that further.

It was not Armenia that closed its borders with Turkey or Azerbaijan. If these latter countries wish to have a land link, it seems to me that all they have to do is reverse their blockades.

[Jade]

Somehow I believe that one could be both a nationalist and an intellectual...I for one believe I am. Let me tell you all a bit about myself and perhaps then it will make more sense for everyone here for why I have decided to join this group. As you may imagine, the "Armenian Genocide" is a very controversial and hot topic in Turkey right now...The first Turkish to gain the Noble Prize...And he admits to the genocide. I come from a nationalistic family and although I don't know much about the whole Armenian Genocide (I have yet to read more about the issue before I can comment one way or the other), whenever I asked questions about it to people around me (Turkish people), there was no one who admitted to this genocide. Their statement was that it was during war and extremes happen in war, and that Turkish people alongside with Armenians were also killed. Now I am not saying that this is my personal opinion, it is just what I have been able to gather asking around...Right now I currently reside in Belgium and although I go to an international school (yes, I am quite young) and my best friends include an Indian, a Greek (remember, Turks are not very friendly with the greeks as well), and a French to name a few, I have not had the chance to meet any Armenian students in my school. But I was never a person to exactly believe as I was told and I would like to hear both sides before I could decide to believe in anything. Which is why I wanted to become part of this forum. I have grown up far away from my own country (Turkey) which is perhaps why I can be so judgemental of it. I can look at my country and try and see it the way other people outside of Turkey do. And I do realize with disappointment, that there is so much to be done. And I cannot find any excuses, or any reasons for not doing those essential things (maybe because of my lack of historical knowledge...but I don't think so)...Now, for dear Armenians out there, who feel bitter and cheated of a lost generation, again I tell you that you stand not alone. There are people like me who believe it your right to make a claim. The world we live in today...The Turkey that one day I hope to return to...Is exactly why I would like to become a journalist someday. To attack controversy and to "insult the Turkishness". Please do not get the wrong idea, I believe to my very blood that I am a Turk. My family is ethnically very diverse, one of my grandfathers originate from Crimea, my grandmother's almost entire family is from the Caucasus region, and I wouldn't be surprised if we had any Armenian blood as well...People tell me I look Russian...But I feel Turk and this is what matters. But I am not afraid to heavily criticize my country. I am a nationalist, but I am an intellectual as well...I do not believe in the entry of Turkey into the EU until Turkey has solved her issues. That does not mean I do not want my country in it. But her entry should be fair and exceptions should not be made. Perhaps one day I will be targeted for my "extreme ideas", but I am willing to give it a try and I am willing to stand up for what I believe should be everyone's right. Free speech no matter what. When I read the posts that have been posted here, I feel disappointed, I agree that unfortunately Turks for the most part have always been warpeople...Their ways of dealing with people were more than a bit "extreme" and nothing could ever deny this. And right now Turkey faces an uncertain future. But, do not despair, for there will always be people like me who are willing to question...And perhaps that will be for the good of all...Armenians and Turks likewise...I hope someday, that I can stand hand in hand with an Armenian or a Kurd and realize and acknowledge the past and work for a future. Please, tell me what you think. If I am to be a journalist someday, I must look at both sides.

[Hovik]

Somehow I believe that one could be both a nationalist and an intellectual...I for one believe I am. Let me tell you all a bit about myself and perhaps then it will make more sense for everyone here for why I have decided to join this group. As you may imagine, the "Armenian Genocide" is a very controversial and hot topic in Turkey right now...The first Turkish to gain the Noble Prize...And he admits to the genocide. I come from a nationalistic family and although I don't know much about the whole Armenian Genocide (I have yet to read more about the issue before I can comment one way or the other), whenever I asked questions about it to people around me (Turkish people), there was no one who admitted to this genocide. Their statement was that it was during war and extremes happen in war, and that Turkish people alongside with Armenians were also killed. Now I am not saying that this is my personal opinion, it is just what I have been able to gather asking around...Right now I currently reside in Belgium and although I go to an international school (yes, I am quite young) and my best friends include an Indian, a Greek (remember, Turks are not very friendly with the greeks as well), and a French to name a few, I have not had the chance to meet any Armenian students in my school. But I was never a person to exactly believe as I was told and I would like to hear both sides before I could decide to believe in anything. Which is why I wanted to become part of this forum. I have grown up far away from my own country (Turkey) which is perhaps why I can be so judgemental of it. I can look at my country and try and see it the way other people outside of Turkey do. And I do realize with disappointment, that there is so much to be done. And I cannot find any excuses, or any reasons for not doing those essential things (maybe because of my lack of historical knowledge...but I don't think so)...Now, for dear Armenians out there, who feel bitter and cheated of a lost generation, again I tell you that you stand not alone. There are people like me who believe it your right to make a claim. The world we live in today...The Turkey that one day I hope to return to...Is exactly why I would like to become a journalist someday. To attack controversy and to "insult the Turkishness". Please do not get the wrong idea, I believe to my very blood that I am a Turk. My family is ethnically very diverse, one of my grandfathers originate from Crimea, my grandmother's almost entire family is from the Caucasus region, and I wouldn't be surprised if we had any Armenian blood as well...People tell me I look Russian...But I feel Turk and this is what matters. But I am not afraid to heavily criticize my country. I am a nationalist, but I am an intellectual as well...I do not believe in the entry of Turkey into the EU until Turkey has solved her issues. That does not mean I do not want my country in it. But her entry should be fair and exceptions should not be made. Perhaps one day I will be targeted for my "extreme ideas", but I am willing to give it a try and I am willing to stand up for what I believe should be everyone's right. Free speech no matter what. When I read the posts that have been posted here, I feel disappointed, I agree that unfortunately Turks for the most part have always been warpeople...Their ways of dealing with people were more than a bit "extreme" and nothing could ever deny this. And right now Turkey faces an uncertain future. But, do not despair, for there will always be people like me who are willing to question...And perhaps that will be for the good of all...Armenians and Turks likewise...I hope someday, that I can stand hand in hand with an Armenian or a Kurd and realize and acknowledge the past and work for a future. Please, tell me what you think. If I am to be a journalist someday, I must look at both sides.

I can honestly say I cannot remember the last time I was this interested in hearing what a Turkish member of this forum had to say. I am REALLY looking forward to future discussions with you. And may I extend a very warm welcome to this forum.

[Gavur]

Welcome Jade,
Of course theres nothing wrong of being a nationalists as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of "other"'s.The ying-yang of the matter is the other side who demands and imposes their version of things are doing it under a mask of nationalist, we have them in every society in different increments.

I believe the reason Turkey has such a bad reputation in the world is because these elements of their society instead of being put in their place they are always supported collaborated with and exhaulted.The latest events in Turkey have proven this once again and as you and all the diaspora Turks are forced in to being Hrant Dink a person in the middle, it will provide you with the burden of researching how far back this denial of the "other" went but also the challenge of shaping your view of what future of Turkey should be like.Because as the saying in Turkish goes "Yagmur yagar cise cise ,bugun size yarin bize" (The rain pours ever so lightly,on us today on you tomorrow).And we all know that those so-called nationalists umbrella's won't even cover their own heads,infact thats our challenge to see to it that it don't.

View of things in this world is our foremost right as humans(before even bread&water)not to be imposed on or violated upon at the sametime I believe groups of Wolfe's cannot be permitted to march up to any street of any civilized city, and look for "other"s to impose their ill gotten will on'em.

Now about the Armenian Genocide ,You do need to research it so it can give you invaluable insights to your country's past good and bad.I would suggest start by taking note of both Turkish and Armenian versions of relative chronological events and verify through all sources and then fill in the blanks discount all excuse's you come across ,like Armenian's all Turks are murderers or Turkish Yes we did it it wasn't that bad and I'll do it again ,but first ask me why I did it? or my favorite even in the smallest village in Turkey for example if herd of sheep suicide themselves over a cliff you'll hear murmurings of "Olsa olsa bu boluculerin isidir" (It has to be the work of the separatist's).

Last but not least, you must not look just both sides 'cause this is not a match,you must lead with the knowledges you uniquely develop through everything, at the same time focusing on the positive side ."The strength you need which you will find in your noble mind"

[1.5 million]

I can honestly say I cannot remember the last time I was this interested in hearing what a Turkish member of this forum had to say. I am REALLY looking forward to future discussions with you. And may I extend a very warm welcome to this forum.

I second that thought. I think that you may be a hope for the future of your nation. Please keep an open mind and do not hesitate to ask questions and to give your opinion and explain to us what it is based on. I look forward to your involvement in this forum.

[Jade]

Thank you for the warm welcome everyone...I honestly felt delighted and honored...I represent a new generation that is willing to accept the past and to move on. You, the Armenians are the ones who were hurt, therefore you should set the terms. If you think this is a genocide, and if you believe you have enough evidence to do so (which, from what I have gathered, you do have), then for the sake of those who died, and for the sake of their families, then it should be called so. Perhaps it will not bring the dead back, but it is the least that could be done...I believe this is very important for the Armenians, that it should be recognised as genocide. And I suppose the sad truth (sad for the Turks) is this; Turkey will not able to move on without having accepted their mistakes. Perhaps, the name does not matter, what matters is this; that people died. And a lot of them did. If you could imagine the vastness of the situation. Not only the people. But the children they could never have...The grandchildren...It adds to an entire generation. A lost generation. You were robbed of that. I believe that this is the problem. The generation that you will never have back. I don't know why the Turks would refuse to call it a genocide...The Germans have, and they have moved on, they are now the biggest advocators of Human Rights. They have learned their lesson. As long as Turkey does not admit, then she will never be able to move on. And the rest of the world will shun them. Please, do not be bitter towards the Turks. We won our independence through very difficult circumstances through a war and sacrifice...And now the Islamists are trying to take it away again. That is why the Nationalists are so extreme. They are afraid. Try to understand them. We have only had a Republic since 1923, and there are so many people in Turkey who want to see Turkey a modern western country. Yet there are others who continue to be extremely religious. I for one am personally tired of seeing women in black shawls covering their entire body including their face save for the eyes. You could find that in Turkey. In modern day Istanbul. Everywhere. We are fighting them while trying to keep an image. You become extremely possesive about something that you want but are facing the danger of losing. That I believe, is the explanation of nationalism in Turkey. A country torn between the west and the Arabic influence. When Ataturk was in power, he had changed the law so that the Islamic call to prayer through the mosque, (the ezan) would be made in Turkish. Now its back to being made in Arabic. Millions today are saying prayers in a language that they don't understand. Can you imagine the horribleness of the situation?...This for me, the fear of losing the country to internal forces, is the fear that drives the nationalists. The reason they cannot find any fault in Turkey. The reason they react to people like Orhan Pamuk and Elif Safak who "insult the Turkishness". But the real people who actually do insult the "Turkishness" are the people who walk the streets of Istanbul and Ankara in veils. Of course it is their right, everyone is free to do as they wish, but because of these people, most Westerners believe that all the Turks are like that. This is what drives me crazy. The denial...The extremists...What could be done?

[1.5 million]

Jade - it is much worse for Armenians then even you are imagining. We have not just lost a generation - but we have lost all ties to the lands where we lived and the lands of our history - and this is no small thing - particualrly not for a people like us who have persevered through so much (attempts by others to conquor and disengage us from our land and culture) throughout the centuries. Secondly we suffer through both the humiliation an pain of the suffering and horrible death that has been experienced by all of our families...I'm not sure you can even imagine it...but perhaps you have had such a loss in your family to understand...now multiply it by our entire people - eveyone practically without acception among Armenians has had this loss - ourselves and as a collective...and then we have faced and still now face the persistant and very aggressive denial (and you have already expressed at least some understanding of the forces involved - though you likely do not fully understand the history and how these forces came about). And it was genocide - in every sense of the word - more then that - it is the action that became the word. And while I understand your sentimant who among us cannot be bitter? It is not possible that we cannot be. But you might be surprised concerning the affinity that many of us still feel toward Turks and Anatolia - in spite of it all. I spent several hours earlier today with some Turkish friends (one who will marry his fiance in Istanbul in June) and we discussed many things - including our love of places in Anatolia and we talked about (both of our) food! and we also talked of the very dangers to your nation that you mention and mutually hoped that our worst fears in this regard (ascendency of Muslim fundementalism) would not come to pass. Anyway I think that in this and in areas concerning recognition of the Armenian Genocide - our (Turks and Armenians) real long term interests actually coincide. It is not in the interest of your nation to continue to perpetuate lies and myths - because such only breeds more - and such only stifles your nation and allows openings for even worse (fundemental Islam) to make its way in. Your (political) stagnation - much of which is due to the need to maintain the "story" about the Armenians - is an incredible weak spot for you (Turkey) and overcomming it is in fact very important for the development and long term health of your nation. It also never hurts to have one less enemy...think about that (Turks reading this who have failed to agree or get my point up to now)...

[Jade]

This is exactly what I feel...Not only would coming to terms with the past help Turkey move forward but also to acknowledge those deaths is the least we could do for the thousands who died and their families who suffered from losses alongside with them. I know how important this is to you. And I understand....Fully... All I have to do is put myself in your shoes. I wish everyone could've done that. But I do not know how we will be able to solve this issue. As you might have imagined, Turkish people like me are unfortunately a minority. Most continue to find excuses somehow. But I was never a person to deny history and there is unfortunately (I say unfortunately because no one likes to admit that their nation was responsible for a genocide) overwhelming evidence that supports Armenians' claim. And it would be futile to keep on denying when there is such proof. But like I've said, most everyone, (possibly including my parents) would probably disagree with me or perhaps even accuse me of "insulting Turkishness" if I were to go to Turkey and say this outloud. While they wouldn't be able to realize that I love Turkey just as much as them, but denial has never helped anyone, and I would only be pushing the Turks to admit in the hopes that there might still be a chance of reconciliation, or perhaps mutual understanding between the Turks and the Armenians someday. Only for the good of my own country, and yours. Perhaps most people are doubtful about a chance of ever a reconciliation between the Armenians and the Turks. But I would like to keep on believing...I am, afterall, only seventeen...